PDA

View Full Version : Belgian StGs- Early vs. late proofs, and how many were there anyway???


adam762
October 26, 2008, 22:03
There seems to be no consensus on just how many StG-58 rifles FN made for Austria. I have never heard a firm figure, anyway. With that in mind, the example I just obtained is the highest SN FN produced StG that I've yet seen. For reference, I've also detailed the proofs on the LOWEST FN StG I've seen, my own beautiful 1177.

The high one, SN 22163, came with an FN proofed rear sight and HTS set, just like 1177. Considering that things like gas plugs, charging handles, sights, bipod legs, ect. were frequently changed out during the rifles service life, I do not necessarily place a whole lot of value in these proofs... not as much as, say, the proofs on the lower, or bolt, which were serialized and obviously an original part of the weapon.

So, for the general amusement of the files, and for the sake of what is sure to be some good conversation, I give you these photos.

Starting with the barrel on 22163, here is the left side. Notice no Leige- Odd.
<a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

This is 1177. More like what we're used to seeing. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=1.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/1.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

On 1177, the proofs on the back of the gasblock- <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Similar things on the back of the gasblock of 22163. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=2.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/2.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

I believe the flashiders to be original to both barrels, so I'll include them in the pics. Here is 22163. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

And the Stoll on 1177... <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=3.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/3.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Serial numbers- <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=4.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/4.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

22163 also had some other interesting marks on the barrel. Any help on an ID for these would be great. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=4a.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/4a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

other side <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=4b.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/4b.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

There were proofs on the breech as well. That's not uncommon for Belgian barrels. Help on these proofs would be great, too... sorry for the crappy pic tho.<a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=4c.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/4c.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Then there's the lower receiver. This is 22163, and it looks like any other FN type one lower. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Here is 1177. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=5.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/5.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

1177 around the rear sight. FN proofs visible on the sight aperature. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=6.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

22163 without the sight. The sight provided with the kit (which I have every reason to believe original) is FN proofed as well. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=6.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/6.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

An internal shot of 22163. Not sure what this mark means, or what it is supposed to look like. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=6a.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/6a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

22163 showing the proofs on the back of the lower. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=7.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/7.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> and this one <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=7a.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/7a.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

Here's 1177. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=7.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/7.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

1177 bolt and carrier. Again, very normal, what we're used to seeing with the G1 and BGS rifles. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/?action=view&current=8.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/1177/8.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

22163 is a little different. <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=8.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/8.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> and <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=9.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/9.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a> and then this <a href="http://s260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/?action=view&current=10.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii10/adam762/22163/10.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>







Anyone have a later number Belgian StG? What do you make of the lack of 'standard' FN proofs, such as the Leige? Comments welcome, I hope to learn something with this thread.

adam762
October 26, 2008, 22:31
Looking at it now, the 'l' and the '7' in the 'Kal 7.62' are quite different between the two. Hmm.

EX1
October 26, 2008, 22:42
Hello the top bbl is Steyr.Thanks EX1

adam762
October 26, 2008, 22:46
Originally posted by EX1
Hello the top bbl is Steyr.Thanks EX1

Ok. I believe that, but do you suggest then that it has had a Belgian Gas block and Stoll added, as well as having been numbered to match the rest of the rifle? I do certainly imagine that sort of thing happened in the armory. Can you comment on some of the other proofs found on that barrel? You and Falcon are the two that I am counting on the most to chime in with your knowledge, and I'm pleased to see you here so soon.

EX1
October 26, 2008, 22:55
Hello I have seen a number of STG kits that are matching numbers but with both Belgian and Austrian made parts on them. I would assume that there was a time when Steyr was tooling up and was not able to make all parts yet and Belgium supplied them with parts to build the rifles. FN did this with numerous countries. Look at the Izzy guns with Belgian made receivers but Izzy made bbls and other parts. This is just a guess. Thanks EX1

brunop
October 26, 2008, 23:26
Hey, Adam -

That 'upside-down arrow/chevron' proof mark on the 1177 bolt carrier - is that a Belgian-specific proof? I don't see it on anything besides the top of your carrier.

I have a carrier with that proof on it - it came in a mixed-bag/so-called G1 kit. How many G1s did FN end up making? Thanks, and

Peace.

adam762
October 27, 2008, 00:47
David- Yes, quite likely. Similar then to what then did with Imbel, and why you'll find FN receiver stubs and other FN proofed parts on the Imbel kits running around.

Brunop- Yes, it is an FN specific proof. I can't quite get the name of it to come to mind right away, but it is common on Belgian bolts and carriers. The 1177 bolt does carry the mark, on the left hand side if you look closely.

boman
October 27, 2008, 05:55
Adam, You're # 22 rifle was assembled in Austria and is proofed as such. we can assume it is not part of the original contract. the 1177 rifle is proofed exactly as it should be for a contract rifle assembled in Belgium. I believe both rifles retain the original parts they were assembled with and were only refinished. I'll have to elaborate on this later--see below.

somewhere in my archives I have info that tells what all the little squares and partial squares with numbers mean on the Belgian parts but these and the circles and the triangles and the numbers etc. on all firearms are what I call inspection marks.

It"s 7:00 Am here in Indy and I'm leaving for a week of Grouse hunting in 15min. so will have to get back next weekend. Hope I helped.

Steve

adam762
October 27, 2008, 07:36
I believe both rifles retain the original parts they were assembled with and were only refinished.

It is my understanding that at some point Steyr re arsenaled many StGs, perhaps only the Belgians, as they are the only ones I've ever seen blued. I've been told the blueing was an Austrian finish, not the original Belgian one, and that makes sense too as I've had Belgian StG stuff here that was paint over park just like the G1 parts. I'll have to dig out the later rifle, but the Steyr barrel does look parkerized, rather than blued like the lower receiver.

somewhere in my archives I have info that tells what all the little squares and partial squares with numbers mean on the Belgian parts but these and the circles and the triangles and the numbers etc. on all firearms are what I call inspection marks.

Yes please, that's what I want. I've always known them as inspection proofs as well, but that's been the limit. Posted details on this sort of thing are just not available, and if you could offer them up, it would make a great reference.

Edited to remove retarded comments. I'll pay more attention now, I promise.

brunop
October 28, 2008, 01:15
What is this? I mentioned the arrow/chevron looking thing, and I got the photo & answer from Raspeguy (thanks!).

What is this other mark toward the rat-tail?

brunop
October 28, 2008, 10:43
Cool! So far I have three (3) real G1 parts (Belgian barrel, Belgian carrier, and a G1 bayonet. I'm hoping that my lower turns out to be G1...

Thanks for the help!

Peace.

frontier
October 30, 2008, 22:42
I have a matching numbers STG sr# 43305. The barrel markings match your 22163 with the addition of the number 60 directly behind kal7.62m/m. I believe 60 to be the date it was made.

My front sight has the same markings as yours but my rear sight has none. The bolt has 8 stamps plus the sr # and my carrier is marked on the inside with the numbers 4 and 1.

Just noticed the barrel also has what looks like a C or a lightly stamped 0 on the bottom side and a #7 on the barrel flat.

Lee Carpentieri
October 30, 2008, 23:49
Like EX 1 said, When a country signs contracts to manufacture a weapon in the host country like Austria, South Africa, Canada, USA for trials testing , Argentina, Brazil, United Kingdom, Under contractual agreements with companies like FN, Steyr,Sig and HK you have to buy up to 15% of the smaller hard to manufacture parts from said companies that licensed the host country to manufacture the weapon. Thats why at times you see a Steyr made STG-58 with Belgium parts. Normally 40 years ago it would take about three to five years before a country can start thier own total production of a weapon. Plus depending on how fast a host country needs parts versus manufacturing them, If FN had the spares which they normally did back then from their profit margin of initial contract agreements with supporting hardware over the term of the contracts. I had numerous fal parts kits, But amongst the Stg-58 kits I,ve had several new unissued kits that had Blueing on all parts that were FN marked on all parts of the kit that came from DSA who was the initial importer in the USA from the Austrian government as far as the 75% total purchase of the weapons system and spares and blue prints for the STG-58. I would venture to say that the Blued Stg-58 weapons might have been parade or palace/Governmental guards weapons for sentry duty. They would have been considered to pretty and shiney for combat usage.

adam762
October 31, 2008, 07:55
So I'm learning then that there was a transitional stage, during which production gradually shifted from FN to Steyr, and during which StG rifles may be made up of any combination of FN and steyr produced parts. OK, that makes sense. I has assumed that there was a sharp cutoff, and that Steyr took over completely after the Belgian contract was filled. Apparently not.

Next is the issue of blueing. It is an interesting specualtion, Lee, regarding the use of blued rifles for ceremonial use. I wish we knew for sure. If the blueing was done in Austria, during a re arsenal, the rifles would LOOK brand new. Maybe that is the case. My blued Belgian 1177 came with blued Steyr bipods. That leads me to suspect that it was indeed something done somewhere other than FN. Just a thought. I do really wish I knew more about the blueing, though.

Lee Carpentieri
November 01, 2008, 01:51
Great Pictures Raspeguy, The last picture is the giveaway to the event, Regular Army troops with AUG's in the back ground picture.

Yes, Some of the kits I had, Had flat black paint on the barrels and receiver stubs and lowers, But some had Blued barrels,handguards and muzzle devices with the receiver stubs and lowers in Flat black also. Most countrie always try and save the best or finished in a special finish for palace sentry duty

jugrunner
June 29, 2009, 12:53
I just received a beautiful Belgian STG from Dunk RD ... all matching and blue !!

all parts are Belgian marked - inspectors marks - proof marks - everything - bipod is blued but not marked (that I can see) ... serial # in the 12,000 range

has a general concensus been reached about the bluing ?

I don't see any evidence that my parts have been refinished at any time ...

if it came from FN parked then the parts would have to be polished in Austria before they were blued ... I don't see it !!

270Handiman
August 13, 2009, 21:45
When this thread popped up, I thought Adam's serial number on the later rifle sounded familiar, so I spent this evening digging through my kits to locate my all matching STG kit that i picked up a couple years ago from this board.

Well, when I finally found it, and the reason the serial number sounded familier was clear. My kit is number 22153. Yep, built just 9 rifles before Adams. Chit, they were probably built the same day! I just find that to be interesting. My rifle is clearly stamped 1959 on the receiver stub.

So, our rifles are 50 years old this year! Happy B-day kits!

270

adam762
August 14, 2009, 06:50
Huh, that's kinda cool, 270. Now you have a little more info on it anyway. If you ever want to sell the kit, let me know. Not that I NEED more StGs, but hell, does anyone ever NEED more guns???

Don't answer that...:tongue:

[GER]Rene
August 14, 2009, 08:14
Originally posted by brunop
What is this? I mentioned the arrow/chevron looking thing, and I got the photo & answer from Raspeguy (thanks!).

What is this other mark toward the rat-tail?

Hello brunop,

i'm from germany and i hope u can understand ;)

OK u have a questoin about the stamps on youre bolt carrier.

the arrow is from an proof house in belgium.

look at this on the left side --> proof house stamp / shoot stamp (http://www.waffeninfo.net/waffen/beschuss/beschuss_ausland_2.jpg)

the other stamp with the eagle is an german-armed-forces stamp.

look here (scroll down) --> Stamp No2 (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.muzzle.de/Recht/Beschussverordnung/muzzle_BeschZ03.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.muzzle.de/Recht/Beschussverordnung/beschussverordnung.html&usg=__3ctK_HrXZa0kC6P052WRDBWO6Rw=&h=378&w=500&sz=25&hl=de&start=46&um=1&tbnid=wHGy2ZuRy4UjvM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBeschussamt%2BZeichen%26ndsp%3D21%26h l%3Dde%26sa%3DN%26start%3D42%26um%3D1)

i hope i can help

Regarts from germany!
Rene

270Handiman
August 14, 2009, 08:39
Well, I'm unlikely to sell it.

I am going to take a bunch of pictures next week that will mirror the ones you took of yours for comparison.

270

Powderfinger
August 14, 2009, 10:25
Originally posted by [GER]Rene


Hello brunop,

i'm from germany and i hope u can understand ;)

OK u have a questoin about the stamps on youre bolt carrier.

the arrow is from an proof house in belgium.

look at this on the left side --> proof house stamp / shoot stamp (http://www.waffeninfo.net/waffen/beschuss/beschuss_ausland_2.jpg)

the other stamp with the eagle is an german-armed-forces stamp.

look here (scroll down) --> Stamp No2 (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.muzzle.de/Recht/Beschussverordnung/muzzle_BeschZ03.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.muzzle.de/Recht/Beschussverordnung/beschussverordnung.html&usg=__3ctK_HrXZa0kC6P052WRDBWO6Rw=&h=378&w=500&sz=25&hl=de&start=46&um=1&tbnid=wHGy2ZuRy4UjvM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBeschussamt%2BZeichen%26ndsp%3D21%26h l%3Dde%26sa%3DN%26start%3D42%26um%3D1)

i hope i can help

Regarts from germany!
Rene

Excellent info, and in your first post!
Welcome to the FALFiles.:beer:

[GER]Rene
August 15, 2009, 10:14
Originally posted by Powderfinger


Excellent info, and in your first post!
Welcome to the FALFiles.:beer:

Thank you very much!

Prost!
:beer:

G2
August 16, 2009, 09:17
Originally posted by [GER]Rene


Hello brunop,

i'm from germany and i hope u can understand ;)

OK u have a questoin about the stamps on youre bolt carrier.

the arrow is from an proof house in belgium.

look at this on the left side --> proof house stamp / shoot stamp (http://www.waffeninfo.net/waffen/beschuss/beschuss_ausland_2.jpg)

the other stamp with the eagle is an german-armed-forces stamp.

look here (scroll down) --> Stamp No2 (http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://www.muzzle.de/Recht/Beschussverordnung/muzzle_BeschZ03.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.muzzle.de/Recht/Beschussverordnung/beschussverordnung.html&usg=__3ctK_HrXZa0kC6P052WRDBWO6Rw=&h=378&w=500&sz=25&hl=de&start=46&um=1&tbnid=wHGy2ZuRy4UjvM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBeschussamt%2BZeichen%26ndsp%3D21%26h l%3Dde%26sa%3DN%26start%3D42%26um%3D1)

i hope i can help

Regarts from germany!
Rene

Thank You for the info,
Welcome to the FalFiles:beer: