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View Full Version : short action bolt gun in 5.45X39 ???


Deltaten
September 07, 2008, 09:23
post title sez it all :D
I think I remember hearing that CZ was doing one??
With the glut of inexpensive ammo available, the impresive ballistics of the round ; a sweet little crank-handle in that cal. would be the schnitz for whistle pigs ;)

Guess I could always check the CZ homepage !!! but wanted some input from the RKI's

TIA,
Paul

GW870
September 07, 2008, 11:09
You'n me both, Delta!
I've been considering trying to have one built but haven't made
any kind of a move in that direction. Yet.

GW

Deltaten
September 08, 2008, 08:41
GW:

went to that site. nuthin' but .223 anda .17.. add a 7.62X39 carbine :(
Looks like it's a custom job.
The prices on old Rem 788's are thru the roof. A nice, used .243 was as much as a new CZ in .223 !!!

I have a '74 that's giving me fits AFA function. Might just take a torch to it an salvage the bbl, sell off the rest and recoup. Find a decent short action and gin up the bbl somehow.mebbe even a NEF single w/a bad bore????

any input welcome :D
Paul

GW870
September 08, 2008, 09:58
Paul, I haven't even decided on a donor action - I've been thinking
something in .223 would have the most compatible bolt face - could
be wrong about that. Rumor has it that someone (Pacific, maybe?)
makes barrels. Don't know about avaiibility of chamber reamers.

I ain't even Close to being a gunsmith! And I've been timid about
approaching any of the Files' smiths - I don't know if any of them
would be the least bit interested in building up a bolt gun.

I've been like the old hobo - sittin' around wishing he had a drink
and a cigarette and not gettin' off his butt to go find one!

GW

lew
September 08, 2008, 11:06
Originally posted by GW870
I ain't even Close to being a gunsmith! And I've been timid about
approaching any of the Files' smiths - I don't know if any of them
would be the least bit interested in building up a bolt gun.


The worst that can happen is they say no...


...and laugh in your face, ridicule your parentage, and chase you off the board.

Go ahead, ask.:D

I seem to remember hearing something about the CZ at a local shop, but I could have been hallucinating.

Tsm002
September 08, 2008, 12:41
Didn't the east germans make a bolt gun in 5.45mm?

Growler Gator
September 08, 2008, 15:14
You guys might want to look into this rifle as an option.

East German Steyr Model SSG-82 chambered in 5.45 X 39mm.:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=108168550

Its not mine and I have never owned one, but I saw it on Gunbroker and remembered this thread.

Good luck.

Deltaten
September 08, 2008, 16:21
Thanks Adam..
I went to the auction... over and pulled . $1100 and the reserve not met! A "tactical" STASI sniper unit.. OK steyr hammer forged bbl and world famed optics aside..unk mfgr and nasty target stock don't make a $1500 E.German wall-crawler sniper!! OMG!

but thanks.. all efforts truly appreciated :D

Paul

motosapien
September 08, 2008, 16:49
You wonder what the hell is matter with Remington, Winchester, Savage & Marlin for not producing stainless barreled rifles for the eastern bloc cartridges?

Where are the 8mm, 7.62 x 54R, 5.45 x 39 ? The ammo was all over the place 5 yrs. ago and they could have sold thousands of em.

SSK industries make Encore barrels in some of these so that may be a source.

Otis Treekiller
September 08, 2008, 16:54
Seems like a .223 Savage 110 would be the easiest to convert. Just unlock and screw out the .223 barrel, screw in the 5.45 barrel until it headspaces, and tighten the locking collar.

gunplumber
September 08, 2008, 17:03
Originally posted by motosapien
You wonder what the hell is matter with Remington, Winchester, Savage & Marlin

Too busy producing rifles nobody wants in obscure wildcat calibers.


I wonder if Ruger would do it?

Blackmore
September 08, 2008, 18:45
Originally posted by gunplumber
I wonder if Ruger would do it?

I live in the Lake Sunapee area which is to the east of the Newport plant where the rifles are made. Ever since Mr. Ruger Sr. passed away and Junior cashed/was forced out, the bean counters seem to have taken over. Yes, it is a publicly traded company so there is a "responsibility" to the stockholders, but many models/calibers which may not sell as well as others, but fill out the M77 line are being dropped. The new Frontiers and Hawkeyes are being made only in traditional hunting calibers. There are even rumors of eliminating the Red Label. The M77 MkII in 7.62x39 was only made for a few years and commands a premium when you can find one. Still, it was dropped, too. The SR9 recall has gotten a lot of attention and resources and overall, morale could be better.

The chances for a rifle in what is considered another obscure caliber are slim so I'd say no Ruger 5.45x39 in the future.

tac-40
September 08, 2008, 19:12
What about a barrel blank? Does anyone make a barrel blank that would be the proper bore size? Clymer makes custom chamber reamers IIRC so getting a finish reamer wouldn't be a problem??? All we need is the proper hole in the tube and go from there. There are enough File members with a lathe to thread them for a receiver.

GW870
September 08, 2008, 19:23
Huh.... Sounds as though we'll have to do it ourselves if we
want one, Paul.
I've always thought the Savage 110 was waaay ugly for looks,
but 4plus for getting the job done.

Whadda'ya thiink? Possible starting point?

GW

DYNOMIKE
September 08, 2008, 19:36
Well I like the idea of the 5.45 bolt gun as well as the 5.45 AR and will watch and see what comes up...
Seems a Custom reamer would be the Obvious way to go and getting a Barrel blank should be easy as pie...

Assuming Bolt Face and extractor dimensions are the same as the .223, .222, or .221 the Bolt should be easy as well...

"IF" One can't expect RUGER for example to make the gun why not go with a RUGER M77 & YANK the barrel?

Might be some info here, looks like a SHITLOAD of M77's some of them pretty reasonable..:

Ahhh LINKY NO GOOD...
I just went to G/Broker and types RUGER M77 in the search window and got a BUNCH of pages..

tac-40
September 08, 2008, 20:57
Mike, Stimpy has already figured out and completed his AR74. I am working on mine, just trying to line up a local lathe to thread the barrel.

The bolt gun really hits the curiosity button though.

frontier
September 08, 2008, 21:23
S&W now makes an AR in 5.45

DYNOMIKE
September 08, 2008, 21:24
Originally posted by tac-40
Mike, Stimpy has already figured out and completed his AR74. I am working on mine, just trying to line up a local lathe to thread the barrel.


REALLY!!
Now ya plumb got my attention with that post..
Think I might have to drop you an E-mail for some Details...
Been wanting to do one of those for some time now.. :beer:

dasu
September 08, 2008, 21:28
actually i think HBR machined up one and posted it over on arfcom. Kurts Kustom will do the machine work for the barrel extension and FSB sleeve.

DYNOMIKE
September 08, 2008, 21:33
COOL...
I knew HBR had been working on one but was unsure of his progress to date??
That's Good news on two fronts then.. :wink:

GW870
September 08, 2008, 22:11
WHAT!!!! WHAT!!!!
Are we talking friggin' ARs' here?!! Me and Paul got ARs!!
We're wanting commie Bolt Guns!
Try to stay on track, Y'all!!

(wheeze!)

GW

DYNOMIKE
September 08, 2008, 22:14
I'm trying, just got off track a bit GW...:biggrin:

I am still interested and you will note not ALL my comments have pertained to the AR.. :tongue: :beer:

tac-40
September 09, 2008, 12:57
Okay guys, I found some barrel blanks:


caliber---------5,45x39,5
ext. diam.-----1.181
length--------- 25.8
grooves ------- 4
land diam. -----.213
groove-diam.-- .220
twist-------------8.1
price ------------ 199,50 $

And they can be purchased here:

Lothar Walther Precision Tools, Inc.
3425 Hutchinson Rd.
Cumming, GA 30040

Phone: 770-889-9998
Fax: 770-889-4919
E-Mail:
lotharwalther@ mindspring.com

Link to their website: http://www.lothar-walther.de/html/377.php


Time to start looking for a short action.

gunplumber
September 09, 2008, 13:33
Did ruger make a Model 77 in a .223 length action? Something like the interarms Mk X would be awesome. I agree, despite their relative ugliness, the Savage would be the easiest to work with but it would be nice to have a .223 length action and nothing more.

how does the 5.45 fit in a .223 AR mag? I could try it but I'm lazy.

tac-40
September 09, 2008, 14:50
From Stimpy's AR74 build and reading about others, the rounds will fit in a standard .223(5.56) mag. The only problems that have cropped up is when trying to get more than 10 or 15 rounds in the mag. The case taper is different and can cause problems. Overall length of some of my mil-surp loaded rounds is 2.2275" and the 5.56 OAL is 2.26.

The cartridge base is also a little larger than the .223, requiring the bolt face and possibly the extractor to be modified. This of course depends on the type of action selected. While building a rifle of this type is beyond the capabilities of the average gun guy, anyone with machine shop experience or wildcat cartridge development can easily figure out what is needed to safely complete the build. Finding the "parts" might prove to be the most difficult step in this project.

gunplumber
September 09, 2008, 15:14
I'm inspired! I'd like to try it sometime on a bolt gun - someday when I have some free time . ...

Tsm002
September 09, 2008, 15:31
That would be totally awesome. It's definitely something I'd buy or build, especially in a lightweight rig.

Deltaten
September 09, 2008, 16:34
5.45X39 Barnaul base dia
.394"
5.56X45LC base dia
.3765

extr cut depth/dia. Barnaul
.337
extr cut LC
.330

rim thickness on the 5.45 is a tad thicker and the fwd cut for the extr is a tad farther up the body of the case.

two samples i have are Barnaul 50 gr. at 2.034 LOA
and Barnaul 60 gr. at 2.235
LC 5.56 LOA... 2.25

I dropped mebbe 10 rd of 5.45 into a mil 5.56 mag. Seems to fit! :D

So.. it just depends on the action type. I'd be interested to know what a mini-mk X action goes for???

That or pick up a .222 or .223 rifle and do a bbl for it. Find a .22 hornet bbl.and rechamber is another option.

Onward and upward :D
Paul

DYNOMIKE
September 09, 2008, 16:41
Originally posted by gunplumber
Did ruger make a Model 77 in a .223 length action? Something like the interarms Mk X would be awesome. I agree, despite their relative ugliness, the Savage would be the easiest to work with but it would be nice to have a .223 length action and nothing more.

how does the 5.45 fit in a .223 AR mag? I could try it but I'm lazy.

Mark I "THOUGHT" Ruger made the M77 in .223 but I must admit I can't be sure?
Will look though and see what I can find out...

The SAVAGE rifle is also a Good choice albeit FUGLY.. I bet finding one would be easy though..

motosapien
September 09, 2008, 19:49
I think tomorrow I'm going to get out my AK 74 and put some rounds down range. It was one of Akron's mint kits and it has never malfunctioned. It's light and quick pointing. Perhaps reinventing the wheel is pointless? The mags are only about $10 and of course we all know about how cheap the ammo is.

CZ should come out with a bolt action for us.............

DYNOMIKE
September 09, 2008, 19:54
Originally posted by motosapien
I think tomorrow I'm going to get out my AK 74 and put some rounds down range. It was one of Akron's mint kits and it has never malfunctioned. It's light and quick pointing. Perhaps reinventing the wheel is pointless?

I also have one of WOLFIES Collector Grade kit TANTAL's built by Glen Riddle..
She is in fact an awesome AK no doubt ..

BUT, 5.45 is still reasonable and available plus it's a Great little round..
A Bolt Gun or AR in 5.45 would be a sweet addition IMHO and in a Bolt gun prolly QUITE accurate...

Blackmore
September 10, 2008, 06:35
Originally posted by gunplumber
Did ruger make a Model 77 in a .223 length action?

They do, Mark. 7 different models with barrel lengths from the 16.5" Compact to a 26" Varmint

cookhj
September 10, 2008, 17:27
i think that building a bolt gun in 5.45 would not be that hard.

the hard part would be finding reloading components for it. last i heard no one was really making stuff for it.

bulletslap
September 14, 2008, 22:50
There are a boatload of Remington 599s(?) the Remington retailed mini-mark x in .223 & 7.62 x 39 on the market, there are quite a few CZs out there in those two calibers also.

[486]
September 15, 2008, 20:29
how about sleeving a mosin, they are cheap, get a ak-74 barrel and drill out the mosin barrel to .500 and machine the sleeve to the same and heat the mosin barrel to press fit them, extend the extractor and don't worry about a mag [if the mosin is push feed, I have no idea].

Deltaten
September 15, 2008, 21:22
[486]

sorta what I was thinking.. an adapter made from whatever fits the action and slipfit the '74 bbl into it, headspace as needed and go for it! :D

[486]
September 16, 2008, 17:07
The extractor would be the hardest part, if you have a lathe, now I need a mosin, a ak 74 barrel, and a follow rest for my dad's lathe. :rofl:

Deltaten
September 16, 2008, 21:38
A little judicious Dremel work would have it done in jig time! :D
Gonna hafta look into one o'them Moseens
Paul

[486]
September 17, 2008, 16:30
The ammo ain't much cheaper, but the dislocated shoulders everyone seems to be suffering from seems kinda bad! :tongue:

One mag through a FAL is all I can take before the fun starts tapering off.

koathmann
September 18, 2008, 13:48
cz has actions for sale

tac-40
September 18, 2008, 14:33
cz has actions for sale

Do you have a link for them?

[486]
September 18, 2008, 14:55
Originally posted by koathmann
cz has actions for sale

Barreled actions?

koathmann
September 18, 2008, 15:23
no just actions but 7.62x 39 bolt face should work . I saw them in jerrys sports center wholesale catalog

[486]
September 18, 2008, 15:48
Are the rim diameters the same? People were having trouble finding brass for 5.45...

panzer
September 18, 2008, 15:55
Bolt face on the 7.62 is big, but you can get a ring insert from the 7.62x25 AK conversion guy. ( lichtenberg?? ) makes the 762x39 bolt an ak74 5.45 size. then get a blank extractor if its a mauser type and go. BUT, I would have to think that a 5.56 bolt face would be easy to open up a few thou to work. They do the same thiing to make 45-70 work in the siamese actions. Very cool concept!! if you build them, I want one!

panzer
September 18, 2008, 15:58
Originally posted by [486]
Are the rim diameters the same? People were having trouble finding brass for 5.45...

Different size. If it came down to it you could pull the military loads and use the primed case to load your own. problem you might have is twist rate. The 5.45 normal load is about 50 grains or so, but is LONG. the same weight in a varmint bullet will be shorter. Twist is more about length of projectile than weight. Heavy bullets just normally are longer. An all lead version of the military projectile is in the 65-70 grain weight class...

Deltaten
September 18, 2008, 19:28
The Barnaul HP's I have are shorter than the 60 gr Wolf HP by about .20";' considerably shorter.
I was thinkin some of them little Hornet pills, tho they *are* only 40 gr!

Guess I'm stuck with only the two or three thousand rounds that I have. Orta be 'nuff :D

panzer
September 18, 2008, 19:40
The 1-8 twist they seem to have in AK format might work out for that wieght. Do you have any russian or bulgarian military rds? pull one of those to make a fair comparison and see what the design intent was. 1-8 is pretty quick though....

[486]
September 18, 2008, 21:49
So 5.45 has the 9mm luger size rim?

panzer
September 18, 2008, 21:55
Sorta, but not exactly. the 9mm rim is close to 5.56 and is close to a 5.45. You might be able to get away with it to a point. I do know that AK74 bolts are used in the 9mm conversions as well as 7.62x25 ones. A 5.56 bolt might work with minimal tweaking. I would think Tolerence stacking in your favor would be something to consider as well.

As for 5.45 AR's there are dedicated mags for them in 5.45, and I have heard on here somewhere long ago that the Browmells mags in 5.56 wil hold and feed reliably 28 rds of 5.45.

[486]
September 19, 2008, 06:21
Originally posted by panzer

As for 5.45 AR's there are dedicated mags for them in 5.45, and I have heard on here somewhere long ago that the Browmells mags in 5.56 wil hold and feed reliably 28 rds of 5.45.

Stimpsonjcat [spelling?] said that, with the 5.45 AR. I wonder how to clean the gas system, and the whole inside of the receiver after every shooting trip...

panzer
September 19, 2008, 16:42
Mix Ballistol with water 1-10 ratio, spray down after the shooting till it flows from everything good. then clean as normal when you get home. Thats how I clean any corrosive ammo firearms, never had issues. And its easy....

[486]
September 19, 2008, 19:54
But with direct gas, the salts get everywhere, probably even in the buffer tube, those never get cleaned, they are often forgotten...

panzer
September 19, 2008, 23:05
You have to be on top of you game with autos and corrosive ammo.... I shoot my Hakim and FN49 with corrosive ammo, its a process to clean those two. But worth it. They destroy brass so reloading is wasted event..

[486]
September 20, 2008, 10:21
Originally posted by panzer
I shoot my Hakim and FN49 with corrosive ammo,

Oh noes! I generally think of corrosive as bolt gun ammo, only gets in one place mainly... must be just that I don't like risks, no matter how slight

rcnpthfndr
October 03, 2008, 08:44
i was looking at doing this before on a charles daly mini mauser action before remington bought them out. you can find mini arms actions for under 320.00 at the local funshows in PA. i am tdy in MS again, and looking for them at the funshow this weekend in laurel, MS.

as for the bolt, i was going to use pacific tool & gauge, they can make custom bolts for any rifle. midwayusa sell bolt body blanks, but i am not sure if they have 5.45.

this might be a good start for the bolt;

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=665074&t=11082005

i wonder what the optimal barrel length is for this cartridge?

panzer
October 03, 2008, 12:15
I would have thought it would be 16-18 inches, seeing as it was designed for an AK.. 18 would be a handy length for a little bolt gun.

ftierson
October 03, 2008, 12:49
I think that I might do a 5.45x39mm bolt gun...

Starting with a Lothar Walther barrel blank, I'll pick up a Weatherby Vanguard (Howa) in .223 Rem., pull the barrel (and save it for one of my other Howa manufactured .223 Rem. rifles) for the action, open the bolt face slightly and, once scrounging up a chamber reamer, I should be good to go...

Shouldn't even be that expensive, especially since I should be able to recoup the reamer cost from additional builds...

And for now, I won't worry about reloading the cartridge. The components would cost more than the surplus ammo now available even if the components were readily available.

And, as an aside, if you haven't set a bunch of the cheap 5.45x39mm M74 ammo aside for the future, you haven't been thinking much about the future...

Forrest

panzer
October 03, 2008, 12:57
Originally posted by ftierson


Shouldn't even be that expensive, especially since I should be able to recoup the reamer cost from additional builds...

Forrest

SUCH as MINE?? I think it really is as simple as you describe it. Figure up a cost if you would, and where you got everything. I might do the same thing. I have never built up a bolt gun and would like to try it as a winter project. Might have to rent that reamer from you.... ;)

rcnpthfndr
October 03, 2008, 20:04
what about a savage short action, that way you can change bolt heads, barrels and have a switch caliber gun. i will watch this, i have 3 savage Target/FTR actions, and 2 remington 700sa 223 actions in the safe at home. this would be a neat project and gun to help cull the coyotes on my new ranch.

troubleticket
October 03, 2008, 20:06
Has anybody thought about a single shot?

A barrel for a TC or a rebarrel of an H&R should

not be too costly.


that way, if you start out with a 22" barrel

and cut it down 1" at a time, you could generate

some usefull data.

It would be really handy too.

My 2c,

YMMV

J

bykerhd
October 03, 2008, 20:49
Is there ANY commercial ammo or components available for this 5.45 x 39 cartridge in this country ?
I mean it IS an interesting round. But, with only an unknown quantity of military ammo available, it seems like a less than worthwhile investment. Except as fodder for an AK build.

To buy the different parts and pieces for a bolt action rifle build won't be cheap. Having a gunsmith alter some parts and build it is lots more money.
To what purpose ?

Basing a wildcat on the 7.62 x 39 cartridge necked to take .224 bullets would make a lot more sense. But, there are already TONs of excellent cartridges in that caliber and probably already one like that developed. At least .224 bullets are available in a wide variety of weights and designs.

rcnpthfndr
October 03, 2008, 21:42
Originally posted by bykerhd

Basing a wildcat on the 7.62 x 39 cartridge necked to take .224 bullets would make a lot more sense. But, there are already TONs of excellent cartridges in that caliber and probably already one like that developed. At least .224 bullets are available in a wide variety of weights and designs.

that would be close to the .220 russian

"..The .220 Russian (5.6x39mm) cartridge was developed in the late 1950's for deer hunting in Russia. It is a 7.62x39 cartridge necked down to hold a 5.6mm bullet. It was later adopted by Finland, and by around 1965 was being produced by SAKO & Lapua. When it was introduced to the United States, Sako, & later Lapua, brass was stamped ".220 Russian".

Deltaten
October 03, 2008, 23:03
The 220 Russian was a real hot item for a while in the Mettallic silhouette game back about 87 or so.
I have an empty case or two around in the "collection" While it may have been sweet in a TC single; I don't believe it would fare too well in a bolt gun. Feed problems?? I dunno.
Next thing is ;ya can get virtually identical (or better) perfomance with less powder in the 5.45; so....Since I already have a lifetime's supply of 5.45 stashed :D

ftierson
October 03, 2008, 23:36
Originally posted by Deltaten
The 220 Russian was a real hot item for a while in the Mettallic silhouette game back about 87 or so.
I have an empty case or two around in the "collection" While it may have been sweet in a TC single; I don't believe it would fare too well in a bolt gun. Feed problems?? I dunno.
Next thing is ;ya can get virtually identical (or better) perfomance with less powder in the 5.45; so....Since I already have a lifetime's supply of 5.45 stashed :D

There certainly is that...

Who needs to worry about reloading?

If good components become available, GREAT...!

If not, oh well...:)

Forrest