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Arizona Highlander
August 20, 2008, 09:39
Someone got murdered with a .40 handgun, so police began investigating the owners of .40 handguns.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080820_12_A1_hOSBIa443762

From the above article:

Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation agents knew the caliber of the guns used in the killings, so they merely checked with area gun dealers and pawnshops to determine who had bought or recently pawned .40-caliber Glocks . . .

Consequently, the OSBI sent letters to all those gun owners, asking them to voluntarily submit their weapons for test firings over the weekend at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah . . .

About 40 of those gun owners showed up on Saturday and Sunday, and their weapons were fired once or twice and then returned to them . . .

The other 15 or so gun owners who did not show up will be checked by the OSBI to see why they didn't volunteer for the test firings.

"They can have any number of reasons" for not volunteering, Brown said. "They could be against it, they could be anti-government, or they eventually may want to help."
Now, I’ve got mixed feelings about this. Of course, the Oklahoma cops want to catch a murderer . . . but it seems as if, in the process of doing so, they’re creating a regional firearms database.

Manedwolf
August 20, 2008, 09:48
What, did they actually pull the 4473's now?!

And hello, MOST CRIME GUNS ARE NOT BOUGHT LEGALLY! And what murderer is going to turn theirs in for a test firing?!

On Monday, when the OSBI announced that it had test-fired weapons, it stated in its press release that it had sent letters to the "registered gun owners."

That prompted concern Tuesday among many in the public, who noted that Oklahoma does not have a gun-registry law nor a central database of gun owners.

Tom Harris, an agent with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in Tulsa, confirmed that.

THEY DO NOW!

vmtz
August 20, 2008, 09:52
Bill of sale.

Fr. Vince

StarPD
August 20, 2008, 10:22
Oh yeah, I'll voluntarily submit my gun for testing. I'll be there at 5 AM Sunday morning. If I don't show up, just wait, I'll be along.

S2rt
August 20, 2008, 10:31
Originally posted by StarPD
Oh yeah, I'll voluntarily submit my gun for testing. I'll be there at 5 AM Sunday morning. If I don't show up, just wait, I'll be along.

... and they better have a money for my gas, and coffee and donuts!

Arizona Highlander
August 20, 2008, 10:51
From what I’ve been able to gather, the cops seem to be theorizing that the murderer may have wanted to dispose of the “hot” gun he used in the murder, so he perhaps dropped it off at a pawn shop.

It’s not a bad theory, and it might make some kind of sense to check on the people who pawned .40 Glocks shortly after the murder was committed. But . . . it appears that the police have instead decided to “investigate” people who bought .40 Glocks AFTER the murder had already been committed, test-fire the guns, get ballistic samples, and then work backwards from there.

Which seems, to me, like a careless, almost random approach that will likely yield little fruit - especially since there’s absolutely no guarantee that the murder weapon is even among those 60 pawned Glocks.

And the scariest part? Those 15 or so cranky old gun owners who refused to cooperate with the cops (and likely did so on principle, figuring that it was none of the government’s damn business) are now probably considered murder suspects by the police!

Blackmore
August 20, 2008, 11:12
It's like in the UK when there is a rape and all the neighbourhood males are "invited" (read coerced) to come in and give a DNA sample to eliminate themselves as suspects.

SOOOO, innocent or not, your DNA is now in the registry.

As for those 40 innocent .40 owners, now the S/N and unique ballastics of each of their guns are in a registry, too.

123
August 20, 2008, 11:18
Nothing to fear right? Step right up.. your friendly LE is just trying to find a murderer.. you want to help don't ya?

It's not like they could screw up the ballistic fingerprinting or just get lazy and declare they found a match so they can close the case..

:|

Manedwolf
August 20, 2008, 11:22
Originally posted by S2rt


... and they better have a money for my gas, and coffee and donuts!

I think trying to take a donut from the box at a police station would get much the same response as trying to grab an officer's gun from their holster.

Cyclic
August 20, 2008, 15:27
How about OK takes and tests EVERY officers weapons and rule out the jack booted thugs FIRST!

When you come for mine, don't bother I'm not sure where its at right now. Go fish...........

fastfreddy
August 20, 2008, 16:09
How about a polite RSVP thanking them for the invitation but giving regrets that attendance will not be likely. Maybe to include honorable assurances that I'm not the one you're looking for. I think a nice floral pattern for the response card would be festive.

There's no need to be rude!

If y'all still believe the fairy tale about law enforcement not having a very comprehensive firearms database, you're fooling yourselves. There have been too many of these "fishing lists" trotted out in response to this or that crime in a wide variety of states. All they need now are ballistic fingerprints to add to the massive databases. They're working on that.

Blackmore
August 20, 2008, 16:41
Almost forgot...

ratas calientes
August 20, 2008, 21:02
So what happens if there is a "false positive?" http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

2barearms
August 21, 2008, 21:00
There is nothing new here, they grabbed all the 4473's in a 3 state area during the Black Muslim Sniper debacle in DC, Maryland and Viginia. They
had asked people to turn in their neighbors who owned weapons.
But hey, they were too busy torturing white middle aged guys driving white
delivery vans. If you owned a 40 of the same make and made in the same
time frame you probably should have your alibi ready.

ephv
August 21, 2008, 21:59
Buy off paper.

2barearms
August 21, 2008, 22:11
I can see it now, Houston, we've had a Murder, the perp used a 10'' assault
knife. Let's get our people over to Target, Walmart and Williams-Sonoma
and get the paperwork on anyone who bought a 10" assault knife.

So does this now mean that every time there is a murder all gun owners are
going to have to SUBMIT to an examination, WTF is going on with the asshats.

John Culver
August 22, 2008, 13:47
Originally posted by ratas calientes
So what happens if there is a "false positive?" http://chilirat.com/emoticons/chilirat.gif

as is often the case in ballistics testing.

which ha been proved to be inaccuraate at best.

BUFF
August 23, 2008, 02:28
As a 5 year veteran of my department's robbery-homicide unit, I can tell you that they are grasping at straws in Oklahoma to be doing this.

Aifwikir
August 23, 2008, 09:35
I live just across the border in Arkansas from where this happened. There were 2 calibers used in this shooting of 2 - 10 year old girls. They haven't said for sure what the other caliber weapon was but the .40 S&W is definate. The first thing I thought when I read the news paper report was "POLICE STATE". The murders are horrendous but nothing justifies these tactics.

:D
Aif

JohnnyV1966
August 23, 2008, 09:59
I think its outrageous. Like I am supposed to take time out of my busy day to comply with their outrageous demands, every time another someone is killed, when I have nothing to do with it seems so unreasonable it shocks the conscience.

Where did these cops get their schooling the Joeseph Stalin School of Good Government perhaps. This is just another reason why governmental immunity needs to be changed with behavior like this.

Those cops and their leadership should be facing Termination and Jail time for abusing the rights of their fello citizens.

StoneyCreekMrMauser
August 23, 2008, 11:44
What about other evidence at the crime scene? Why not do their jobs instead of making everyone else do it for them? Lazy, I tell you... What socialism breeds.

RG Coburn
August 23, 2008, 11:44
What would keep somebody from just swapping out the barrel and firing pin,maybe the extractor? After that,theres no signature to apply a certain pistol to a certain crime.Heck,dremel polish the parts changes the signature.What are these cops smoking?

StarPD
August 23, 2008, 12:01
Heh, heh, some people keep spare barrels and put the spare in the gun, so they can replace the factory one. Same for FP and extractor. Why, some of those actually polish the chamber and breech face.

Now, I wouldn't do such a thing, but I hear tell some others might.

bakerjw
August 23, 2008, 12:49
Originally posted by Blackmore
Almost forgot...

+1

1911guy
August 23, 2008, 13:15
".40 caliber, what .40 caliber. Sold that thing years ago. Have a nice day gentlemen".

Never, ever volunteer anything, never give signed statements, never say more than administrative information.

English Mike
August 23, 2008, 18:30
Originally posted by 1911guy
".40 caliber, what .40 caliber. Sold that thing years ago. Have a nice day gentlemen".



That'll land you in the poop if it isn't the truth & at some point you are found to still have the gun.

What "don't talk to the Police" means is just that.

Telling porkies has the potential to make YOU into a suspect.

fastfreddy
August 23, 2008, 18:45
That's wise advice.

You have the right to remain silent

That does not mean cook up some sly story to "outwit" the man. You'll dig yourself into a hole and become public enemy #1. They'll go Martha Stewart on your ass. Anything you say CAN and WILL be used against you.... no matter how ridiculous.

"Silent" means shut your pie hole.

xcpd69
August 23, 2008, 19:25
Interesting how there seems more outrage over a voluntary request than there is over two little dead girls left in a ditch, riddled with bullets.

That is a very isolated area and I know what I'm talking about. I spent a lot of time at my great grandparents farm, in the 60's, just north of there on the same road. Not likely to see anyone around there except locals.

My gut feeling is they stumbled on someone they knew, doing something they shouldn't have. Multiple guns, multiple shooters, isolated location, screams drug transaction.

English Mike
August 23, 2008, 19:32
Originally posted by xcpd69
Interesting how there seems more outrage over a voluntary request than there is over two little dead girls left in a ditch, riddled with bullets.

That is a very isolated area and I know what I'm talking about. I spent a lot of time at my great grandparents farm, in the 60's, just north of there on the same road. Not likely to see anyone around there except locals.

My gut feeling is they stumbled on someone they knew, doing something they shouldn't have. Multiple guns, multiple shooters, isolated location, screams drug transaction.

Don't get me wrong Lonny; I'm not advocating refusing to help by having a firearm tested in this case.
What I'm saying is that if you aren't willing to submit a firearm for testing, then don't lie about it. Doing so can not only lead to problems for the liar but also divert attention away from finding the REAL perpetrators.

xcpd69
August 23, 2008, 20:03
I agree, Mikey. Wasn't pointing a finger at you, just "the usual suspects.." :rofl:

Just LOVE Casablanca, doesn't everyone?

Oh, and to throw a bone in the dog pen, the .40 cal Glock is a very common weapon in this area. Lots of LE Agencies use them, as is common nationwide. There are also a boatload of EX-LE trade-in .40 Glocks floating around as well.

They're about as common as S&W K frames were in days of yore.

My gut feeling is they WILL find them. BUT probably not through the voluntary thing. Or any aspect of it, i.e. refusals.

Manedwolf
August 23, 2008, 22:50
Media slant is on "Wouldn't it be nice if there was registration?" You can bet that will be the push in Congress.

In a state that doesn't require gun registration, officials have had to canvas local pawn shops to check sales records for Glocks. They compiled a list of 60 gun owners and tested the weapons of about 40 last weekend. But they still need to test more.

As of today, police are continuing to harass the law-abiding gun owners who understand the fourth and fifth amendments.

Officials said they were checking up with the remaining 20 gun owners to see why they chose not to have their weapons tested. "We just want people to cooperate so we can find this weapon, and then the person who had it in his hand," Brown said.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,408781,00.html

1911guy
August 24, 2008, 05:29
My initial statement was a tongue-in -cheek comment. You are absolutely correct and I stand by the concept of saying nothing, volunteering nothing.

Pluribus
August 24, 2008, 08:56
Johnny Law: Hello Mr. Pluribus, we'd like to examine and, test your glock fo'tty.

Me: Do you have a warrant or, am I under arrest?

Johnny Law: No.

Me: Then you have no need to interfere with my lawful activities/conveyance. Good day and, good luck.

Johnny Law: ???????????

EinheitElf
August 24, 2008, 10:16
I agree with all the pointers and tips and the WRONG way the OK police are doing this investigation and data colllecting.:mad:

NOW what REALLY concerns me is..........WHAT WORTHLESS POS piece of rejected human dna would murder 2 little 10 yr old girls!?:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Probably some molester,ILLEGAL CRIMIGRANT, or INSANE member of the family. I would hope that when they catch the ass, they let the FAMILY deal with the perp as they see fit....personally they would be........and........and.........feel free to insert your favorite punishment....:mad: :fal:

I hate hearing of these things and wish that is it were possible, if I had a child, I would train them soon as reasonably possible, to use at least a .22 pistol and -here is the part- get them a CCW permit. I would love to see the look on a abductors face when little Cindy pulls out a ruger mark one a pops the guy in the nuts,kneecap or other vital area.....:wink: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Pluskat
August 24, 2008, 11:17
As a 5 year veteran of my department's robbery-homicide unit, I can tell you that they are grasping at straws in Oklahoma to be doing this.

and doing a damn good job of further alienating the very citizens that in the past WERE pro-LE.

Manedwolf
August 24, 2008, 14:17
Originally posted by Pluribus
Johnny Law: Hello Mr. Pluribus, we'd like to examine and, test your glock fo'tty.

Me: Do you have a warrant or, am I under arrest?

Johnny Law: No.

Me: Then you have no need to interfere with my lawful activities/conveyance. Good day and, good luck.

Johnny Law: ???????????

Yes, and according to what they're saying, if they get that answer, they continue to harass the citizen.

John Culver
August 25, 2008, 00:00
Originally posted by Manedwolf


Yes, and according to what they're saying, if they get that answer, they continue to harass the citizen.

Should be laws against that.

Ahh thats right, they dont apply to the govt

StarPD
August 25, 2008, 11:11
This is what we get for not participating in government.
Look in the mirror.

twodog
August 25, 2008, 16:59
This is nothing new and Fm 4473's have been used legally in criminal investigations for years. Odd that most gun owners didn't know they could do this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Form_4473
A Firearms Transaction Record, or Form 4473, is a United States government form that must be filled out when a person purchases a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (such as a gun shop).

The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS.[citation needed]

The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states force individual sellers to sell through dealers.

These forms are given the same status as a tax return under the Privacy Act of 1974 and cannot be disclosed to private parties or government officials without a proper warrant.

Director John Milius portrayed his concerns over the Form 4473 in his film Red Dawn, where it is specifically mentioned as being used by an invading Soviet army to track down civilians who own guns.

lngnmn
August 25, 2008, 18:24
Should be laws against that.

There are, but when was the last time a gov. official was held accountable for violating the rights of citizens? I can't remember one whose been tried for it!

Also when the citizens surrender their rights to the gov. it's not a violation on the gov.s part, those people willingly flushed their rights down the shitter.
If all those owners had a spine and didn't submit to the "test" what would the police have done? They would have had to do their job by actually investigating a crime on their own and not rely on the easy convenient lazy methods they prefer!

John Culver
August 25, 2008, 18:45
Originally posted by twodog
This is nothing new and Fm 4473's have been used legally in criminal investigations for years. Odd that most gun owners didn't know they could do this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Form_4473
A Firearms Transaction Record, or Form 4473, is a United States government form that must be filled out when a person purchases a firearm from a Federal Firearm License holder (such as a gun shop).

The Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law. Lying on this form is a felony and can be punished by up to five years in prison in addition to fines, even if the transaction is simply denied by the NICS.[citation needed]

The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

If a person purchases a firearm from a private individual who is not a licensed dealer, the purchaser is not required in most states to complete a Form 4473, though some states force individual sellers to sell through dealers.

These forms are given the same status as a tax return under the Privacy Act of 1974 and cannot be disclosed to private parties or government officials without a proper warrant.

Director John Milius portrayed his concerns over the Form 4473 in his film Red Dawn, where it is specifically mentioned as being used by an invading Soviet army to track down civilians who own guns.

And illegally, ie NO WARRANT.

thedrickel
August 25, 2008, 23:22
How did they make the leap from ".40 handgun" to ".40 Glock" ???

FTW2012
August 25, 2008, 23:49
Originally posted by thedrickel
How did they make the leap from ".40 handgun" to ".40 Glock" ???

Good question!

I would want to see a warrant that shows cause for this search of private property.

John Culver
August 26, 2008, 00:39
type of rifling in a glock unique?

ftierson
August 26, 2008, 00:47
Originally posted by John Culver
type of rifling in a glock unique?

Somewhat...

Forrest

EinheitElf
August 26, 2008, 02:09
Hmmmmm wonder where I can get a smoothbore barrel for my glock??????:eek: :eek: :wink: :wink: :biggrin: :biggrin:

That is why shotties are good..cannot get ballistics off a smoothbore....at least not easily:eek:



....also knives are a good idea,BIG FUKOFF SHINEY ones....shiit em right up.....guns for show,knives for a pro......:biggrin:

Sorry, that clip from 'Lock,Stock and Two Smoking Barrels' popped in my head.

Realistically .......that is why I just placed a couple decals on my 'storage area that states 'Explosives inside,do not drill,pry, or attempt to force this safe open'......let them chew on THAT.......get a fuggin warrant and proof ya donut and coffee flunky.

Living where I do...I know nothing...like sargent schultz. I 'volunteer' NOTHING...can you come in??......NO. Can I inspect your weapon?...saw this at a range......but not to me........NO ..........................

John Culver
August 26, 2008, 12:03
Originally posted by EinheitElf
Hmmmmm wonder where I can get a smoothbore barrel for my glock??????:eek: :eek: :wink: :wink: :biggrin: :biggrin:

That is why shotties are good..cannot get ballistics off a smoothbore....at least not easily:eek:





That is why a smoothbore pistol is illegal

xcpd69
August 26, 2008, 12:55
Originally posted by thedrickel
How did they make the leap from ".40 handgun" to ".40 Glock" ???

Spent cartridge cases, I would think. The Glocks have a unique firing pin indent.

fastfreddy
August 26, 2008, 13:26
Originally posted by John Culver


That is why a smoothbore pistol is illegal

is that true?

John Culver
August 26, 2008, 14:32
Originally posted by fastfreddy


is that true?

It is an NFA item (AOW)

twodog
August 26, 2008, 17:51
Originally posted by John Culver


And illegally, ie NO WARRANT.
If the BATF is participating in a criminal investigation they don't need a warrant to get the Fm 4473 or FFL bound book. Federal law already says they can request a copy of a Fm 4473 or the FFL's bound book if they need it for a criminal investigation. They routinely check them for compliance and don't need a warrant for that. Any other local, state or federal government entity would need a warrant....unless the got the BATF involved. Nice way to get around needing a warrant/court order.

EinheitElf
August 26, 2008, 22:45
Yea smoothbore pistols are an AOW, I was merely making a point that there are ways around ballistic testing IF someone was planning to do something like murder anyway...but I guess it is a good thing that there are so few evil really smart criminals. I guess if someone was a PROFESSIONAL hitman then they would do something 'more exotic' or at least know of a way to defeat testing.

I still call and agree that the tactics being used are BULL SHIIT!:mad:

As an aside, I remember the pistol rounds that were basically shotshells for snakes,but the rifling in the barrels made the shot rotate and spread SO fast that it seems anything outside of like 7-10 feet was basically not going to get hit much. If you live in such an area where there are constant threats than a smooth bore pistol would be work. Hey would a black powder /cap and ball revolver with a smoothbore be considered an AOW? Since the CaB revolvers are not ttreated as 'regular' handguns? Just curious now.

Tsm002
August 26, 2008, 23:34
You'd be able to pull ballistics off the wound pattern and casing from the shotshell pistol rounds.

The pattern of the pellets (if you want to call them that, they're pretty small usually) would indicate the short barrel being used and the distance, esp. in a rifled barrel or rifled choke which is what you'd see.

I'm not saying it'd be a slam dunk- far from it. But it is absolutely something a competent examiner could use to try to tie such a round used to an individual handgun or to at least narrow it down to that type of round.

Such rounds also tend to leave interesting residue in the barrel. Try it next time you shoot one- sometimes little plastic bits (if using the CCI) or odd chamber residue patterns (if using crimped in style brass ones) are left over.

AGAIN, and I have to say this, far from a slam dunk, but any examiner worth half his/her salt is going to think of it.

As I understand it smoothbore bp handguns are not considered illegal. Look at the bp shotguns with no stock and short barrels available for way too much money at cabelas and such. Would be interesting to see what kind of blast and smoke would erupt from such a beast :O

Just food for thought.

DarkEarth
August 27, 2008, 17:13
How did you guys turn this into a "how to hide your gun from a murder charge" thread?

English Mike
August 27, 2008, 17:34
Originally posted by DarkEarth
How did you guys turn this into a "how to hide your gun from a murder charge" thread?

Ain't seen a thread yet that stayed wholly on course much past the first page.:wink:

EinheitElf
August 27, 2008, 22:50
Not intending to DE ,just some points of interest or questions coming up and I guess showing ,in a way, what a dumb way the investigation is going on in order to find the murderer.

my comments on the pistol shot shell/BP black powder question occurred because i remember my dad taking us to the desert and he would have a .22 pistol with sometimes the CCI and sometimes the crimped shells. I remember shooting them at cans and what the results were......

Back to topic-:shades: :D

Heat
August 28, 2008, 00:10
Originally posted by ENGLISH MIKE


Ain't seen a thread yet that stayed wholly on course much past the first page.:wink:
Al we need to do now is bring up Black helicopters, CFR, Tri-lateral commission, Vatican and the jews/Israel/Palestinians and it will be a complete thread with all the fixins'! :rolleyes:

1MOR
August 28, 2008, 07:39
I wonder if they have thought about testing all LEO Glock 40 cals? Beyond that suggestion, I am out of tinfoil.:D :D :D

John Culver
August 28, 2008, 12:46
Originally posted by 1MOR
I wonder if they have thought about testing all LEO Glock 40 cals? Beyond that suggestion, I am out of tinfoil.:D :D :D

that would cross the blue line

Tsm002
August 28, 2008, 17:34
Just for that scenario glock makes a barrel called the "Miami Barrel" that has a small burr in the rifling- not enough to affect accuracy but enough to make a unique mark on recovered projectiles.

The barrel can be bought by us civilians at various outlets, but is pretty uncommon and some cop shops won't sell it to us.

Any prudent police department that issues a .40 glock would probably do well to order such a barrel. It would at least narrow things down a bit- and if someone tries to buy and use one in a crime to implicate an officer, that would narrow it even further and be even more damning evidence once it was found out.

No idea why more police departments do not adopt this concept.

AFTE likes it quite a bit, as I understand it.

http://www.ombexpress.com/product~sku~GA322.asp

Tak
August 28, 2008, 21:06
Originally posted by Pluribus
Johnny Law: Hello Mr. Pluribus, we'd like to examine and, test your glock fo'tty.

Me: Do you have a warrant or, am I under arrest?

Johnny Law: No.

Me: Then you have no need to interfere with my lawful activities/conveyance. Good day and, good luck.

Johnny Law: ???????????

They'll come back full-ninja Nazi style at 4am with a no knock warrant based on reasonable cause due to your 'evasive attitude and suspicious nature' signed by some a-hole judge and haul you away.

Forrester
August 29, 2008, 19:05
can you say wheel gun???

Deltaten
August 29, 2008, 23:06
Anybody remember the mess caused when ATF got ahold of FACs MAK bbl list??
Or the brilliant idea to put "taggant" in powder to track ammo?
The vaunted Canadian plan that was pushed into oblivion after untold billions were spent?

All bad ideas, some executed poorly and some abandoned finally because they were blatantly idiotic. Starting a database now; with how-many-millions of guns already out there, is sheer folly.

We should petiton the .gov to actually "print" each and every gun held by police agencies BEFORE they start on ours.

Paul