Buy Ammo, Get A Visit At Midnight [Archive]

Munster30

August 15, 2008, 11:25

The party that controls the State of Maryland, the same party that controls the City of Chicago and wants control of the congress and white house.
Here's what gun owners have to look forward to, this happened in Maryland when the writer purchased ammo and was "flagged" by the system which resulted in a visit from a State police SWAT Team at midnight:
Last night at 12:30 pm a MD State Police "Armed Response Team" showed up at our door. I was dead asleep, my Wife was laying some ceramic tile on our basement floor when our driveway alert went off several times. She looked at the camera monitor and screamed that Police in Assault gear were running up to our front door. That made me sit straight up from a dead sleep.

We thought they were there for my Brother in Law who had just been mailed Bench Warrants to our home, but he doesn't live here and he is already incarcerated, so my Wife opened the door for them. Then I heard one of them say he had some papers for me or needed to speak with me,so I got up to speak with them 6 or 7 officers in full assault vests, etc. and NO ONE in uniform. Four heavily armed police came into the house while at least two others walked around outside of our home.

One, began to talk to me asking me about the types of weapons I own. Remember now, I was just startled from a dead sleep and I kept asking why are you here, why do you want to know about my guns? Every gun I bought in Maryland I bought from a MD Dealer. Well this Trooper said that I had purchased a "large amount" of ammunition recently and wanted to know why. When I questioned why he was asking, then he changed his tune to what type of Handguns I had. I told him I just purchased my first handgun in Maryland last week, but had not even picked it up from the Store . He questioned me about other handguns I might own and I realized that he was "fishing" to match his list of my ammunition purchases with handguns that I owned. Then I told him about my C&R license that I had purchased 2 with that but was not required to register them with ST. Police. Moreover, I told him it was the MD. ST. Police who approved me as a "designated collector" so why are they here in storm trooper fashion at 12:30 pm maybe to kill me because I legally bought some handgun ammo? He told me that most of the ammo I purchased was for weapons that they had no record of me having registered so the "SYSTEM" Flagged me. Flagged me for what? Death, Harassment at midnight by 7 Storm Troopers?

I asked, "... does your system know that it is stupid to buy ammo with your own ID if your are going to do something illegal, Does your system know that I have a C&R and can buy weapons of various calibers without your knowledge, Does your system know that you yourselves registered me as a designated collector, who "collects" so it is not unusual for me to buy any type or manner of ammunition and finally, Does your system know that it is NOT illegal to purchase handgun ammunition in the State of Maryland whether or not you own that caliber handgun?"

The Trooper (plain clothes), had a list of ammo calibers that he referred to and I agreed, there's no secret that I bought the ammo, but so what? And I'm still not sure of the States definition of a "large amount". Look, I'm not outfitting a Militia, hate group, or giving it to someone who can't buy it, or even buy ammo for a stolen weapon I don't want to register. Any weapon I have every owned has either been purchased at a Gun Store or I personally knew the individual I bought it from and its origin. And, last time I looked it is not illegal to buy handgun ammo, even if you don't own the caliber weapon OR you don't own a weapon at all !! So unless the law is changed, Police cannot harass people who do so.

That being said, the young Trooper told me I "should" voluntarily register all my weapons or this would happen again... because the "system" flagged me. And another thing, he kept asking where I kept my weapons, in a safe? I never answered him and he asked me three separate times as to the locations of any weapons I might have. I got the distinct impression he wanted me to voluntarily let him see/inspect the handguns for the calibers I bought ammo for, but I was ready for that. No warrant, no see. I mean, I would hope you could trust the Police, but why should I let six or seven or so strangers know where I keep guns? If indeed I had the calibers he was inquiring about?

The point here though, is that Police came to my home without a warrant, dressed to kill, trying to intimidate me about something that is NOT illegal !! This was not an Interview it was an interrogation under duress.

Funny the last thing he said to me before leaving was "... Mr. Curtis, sorry to have HARASSED you, you have a good night."

http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2008/08/from-dept-of-make-em-mad.html

John Culver

August 15, 2008, 12:09

and people wonder why we dont like cops.

Thats ridiculous, and I would say unconstitutional.

Bruce Allen

August 15, 2008, 12:17

I will have to say that is real garbage (the midnight visit)..

What strikes me the officers decided to conduct their visit in the manner and time they did because they were afraid..

I guess the real policemen were elsewhere..

pmf

August 15, 2008, 12:40

That's the most outrageous thing I have ever heard. I would send this to the MD Governor amd Attorney General demanding a formal apology. Send it to your state rep as well. Cops should not get away with this kind of harrassment.

StarPD

August 15, 2008, 13:19

Sounds like lawyer time to me.
You should be able to get enough compensation to buy a whole LOT more guns and ammo.

FWIW, if you DON'T make them pay, and a lot, like the trooper said, they'll be back. Next time though, they might just kill you and your family "by mistake". They'll think twice about doing that if you've already cost them a bundle though.

Do NOT under ANY circumstances try to be a "nice guy", and "not want to make waves" or "call attention to yourself". Unless you stop them with an expensive lawsuit, they'll do it again, to you, and to others. You have an opportunity to stop them, and a duty to do so.

I hope you were awake enough when it was over to get the names and badge numbers of the troopers, and made notes as to who said what to you. If not, make your notes now while it's still fresh in your memory, and let your lawyer get the ID of the troopers. He can.

Please do it for the sake of every lawful gun owner in Maryland, and for those of us in other States that may unbeknownst to us be considering the same policy.

ThunderGod

August 15, 2008, 13:20

Just how much is a "large amount"?

jaykden

August 15, 2008, 13:32

so, was there a warrant or not? if not, WHY did they let them in? even the most stupid cops in the world would know you can't go full breach on a house without a warrant. (obviously they were prepared to storm the house since they had all that gear, and at that time of night)

renaissance_warrior

August 15, 2008, 13:43

If that's not the Gestapo at their finest and worst, I sure don't know what is! :mad: Who did this happen to?

Ricketts

August 15, 2008, 15:33

Azrial will be along any minute to defend their actions--

fastfreddy

August 15, 2008, 16:24

Originally posted by Bruce Allen

I guess the real policemen were elsewhere..

I hope there are still some on duty somewhere.

Given that criminal home invaders sometimes dress up like SWAT wannabes to get the element of surprise and put victims off guard, and

given that you are known to have weapons that could be used to defend against home invaders, and

given that the police showed up apparently scared and ready for a fight, at a time when honorable business is not conducted......

I am surprised that you, your wife, any dogs in the vicinity, and a cop or two are not now deceased.

This is yet another example of piss poor strategy from idiots in police leadership. This stupid strategy of coming to a family home in a "tacticool" approach seems designed to get innocent people killed..... and it often does. You're lucky you're not dead and your wife in jail for the weed planted in your bedroom, like the Atlanta "incident".

Are police chiefs recruited from the "short bus" these days?

Why didn't they just call on the phone with their questions or ask you to come down to the station? That is, if they MUST talk with you about a perfectly legal transaction. The real question is, why are they even doing this and what else is getting "flagged" in the database when you go to Walmart?

brownknees

August 15, 2008, 17:17

As I live in MD this has my interest.
Can you give me either a link, or more details?

Mainly.
"last night", I assume you mean one day before this was posted?
Where in MD?
Was there a warrant, and on what grounds?
How much was the "Large quantity"?
Do we know the source of the ammo in question?

"Trooper said that I had purchased a "large amount" of ammunition recently and wanted to know why."
I'd like to know HOW they knew this, & from where. as far as I know there is no "registration" of ammunition in MD, feel free to correct me on this point, though.

"Four heavily armed police came into the house while at least two others walked around outside of our home."
How did the entry occur? Invited in, consented to search, or what.

What was the source, & is it independantly confirmed?

I'm not doubting you, but I'd like more info & corroboration.

Munster30

August 15, 2008, 17:41

Originally posted by brownknees
As I live in MD this has my interest.
Can you give me either a link, or more details?

Mainly.
"last night", I assume you mean one day before this was posted?
Where in MD?
Was there a warrant, and on what grounds?
How much was the "Large quantity"?
Do we know the source of the ammo in question?

"Trooper said that I had purchased a "large amount" of ammunition recently and wanted to know why."
I'd like to know HOW they knew this, & from where. as far as I know there is no "registration" of ammunition in MD, feel free to correct me on this point, though.

"Four heavily armed police came into the house while at least two others walked around outside of our home."
How did the entry occur? Invited in, consented to search, or what.

What was the source, & is it independantly confirmed?

I'm not doubting you, but I'd like more info & corroboration. http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=8891

http://waronguns.blogspot.com/2008/08/maryland-shooter.html

http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2008/08/from-dept-of-make-em-mad.html

cycle_rcr

August 15, 2008, 17:42

Good thing he had no dogs :D

woof woof bang bang yelp yelp bang bang......

Munster30

August 15, 2008, 17:45

It isn't "the Cops", but the effed up bureaucracy that rules the State and makes the rules and policies.
Solution to the problem is in the hands of the voters.

brownknees

August 15, 2008, 17:51

Munster30
Thanks, I have some reading to do.

J. Armstrong

August 15, 2008, 18:01

One major reason I departed MD some years agop, with no intention of returning.

I miss the sailing, though.

Lewis Wetzel

August 15, 2008, 18:24

From FF:
This is yet another example of piss poor strategy from idiots in police leadership.

With all due respect FF, the 'leadership' cop-out is vacuous.

These kinds of things happen because the rank and file 'LEO' have neither principles worth a damn, nor any respect or knowledge of the Constitution.

SCREW THEM...Nuremburg defense no longer applies. Peace officers worthy of respect would not only openly disobey such a operational order, but would go out of their way to stop it, stop future potential occurances, and take the story to the media.

And it's not the "party"...it's the iron-first in the velvet glove of the STATE.

brownknees

August 15, 2008, 18:24

"Practice these phrases:

(1) "Sir, am I being detained, or am I free to go?"
(2) "Sir, I do not consent to any searches of any kind."
(3) "Sir, I have nothing to say until my lawyer is present."
(4) "Sir, unless you have a warrant, I cannot let you in."

From a comment on the article on the "waronguns blogspot.com"

I can't help but wonder if the bench warrants for the relative, gun registration, & ammo purchase factored into the raid.

However This could have been dealt with without the strong-arm tactics & KGB midnite truck syndrome being invoked.

& I still don't know how much the "large quantity" was!
Yep, it is subject to interpretation by the authorities, but how much was it? Neither side is giving any kind of count.

Lewis Wetzel

August 15, 2008, 18:29

Originally posted by Munster30
It isn't "the Cops", but the effed up bureaucracy that rules the State and makes the rules and policies.
Solution to the problem is in the hands of the voters.

You couldn't be more wrong. Your assertion rests on the premise that a majority of the citizens are both knowledgeable about the Constitution and actually care about its enforcement. That flies in the face of history since the War of Secession.

See my above post.

A treatise on "The limitations of voting to ensure government compliance" seems in order....

I'll get right on it...

justashooter

August 15, 2008, 18:46

all you MD guys should go out and buy ammo in calibers you don't have handguns in just to mess with them. if'n i was as rich as my ex-wife thinks i am i would pay the bills for youns.

fastfreddy

August 15, 2008, 19:05

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who buys ammo for a gun I don't yet own. If I see a good deal, I snap some up. I could always sell it later and besides, after Nobama is elected, there might not be any more.

Folks keep asking how much ammo there was. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE Seriously, if the guy says it was 100 rounds or says it was 100,000 rounds, what difference does that make? I don't know of some secret law dictating how much ammo a person can buy. There are fire codes (not laws and not enforcable by police) that deal with storage, but so what. If the guy has a milllllllllion rounds, the most they can do is have the fire marshall instruct him to store it properly or be fined.

Since when is a SWAT squad deployed for a civil fine fire code violation?

This is bullshit. I wonder what other databases of Walmart transactions they keep. How do they get the data for this database? I guarantee it isn't just in Maryland. Big Brother is getting his ducks in a row.

Munster30

August 15, 2008, 19:34

What Gun Owners Have Become (http://blog.robballen.com/archive/2008/08/11/gun-owners-only.aspx)

And a link to the Blog post that inspired the picture:

http://blog.joehuffman.org/2006/10/09/StateOfMind.aspx

Basil

August 15, 2008, 19:57

There is definitely something funny here - I lived in MD for years and bought a lot of ammo there, and never once was any personal information taken down.

Where'd they get the guy's name from? Not to be a doubting Thomas, but if bench warrants were mailed to the guys house for his brother in-law, wouldn't it make sense that they ran HIS name, found out he had guns, and came looking for either his brother in-law or to see if he was arming his brother in-law?

StarPD

August 15, 2008, 20:34

I was under the impression that Munster was the victim.
That he's not and merely posted a report by someone else(without stating that it was such), puts it in a different light. I now question it also, primarily how did the "State" get his name and address if not required to buy ammo, like it is in Illinois?

As outrageous as it seems on it's face, it doesn't pass the smell test.

I'm glad of that, even though it may be misleading and inflammatory. There are enough REAL instances of abuse without someone making one up. Apparently, this is just yet another Internet hoax.

Russ

August 15, 2008, 21:05

Yep, I vote for credible verification first.

Although not unheard of, the scenario described seemed too outrageous not to have made some news somewhere. The very careful narration, and great response-punchlines certainly have the urban-internet-righteous-rage-myth feel about them.

If the story is true, there is not enough bad words to say about it even with all of my flavorful vocabulary. On the other hand, if we have some internet-commando getting their self-righteous rocks off with a false or heavily embellished "Tales of the Gun", then I'd sentence the author to a medical Rx for 50,000 volts courtesy of the nearest tazer available.

Verification first, reaction to follow
Russ

ftierson

August 15, 2008, 21:56

Originally posted by StarPD
I was under the impression that Munster was the victim.
That he's not and merely posted a report by someone else(without stating that it was such), puts it in a different light. I now question it also, primarily how did the "State" get his name and address if not required to buy ammo, like it is in Illinois?

As outrageous as it seems on it's face, it doesn't pass the smell test.

I'm glad of that, even though it may be misleading and inflammatory. There are enough REAL instances of abuse without someone making one up. Apparently, this is just yet another Internet hoax.

Swipe your credit card through the machine and 'they' know everything...

Forrest

Bruce Allen

August 15, 2008, 22:32

Originally posted by Lewis Wetzel
........These kinds of things happen because the rank and file 'LEO' have neither principles worth a damn, nor any respect or knowledge of the Constitution.....

That statement is really ignorant.

You haven't come close to meeting all the "rank and file 'LEO'"... so quit making such remarks that you cannot possibly know anything about.

mace2364

August 16, 2008, 08:55

I have to admit, that I do have a few questions on this one. I was a Maryland resident, in name really since I'm Active Duty in the Army. Last year, I changed that because the taxes in Wicomico County, and Salisbury, got to a ridiculous point, especially since I wasn't living there. At any rate, here's what I know: I have been asked to provide an ID, and the info off of which was recorded, when I bought some .45ACP a couple years ago. I have purchased ammo from a dealers in MD and they didn't do that. I had a whole 1000 rd case of 7.62x39 blanks shipped to my mom's house in MD. (mind you I have never registered a firearm in MD, because I have only lived there 1 month since I was of age to purchase a firearm)That was over a year ago, and we have had no visits from the police. Do I agree with the laws in MD, HELL no I don't! Do I think that if this is true that legal action needs to be taken? Yes I do. However, I looked at all the links provided on this one, and all of them have been online forums, and none of them has had any comments or anything from the individual this supposedly happened to, unless I missed something. And also the fact that I have done everything in question(i.e. buy ammo "to guns I didn't have" , to include handguns, in bulk) within the last 3 years, and nothing of this sort has occured to me, yet. I haven't broken any laws, nor do I intend to, so I don't expect any trouble either.

Now that I think about it, I actually got pulled over in 2007, while I was moving from Milwaukee to Fort Campbell, KY and taking my leave in MD. I had most of my whole collection in my vehicle, to include a crapload of ammo, since I was in the process of moving. I was pulled over by a policemen, which dept he was with I don't recall, on hwy 100, not too far from bwi. He pulled me over because the back end of my car was almost dragging the ground(due to the rifles and ammo in the trunk), and the fact that my whole car was full of random junk. When he asked me what was in the trunk, I told him it was firearms, ammunition, and military gear. Now mind you, my car at the time was an 86' Plymouth Reliant with a rather rough paint job and out of state plates. I informed him that I was in the Military, in the process if moving. He asked me where I was going, and I told him Salisbury(roughly 2 hours away from where we were). He told me that he hoped my car would make it and to have a good night. He may have even asked me if there was someone I could call if I ran into problems.

I said all that to say this, the officer in question was polite and professional. He could have gone balistic when I told him a portion of my cargo, especially given the "DC shooter" case in recent memory. He did not, and I hope the other officers in his dept are as professional as he was to me. With one possible exception, every MD police officer I have encountered has been that way.

Lewis Wetzel

August 16, 2008, 08:59

Originally posted by Bruce Allen

That statement is really ignorant.

You haven't come close to meeting all the "rank and file 'LEO'"... so quit making such remarks that you cannot possibly know anything about.

I'm referring to the rank and file (foot soldiers) of the State that carry out the authoritarian and unconstitutional orders without questioning....that means most of them.

And you should have heard the Denver cop I personally heard who told me how they (Denver PD) can't wait until the protesters at the Democratic convention here start acting up so that they can use their new equipment on them. Heard that last Sunday at a family gathering........Nothing new...Denver is typical big-city department with little oversight. Oh...and yo might want to read about the six cops who were caught this week lying in a court case about breaking a man's (white guy riding a bicycle) teeth on the concrete because of 'non-compliance'....try the Rocky Mountain News or Denver Post.....
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/13/charges-dropped-after-video-surfaces/

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=97466&provider=top

http://neighbors.denverpost.com/viewtopic.php?p=287937
Yeah.....winning hearts and minds.....

brownknees

August 16, 2008, 15:52

Folks keep asking how much ammo there was. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE
In a way I disagree, brear with me here while I explain.

I've heard phrases like "Huge Quantity" used to describe "dozens of rounds".

It doesn't effect the outcome of the event (if it ocurred), but it does effect what is being used to define "Huge Amounts".

If there was 2 boxes of 20 rounds then "Huge Quantity" is pure bullsh1t.
That would lead me to think there was more hype than substance to this.

Now a truck delivering a pallet of ammo...........that may have gotten someone's attention, right or wrong.

I agree that in principal the volume doesn't matter, but the 2-boxes of 20 rounds would mean that someone, somewhere, did a search to find the ammo, but the pallet might have drawn attention to the delivery point.

================================================== ======

As for corroberating evidence I agree just posting the same story in 10 locations & referring to it does not corroberate anything, it just uses volume & repitition to re-inforce the story.

I have found nothing round here, in newspapers, or local TV, or any other source independantly of the posted repitition.

I'd honestly say the jury is still out on the accuracy of this report.

Bruce Allen

August 17, 2008, 08:39

Originally posted by Lewis Wetzel
........I'm referring to the rank and file (foot soldiers) of the State .....
I realize that and will ask how many of the "rank and file" have you met in your life?

It could not possibly be more than a small percentage of all... even in your state.

That is why statements like this are ignorant..

It also reveals your mindset and obvious bias....

Are there some "out there" that are willing to follow orders without question?
Sure.

Are there some out there that will not?
Obviously yes.

I know that because I am friends with people/officers that would not.

Therefore your statement is simply not accurate or true.

Lewis Wetzel

August 17, 2008, 12:54

Originally posted by Bruce Allen

I realize that and will ask how many of the "rank and file" have you met in your life?

It could not possibly be more than a small percentage of all... even in your state.

That is why statements like this are ignorant..

It also reveals your mindset and obvious bias....

Are there some "out there" that are willing to follow orders without question?
Sure.

Are there some out there that will not?
Obviously yes.

I know that because I am friends with people/officers that would not.

Therefore your statement is simply not accurate or true.

Yes, I am biased. It is based upon experience, therefore is not prejudice, but rather "post"-judice.

Your labeling of a statement as 'ignorant' is a misuse of the word.

Also, the exception does not disprove the rule. To make generalizations that are 'generally' true, is, in fact, the essence of wisdom and maturity.

At the present time, and within the last ten years at least, history has demonstrated the overwhelming propensities and behaviors on the part of those who are 'professional' 'law enforcement':

1) They do NOT enforce their own.

2) Demonstrate repeatedly a double standard with respect to enforcing the law, differentiating between fellow, yellow 'law enforcement' members and the general public.

3) Will lie, prevaricate, and distort the truth both with the general public and on the witness stand. I have experienced personally several examples of this.

4) Hold their pensions, career, and furthered employment sacrosanct when it "push comes to shove", i.e., in cases such as the New Orleans fiasco.

I've known a few good peace officers. That "good", however is a continuum...they do and say the 'right' things when I had the opportunity to observe them....But then it's EASY to be good when your ass, career, or employment is NOT on the line. Have they (the superficially 'good' ones) every acted unconstitutionally? Abused their power? Not turned in another officer they knew was abusing their power? Have they refused to obey an immoral or unconstitutional or illegal command and then made every effort to bring their supervisor or commander to justice?

That's how you can tell if someone is moral, ethical, or, as in the case of a public servant, whether they hold the law and the Constitution sacred: when THEY HAVE SOMETHING TO LOSE when they stand on moral principle. How many "Serpicos" are there out there? NOT MANY.

When it comes to that, acting morally and ethically when doing so puts them at risk, I would expect most cops to FAIL. They are, as all of us, flawed human beings....not the 'heroes' they make themselves out to be.

101ABN327

August 17, 2008, 13:36

He should find a lawyer and sue the Attorney General on down to the junior most jackbooted thug! This was purely harassment and had absolutely nothing to do with public safety.

Stranger

August 17, 2008, 14:54

He violated the cardinal rule of interacting with the police. You should not talk to them.

brownknees

August 17, 2008, 16:11

I said all that to say this, the officer in question was polite and professional. He could have gone balistic when I told him a portion of my cargo, especially given the "DC shooter" case in recent memory. He did not, and I hope the other officers in his dept are as professional as he was to me. With one possible exception, every MD police officer I have encountered has been that way.
I have to agree with that.
I had a similar experience, with similar results.
His only question was "Are any of the guns loaded?" (Illegal in MD, unless you have permits I've never applied for).
I said no.
That was it. No problems at all.

I've had problems with PD's Sure, Manhattan being the most extreem. But Md, no they have always been polite, firm, professional.

Of course I don't live in Prince Georges County.
:wink:

1911guy

August 17, 2008, 17:35

I lived in MD for years. Never had to produce ID to purchase ammo. I must admit that most of what I bought was at gun shows in large quantities but never had an ID problem. Used to buy powder in 8 lb canisters also. Never a problem. If MD has devolved to this level (something lower than whale poop) than the remaining residents have my sympathy. Glad I left that communist state. O'Malley must really be running that place into the ground.

jaykden

August 18, 2008, 12:11

has this been confirmed yet?

brownknees

August 18, 2008, 14:44

Independantly confirmed, or verified as to the details, NO!

There is a lot of posting locally, but I still can't find direct confirmation from any source, other than the original poster.

This did come up, confirming the existance of departments, and policies regarding ammo purchases, ID confirmation & so on.
(Excerpts from 2 posts with hard info).

Bear in mind there are 8 pages of stuff here, so I took only things that seemed both accurate & relevant.

Quote:
"I received a note from a LEO who wishes to remain anonymous that this may be bigger than it seems. This is not an isolated incident (the last victim that this person is aware of was a 94 year old woman), this is just the only one that was publicly reported. The LEO is fairly certain that this isn't the MSP Licensing Division, but rather it is some sort of new Firearms Enforcement Division created by the same MSP bureaucrat that has made it clear that he cares nothing about civil rights or guarantees of law.

The first thing that I urge every member to do is to not buy ammunition from any vendor that records ID information. And make sure that you tell the store management exactly why you will not comply with their unreasonable and unnecessary requirements to purchase ammo. Urge every shooter that you know that may not be a member here to do the same, as the MSP database is only useful to them if it contains data. We can stop the flow of data.

Second, don't let this issue die. Contact your legislator and express your concern about this issue. See if they can get this issue added to the list of complaints on the upcoming MSP spy hearings.

Third, be prepared. The way I understand it, if my anonymous LEO's tip is accurate, the probability of getting a visit for doing nothing wrong just went up exponentially. Make sure everyone in your household knows their rights in regard to a visit by police. I gave my wife the "don't volunteer any info / no warrant = no entry / slam the door on their face and don't open it if no warrant / if warrant, leave the house" speech last night just in case. I hope that it never comes to that, but after some of the stuff that I have learned recently, I'll just say that my paranoia meter is pegging at 10, and I'm not usually like that.

This is a very big deal, and we cannot let it fall by the wayside. We need to come up with a strategy for bringing this to the public's attention, so if anyone has any suggestions then please speak up."

Further down there is this post:

Quote:
"Found this and it appears that AG Gansler or his office has some knowledge of what is going on:

"Attorney General Gansler’s Firearms Trafficking Unit, in cooperation with the Firearms Licensing and Registration Division and the Firearms Enforcement Section of the Maryland State Police, participates in the seizure of hundreds of firearms every year, and performs hundreds of traces of recovered firearms. In its effort to eliminate illegal purchases, sales, transfers and possessions of firearms, the Firearms Trafficking Unit investigates a substantial number of applications to purchase regulated firearms–resulting in the Unit bringing charges against a number of individuals who do not have the right to possess regulated firearms."

"With the cooperation of several gun dealers across the state, the Firearms Trafficking Unit has also initiated a program that maintains ammunition logs that include identification information of purchasers of ammunition. Review of these logs results in the investigation of individuals who are prohibited from possessing regulated firearms and who are believed to have purchased ammunition which could be used in such firearms. The Firearm Trafficking Unit’s continuing investigations have led to charges and arrests of individuals and the seizure of handguns from those that violate the law."

Full link here: MD Attorney General Law Enforcement

Also with Norton's lead, this is potentially Gene Paluzzi's latest information, including email...and seems like he got a promotion to Lieutenant...Lt. Gene Paluzzi."

Of course none of this confirms, or backs up the assertation of any "midnight raid"

The whole thread can be seen here:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=8891

Bruce Allen

August 18, 2008, 17:21

Originally posted by Lewis Wetzel
........Yes, I am biased (1).

Your labeling of a statement as 'ignorant' is a misuse of the word (2).

1. Obviously.

2. Nope:
Definition:

1. lacking knowledge: lacking knowledge or education in general or in a specific subject..

The constant use of the word "They" shows a mind set equal to the police you so roundly condem.

You have a vague idea only from what the news media puts forth... and we know how reliable and accurate that is..

Give it up.. you aren't going to win this.

Deltaten

August 18, 2008, 19:20

thanx B-K...
we needed that injection of sanity...
but from *you* ? ;)

all kidding aside... this is dangerous ground; whichever side of the verification argument you fall on. We know that zealots exist within the PTB bureauracracies.
Mebbe I'll take a little trip to MD and buy some ammo. I know of a few shops just over the line, so to speak. Wonder if it'll end up like the fireworks places that womnn't sell to PA residents??? PA res. can buy; biut MD is a no-no???

Charlie-Foxtrot.. all around
Paul

brownknees

August 18, 2008, 19:54

From me, why not!
I'm "neutral" in the police/(alleged)perp battleground.
Kind of like Ireland was "neutral" in WW2:tongue:

Seriously there's nothing to substantiate the allegations of a midnight raid, so why fight a battle that hasn't happened?
Now if it were substantiated then I'd have no problem being on the side of the good guys, but I don't think you can put out a fire with gasoline.

The "suggested voluntary registration" of guns & ammo is real though.
Funny I didn't think you needed registration in "the land of the semi-free & the home of the almost brave" that we're being talked into as a good idea, for the children.

It's a crying shame where this country is going.

Deltaten

August 18, 2008, 20:30

well...
Ripley's reported that gasoline was used to put out cotton bale fires......
Spiking yer opponent's cannon prior to a battle *is* good tactics.

:]

Russ

August 18, 2008, 20:48

I'm giving this one the Two-Minute Warning

Sounds like some cyber shite-stirrer needed his emotional orgasm of righteous rage, complete with indignant homily and strawman punchlines.

All you boys that jumped aboard, I'm afraid you've just wasted a perfectly good resentment. It's true that MD is scarecely even a part of the United States anymore, but yelping to the govenor about something that never happened (except on some Junior High School student's pc) is definately NOT going to buy much in the RKBA credibility dept -- just ask the boy who cried 'wolf'

Excuse me, I'm going out to the backyard to look for the corpse of Sassquatch
Russ

StoneyCreekMrMauser

August 18, 2008, 21:42

Originally posted by brownknees

IOf course I don't live in Prince Georges County.
:wink:

Lived there. Be glad.:tongue:

SWOHFAL

August 18, 2008, 23:23

Originally posted by cycle_rcr
Good thing he had no dogs :D

woof woof bang bang yelp yelp bang bang......

If he had some poodles, they'd have had to "spray 'n' pray" with their MP-5s.

brownknees

August 19, 2008, 09:23

Originally posted by Deltaten
well...
Ripley's reported that gasoline was used to put out cotton bale fires......
Spiking yer opponent's cannon prior to a battle *is* good tactics.

:]

Aw hell yes!

MD is definately not gun friendly, no argument there.
However I don't think that unsubstantiated "fiction" like this is really doing anything other than damaging the credibility of gun owners.

There are enough real incidents where evidence (like dead dogs with one bullet in the base of the spine & two more scattered all over, all trajectories from above/behind) that can be fought & won, that making up ones that can't be fought isn't helping at all.

In a way it's like UFO "encounters".
There's so much made up BS that if there ever was a real contact with something the reporter would immediately be called a nut case.

Lewis Wetzel

August 19, 2008, 09:59

Originally posted by Bruce Allen

1. Obviously.

2. Nope:
Definition:

1. lacking knowledge: lacking knowledge or education in general or in a specific subject..

The constant use of the word "They" shows a mind set equal to the police you so roundly condem.

You have a vague idea only from what the news media puts forth... and we know how reliable and accurate that is..

Give it up.. you aren't going to win this.

Your self-aggrandizement is waving in the breeze...again.

"Win"? I didn't know we were having a contest, though I believe the validity of my previous post(s) should be obvious to any well-read, informed individual. Excluding government employees, that is, or those who are, or have ever been, on the government dole or having worked as a government goon.

Perhaps you should be tested for Alzheimer's disease.

brownknees

August 19, 2008, 10:15

Here's the update as of this morning.
It seems that there was some kind of visitation, but the details are still unclear.

There is now a second contact with the original poster, including a location, and a confirmation of the gunshop that was the source of the information to the PD.

Here’s a follow up reply to the Mdshooters website owner from the victim of this.

Henry,

I don't know what they would have done had I not been at home. Or if my Wife had not opened the door. Let's face it, it's highly questionable if not criminal for them to have even besieged my home in the middle of the night because I legally purchased handgun ammunition. Who knows what they are capable of, given that rationale... In Practice, Police "ACT" then worry about legalities latter because of "Tunnel Vision". Usually they try to "settle" cases rather than set a legal precedent or admit guilt. I don't want money (my contact to NRA Attorney), I want them to STOP this practice and be held accountable for their actions.

If you want to "bust" people for legally buying handgun ammo when the State Police don't have a record of you owning any such caliber weapon, then make it illegal to do so (good luck). Don't send a Swat Team to a Law Abiding Citizen's Home at Midnight when they have not broken any laws!

By all means share this info with "Shall Issue Inc." and you can use my name. I've already been told by Chris Contee (NRA Legal Counsel), that if they come back with or without a warrant, have them call him direct.

Thanks and lock your door.

Don Curtis
============================

And some more information:
This happened in La Plata, Maryland.
============================

The officer who collects on the Eastern Shore is Sgt Stone. I think I got his cell number somewhere. I know because both Walmart down in Salisbury tried that registration crap with me. Walmart employees lied and told me it was a state law and the Sgt involved told them so. I saw a copy of contact information in their log book of who was in charge. So I got his number and called several times but he never answered or returned a message. Next I called Jessup (when it was at Jessup) to complain that a State Police officer lied about what is Md law. I was told no harm was done and if I don't like it don't shop at Walmart.

According to the victim of the raid, it was Fred's.

I'm passing along the information that I was given.
===============================

Maybe the raid is not proven, but the logbook, data collection, and record keeping seems to be based on fact.

It also seems that this is the store that started the whole thing off.

Excuse me if this is old news, but I just purchased 9mm ammo at Fred's in Waldorf and had they had to log it down with my driver's license They said it's not mandatory YET, but they're doing it as a precaution in case MSP comes down on them for any reason. Apparently it's only for handgun and military style arms ammo. I gave it a "whatever", then on the way home started thinking about it and got a bit bent out of shape.

Has anyone heard of this? Could this be the start of keeping tabs on who has what when it comes down to the serialized ammo issue? I don't know, this is new to me...and I don't like it.
===================================

More updates.
Just spoke to Lt. Gene Paluzzi. He seemed a little surprised to receive a call from me, and very surprised that his contact information was available online.

He stated that he had been assigned to the Firearms Enforcement Unit a few years ago but was no longer in it. He also mentioned that he is now a quartermaster, and has no knowledge regarding the incident we were referring to, and that he was unable to make any comments. He did ask me to contact Mr. Sheridan for further information.

It looks like we may have to reach higher up the food chain.

Has the report by Don Curtis been verified?

Here's what we know so far.

The victim in this bought his ammo from a well-known Waldorf-based shop. The shop turned over the records when the MSP came around to collect them.
According to the victim of the raid, it was Fred's.
The Baltimore Sun reporter investigating the MSP spy case has been notified.

xcpd69

August 20, 2008, 11:23

So far, my (admittedly not YET extensive) searching has NOT been able to confirm this story. All I have found so far is reposted copies of an alleged e-mail.

Even considering this is the People's Democratic Republik Of Maryland, something smells a bit off.

At this point, I would not be surprised EITHER way to find the incident to be essentially true as described,the child of anti-gun zealots in government or a work of fiction by some pro-gun zealot, describing what COULD be the end result of such a record keeping system.

Either does not bode well for the source, whether it be fact or fiction.

brownknees

August 20, 2008, 15:37

You could well be right.
Based on what I've been able to track down locally all the information comes from a single, second-hand source.

There are now 3 e-mails, not one. BUT the second-hand source is the same for all of them.

It does sound like something happened, as far as police involvment is concerned. If it it's as described seems very much open to doubt.

mace2364

August 20, 2008, 16:27

This much I can tell you...if this really did happen, there would be something in the local paper about it. Probably horribly anti-gun slanted, but it would still be there. There was an artictle in 2004 of a guy that got arrested on the shore with a number of "evil black guns" namely a benelli and an AK, along with a few I dont recall. I think they got him on drug charges. He had "drug paraphenalia" in the form of a reloading scale. I remember this because I was at stationed at fort bragg at the time, and dad was warning me about the "toys" I was traveling with when I came home on pass. At any rate...if this happened there would be something in the local news about it....even if it made this guy out to be a criminal.

John Culver

August 20, 2008, 17:17

someone in the area should do a FOIA request on it

ftierson

August 20, 2008, 17:59

The simple fact that everyone (well, most everyone) is willing to believe these stories should tell you something...

And that something doesn't bode well for the survival of the Republic, such that it is...

Just sayin'...

Forrest

NoNotAgain

August 20, 2008, 18:47

I wouldn’t know "Fred's" from Tom, Dick or Harry’s; however the ammunition log scheme has been going on in Maryland for a few years.

A past state representative to the NRA, Sanford Abrahams who owned Valley Gun shop was on the BATFE hot list for book keeping and missing firearms.

Said "Mister NRA" decided that to stay in business he would require an ammo log so that the local police could come in to the get names of purchaser’s of all handgun ammo.

BATFE finally got all the information that they could get from "Mister NRA" and revoked his license.
www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-md.abrams15jan15,0,1751085.story

Valley Gun, was one of 41 licensed firearm dealers - out of 80,000 nationwide - ordered by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to provide detailed reports on all gun purchases and sales for the previous three years, and to continue providing such reports monthly. Abrams saw it as an improper power play and sued the bureau.

Mister NRA then went out and sold two firearms to a convicted felon that were used in a police shoot-out. Mister NRA took an Alford plea, and received a five year suspended sentence.

If Fred's is cooperating with the local police it's because they themselves are in trouble and are selling their souls to stay in business.

brownknees

August 20, 2008, 21:23

If Fred's is cooperating with the local police it's because they themselves are in trouble and are selling their souls to stay in business.

This is beginning to sound like the '70's redux in PA.

Anyone remember those "good old days" when the title III guys were invited into a cinema to have a "presentation" by the BATF?

Russ

August 21, 2008, 16:56

Me, smacking the flat of my open hand on the canvas in the middle of the ring....seven.....eight.....nine.....TEN !! (CLANG!!!)

Still zippo verification, this "story" is just that -- a story. And it's deader than all the brown grass in my backyard.

Russ

Bruce Allen

August 21, 2008, 21:15

Originally posted by Lewis Wetzel
......I believe the validity of my previous post(s) should be obvious to any well-read, informed individual...........

Perhaps you should be tested for Alzheimer's disease.
Obvious?

Only to you..

That's the problem with being biased... you have an opinion then look for information to back it up, instead of the unbiased approach of finding out information and facts and then determining what you opinion is.

You level of ignorance is astounding.

You cite several situations that have occurred in the last several years that have obviously been unconstitutional, which I freely have admitted and denounced and you have conveniently overlooked, out of thousands of incidents where police and citizens have had contact and your opinion is "they" are all bad.

Your hysterical shrillness is noted by all and generally discounted by most.

Notice after one of my posts several others posted they had generally good law enforcement in their areas... but of course you convienently overlooked their posts also.

Are you a lawyer,,, cause you sure are DABTLing this issue up..

You got on your high horse on what is now determined to be no more than false story..

How stupid are you... getting hysterical over a non story..

DUH!

You lose Captain Obvious... like always.