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indy_Muaddib
July 31, 2008, 01:20
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=316726

Couple bring Smith & Wesson under fire with suit
By: Lynn LaRowe - Texarkana Gazette - Published: 07/30/2008

A Rosston, Ark., couple are suing Smith & Wesson in federal court because of a serious injury allegedly caused by a .460 Magnum revolver.

Todd Brown bought an S&W .460 Magnum revolver last fall. When he tried using it to shoot a deer the day after Christmas, gases escaping from the gun’s barrel severed his thumb, the suit alleges.

“Todd then lowered the gun to see if he had hit the deer, and as he was looking for the deer in the moments following the shot he saw blood shooting up in the air and on his gun and clothes, and he looked and saw that his thumb had been severed from his left hand and there was a deep gash in the flesh of the palm of his left hand extending up to his index finger ...” the suit alleges.

Brown decided to purchase the weapon after watching a hunting show promoting the gun’s use to hunt bigger game, such as deer, the suit states. Brown bought the revolver, a scope and a holster from an authorized S&W dealer in Hope, Ark., on Dec. 21, 2007, for $1,896.58.

On Dec. 26, the opening day of the Christmas deer hunt, Brown tried to use the revolver to shoot a deer.

Monticello, Ark., attorney Cliff Gibson III filed the suit on Brown’s behalf July 18.

Smith & Wesson President and Chief Operating Officer Leland Nichols said the company could not comment on the suit and had not yet been served with a copy of the complaint.

The suit blames Brown’s injuries on alleged negligence by Smith & Wesson.

The first area of negligence the suit alleges is in the gun’s design. The suit asserts that S&W should have had the foresight to “design away” the risk of harm posed by “... the extraordinarily powerful gases expelled through the barrel-cylinder gap ...”

The likelihood that a hunter might move a hand forward on the gun’s barrel when trying to site an animal should have been anticipated by S&W and factored into the gun’s design, the suit states.

“This negligence includes ... the failure to reduce the length and weight of the gun barrel, the failure to increase the length of the cylinder, the failure to otherwise provide for better balance of the gun’s hefty weight, and the failure to provide a larger and more robust pistol grip for necessary two-handed firing of this heavy high-powered gun,” the complaint states.

S&W should have realized hunters in the woods won’t always have a convenient place to rest the weighty gun when firing, the suit alleges.

“Smith and Wesson consequently knew or had reason to know that while hunting in the woods and fields Todd Brown would have to support the heavy weight of this gun while shooting same solely by the strength of his hands and arms, thereby making it likely and probable that hunters, including Todd, would move his free hand forward and closer to the extremely dangerous barrel-cylinder gap in order to support and balance the gun while sighting-in the game,” the suit alleges.

The suit also alleges S&W failed to conduct enough testing on the gun before placing it on the market.

Warnings that might have alerted Todd Brown to the alleged dangers of the gun didn’t exist, the suit states.

“Further, Smith & Wesson was negligent in failing to give Todd Brown a reasonable and adequate warning and instruction respecting the nature, extent and severity of the danger of the devastating injury and harm (i.e. it will cut your hand off) presented to a shooter by its Model 460 Magnum Revolver,” the suit alleges.

The Browns are asking a jury in the Western District of Arkansas, El Dorado division, to award them damages for Todd Brown’s “... great, grievous and permanent injury to his person, past and future medical expense necessary to treat and care for his injuries, past and future pain, suffering and mental anguish, past and future loss of earnings, loss of earning capacity, and scars and disfigurement to his person,” the suit said.

They also want compensation for Kathy Brown’s “loss of consortium.”

Smith & Wesson voluntarily recalled an earlier version of the .460 because of problems with the barrel.

The S&W Performance Center Model 460XVR Revolvers manufactured by an outside supplier were found to have substandard steel present in the barrel, according to Smith & Wesson’s Website.

The recall included only Performance Center Model .460 Revolvers shipped before Sept. 18, 2006. Specifically not included in the recall were standard production .460 revolvers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/indy_MuadDib/1217482505777.jpg

Can he not read?

GUN SNOB
July 31, 2008, 08:12
These stories make me think of the hair dryer warning stickers that warn not to use them in the tub or shower.

"YOU CAN"T FIX STUPID!"

FTW2012
July 31, 2008, 10:16
Can you sue Chevy if you get into a wreck?

Ron White; "You can't fix stupid"

Forrest Gump; "Stupid is as stupid does"

S&W should call them both to the witness stand :rofl:

W.E.G.
July 31, 2008, 10:18
He will get paid.

RT
July 31, 2008, 13:18
Originally posted by W.E.G.
He will get paid. WHY?

Para Driver
July 31, 2008, 13:57
when you said Arkansas, the rest is redundant..

gunshack
July 31, 2008, 15:22
Originally posted by indy_Muaddib
They also want compensation for Kathy Brown’s “loss of consortium.”

That musta been one special thumb.

charles isaac
July 31, 2008, 15:36
Just found out, It's Happened Before (http://www.esharethis.com/content.asp?CatID=31&ContentID=3129)

CRShooter32
July 31, 2008, 16:34
Don't matter if it's happened before, it's not S&W's fault people are not paying attention to the warning printed in the manual, or not paying attention to what they are doing, I don't care what caliber it is, I damn well make sure I never have any part of my hand near the cylinder/barrel gap when firing any of my revolvers. Just the sight of the flash from the hot gas blowing out between the gap with each shot is enough reminder to anyone with any common sense to keep hands, fingers, and thumbs away from the front of the cylinder.

"The first area of negligence the suit alleges is in the gun’s design. The suit asserts that S&W should have had the foresight to “design away” the risk of harm posed by “... the extraordinarily powerful gases expelled through the barrel-cylinder gap ...”

How in the hell is S&W supposed to do that, make a supersized version of the 1895 Nagant revolver, complete with the 14lb trigger pull? I've seen attempts to engineer equipment to deal with the problem of stupid people working in unsafe manners, and it made the equiment even more dangerous to operate, further "fixes" made things even worse, yet there are just too many people who do believe you can fix stupid. The only way to deal with stupid people is to stay away from them. "Fix the problem", and next time someone may get worse than a lost thumb...

“This negligence includes ... the failure to reduce the length and weight of the gun barrel, the failure to increase the length of the cylinder, the failure to otherwise provide for better balance of the gun’s hefty weight, and the failure to provide a larger and more robust pistol grip for necessary two-handed firing of this heavy high-powered gun,” the complaint states.

The guy could have ordered a version with a shorter barrel, as far as balance, if someone wants a longer barrel, of course the revolver is gonna be muzzle heavy. And does he realize that increasing the length of the cylinder could make the gun even less balanced, and more muzzle heavy?

The guy should have made sure he could handle the big X-Frame before he bought it, and read the manual before shooting it. S&W should sue him for being an idiot.

AndyC
July 31, 2008, 16:43
Originally posted by charles isaac
Just found out, It's Happened Before (http://www.esharethis.com/content.asp?CatID=31&ContentID=3129)
Yeah, W.E.G. posted it here on the 'files (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=225533) back in February.

newfalguy101
July 31, 2008, 16:55
Originally posted by rtgunsmoke
WHY?

it'll cost less than fightiing it out for 30 years in court.




Personally, I would REALLY like to see a company take someone to task and carry forward with the suit, THEN file a counter to recover its cost involved with defending against a frivilous suit.

charles isaac
August 01, 2008, 07:55
Thanks for the link Andy, it was quite informative.

Originally posted by CRShooter32
I never have any part of my hand near the cylinder/barrel gap when firing any of my revolvers.

Ahmen to that.

You would think this would be common knowledge seeing how people knew this over 150 years ago. I learned as a child from an oldtimer, shooting Civil War revolving pistols and a rare rifle version-it even had a forearm inviting you to put your hand there. But there is the risk of a chainfire in which multiple chambers fire and will most surely shoot some or most of your hand off. Capping off the chambers with lard greatly reduced the threat, but did not eliminate it.

I think a lot of the ignorance has to do with the autopistol virtually taking over the handgun market. Revolver knowledge is becomming a thing of the past what with everyone packing autopistols nowadays.

Next, coffee cups will have "Warning, This Coffee Is Hot".....wait a minute:rolleyes:

vmtz
August 01, 2008, 08:02
Originally posted by W.E.G.
He will get paid.

Even if they get past summery judgment, comparative negligence should decrease the amount.

Fr. Vince

W.E.G.
August 01, 2008, 08:58
Originally posted by gunshack


That musta been one special thumb.


I whipped off her bloomers, and slipped in my thumb, and applied rotation on her sugar plum.... http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/FrankZappa.jpg

.
.
.
.
.
.
..

Originally posted by vmtz


Even if they get past summery judgment, comparative negligence should decrease the amount.

Fr. Vince

If they give a "summery" judgment, does that include free use of the beach house?

L Haney
August 01, 2008, 10:04
I showed this to my 17 year old daughter. After a careful read her response: He's just an idiot, isn't he? That's my girl! :rofl: :rofl:

Lowell

SWOHFAL
August 01, 2008, 15:41
What the hell business does anyone have hunting with a revolver if they find it too heavy to hold correctly (i.e., by the grips)? Buy a rifle, moron.

Powderfinger
August 01, 2008, 23:52
Originally posted by gunshack


That musta been one special thumb.

Dyna-Moe-Humm. :shades:

brumalis
August 02, 2008, 14:25
As I read it, Mr Brown sounds like a typical FUDD. The kind where they buy some upscale, expensive gun recommended by some magazine (or tv show in this case) and put on a high end scope. Then they wait until they go hunting with it before shooting it. Most of these types have the foresite, at least once, to sight it in with a few shots. He probably never took the pistol out to practice with it to get proficient with it, though he probably wandered around the house playing mall ninja hunting deer.

What an idiot. Should have stayed home and made Mrs. Brown happy with his thumb.

mpmax
August 28, 2008, 22:34
More the Mall Ninja than Fudd.

Muggzy
August 29, 2008, 08:13
ahahahaha.....Look at my Thumb......Geeeee your dumb

AndyC
August 29, 2008, 10:23
He's the same guy that stopped a chainsaw with his penis, right? Must have been...

seg
August 29, 2008, 13:25
I picked up this DA38 for next to nothing, I just happened to be in the gun shop when the guy brought it back. He had shot off his index finger with it. I guess he tried to use his middle finger to pull the trigger due to him having large hands. Doesn't have that issue now :)
I like stupid people, wish there were more of them.
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x317/seg68/P1010011.jpg

cycle_rcr
August 29, 2008, 17:18
Whoa nellie. I am the idiot. Seriously, I never knew this warning until reading this thread. And I own a couple revolvers. Redhawk and Trooper III. I owned the Trooper III for about 20 years now. It was my first centerfire handgun. Shot it many many times. Damn sure glad I never covered the cylinder barrel gap with my hand. I knew stuff came out, just never gave any thought to the velocity given the chamber pressures.

Suppose It doesn't help that both my revolvers were used without manuals. This needs to be right up there in gun common knowledge with not putting your thumb behind the slide.

There was a friend of mine in college. We went out shooting my MkII. He kept on putting his thumb behind the slide. I kept on telling him not to. After warning appx. #6, I kept my mouth shut. Whack, cut thumb, no need for warning #7.

1MOR
August 29, 2008, 17:39
So not only will we have idiot locks, now we will have little laser engraved idiot warning pictograms, "DO NOT GRAB HERE" foreword of the grips on all new Smiths. Fuggin wonderfull. How about a warning on the front of every handgun box:
"Danger-Contents of this box are NOT idiot proof"

How about another question on the BATF form:

Are you an Idiot yes no?

bigskyjake
August 29, 2008, 19:31
I remember when I first started shooting ( around 6-7 years old) I was shooting revolvers with my uncle and I attempted to grip it like the figure 13. I got the " don't ever do that if you like using your fingers" he then proceeded to hold a peice of paper up tho the front of the cylinder and pull the trigger. What I saw happen to the paper has stayed with me all these years ( I also still have complete use of all of my fingers)

1MOR
August 29, 2008, 19:46
I think all one would have to do is fire a large caliber or magnum revolver at dusk or after dark to figure out where NOT to put one's hands. Of course, there is a large fireball exiting the muzzle. Another fireball exits the freespace between the forcing cone and the cylinder face. Quite impressive!!:D :D

USMC 0341
August 31, 2008, 06:54
WTF?

Now, AFTER he has gone to the pain and trouble modifying his anatomy to work with his method of holding and shooting his new handgun - he wants to sue the company and probably get rid of the gun?

Heck, he should just go and continue using it the way he started out. He won't lose that thumb next time. Maybe he might want to get a special leather glove to cover the stub just in case he adjusts his grip a little.

1MOR
August 31, 2008, 10:25
I would certainly offer the gentleman $50 to take that painful piece of junk out of his life. Then he can get on with his life and receive daily therapy for PTS. Who makes the best dies for this caliber? What is the best powder? Can I shoot lead?

NONEYA
August 31, 2008, 13:14
I hope that the guy loses the suit.

tracyballard
September 01, 2008, 11:46
Originally posted by cycle_rcr
Whoa nellie. I am the idiot. Seriously, I never knew this warning until reading this thread.

yeah, I never knew the escaping gasses were that powerful, but I would't ever shoot a revolver with a finger near the cylinder anyway - the reason the revolver rifles of the 1800's were never popular was because of the gasses hitting people's forearms. I guess it would have been a lot worse it they had .460 mag revolver rifles back then...:biggrin:

trucksurfer
September 11, 2008, 21:02
Does this jackass think he's going to get a judge or a jury in Arkansas to believe him when he says he didn't know that the gun was inherently dangerous?

Oh wait, the jury will probably think that they would want the "big evil" corporation to pay up when they do something stupid, so they will award something insane.

ftierson
September 11, 2008, 21:45
Originally posted by 1MOR
How about another question on the BATF form:

Are you an Idiot yes no?

:)

Of course, the 5th says that you don't have to answer if yes...

Forrest

jaykden
November 20, 2008, 02:32
i scorched my left hand shooting a .357 once.


it hurt.


the deal was, i had been shooting a friends .44 mag thompson contender for about 20 minutes, and was holding the front stock while doing so.

so, i get done shooting the contender, pick up the security six, BANG! ouch!

shlomo
November 20, 2008, 04:34
Originally posted by W.E.G.
If they give a "summery" judgment, does that include free use of the beach house?

:rofl:

Maybe, but his prospects will certainly be sunnier.

Gary, I see you're a man after my own heart.:devil: :wink:

yarro
November 20, 2008, 12:17
I saw someone mangle a finger at the range shooting a .38 revolver. The surgeon that fixed it had to trim off a 1/4 inch off the middle finger. It was pretty gruesome. It looked like the thumb the guy at work got caught in the chip molding press when I worked in the semiconductor industry. Looked like soemone hit the tip with a big hammer. I had heard someone tell him he needed to keep his second hand back at the grip, but I guess he knew better. Idiot then sued the range. I was going to be a witness if it went to court since I was next to the idiot. Insurance company paid for his medical expenses to end it.

The range guy said that he had seen folks with longish fingers wreck a finger with derringers when they decide to use the middle finger to pull the trigger and extend the index one down the side of the barrels. He said he had also seen southpaws get digits on the right hand between the ejection port and barrel of semi-autos somehow. Folks putting the web of the off hand partially over the back of the slide does a good deal of damage too. The other big one is holding the handgun close two the face and pulling the trigger resulting in a nice head wound that bleeds a lot. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.

-Yarro

snogler
November 20, 2008, 14:49
the thumb won't be in the way anymore.

RollerCam
November 20, 2008, 16:42
I still find it hard to believe that [i]gas pressure can sever bone.[/]

Has this whole incident been disproven by Snopes, yet?

Other than minor, superficial burns, have you ever known anyone that even came close to this level of damage from a revolver?

I sure haven't.

shlomo
November 20, 2008, 19:45
Originally posted by RollerCam
I still find it hard to believe that [i]gas pressure can sever bone.[/]

Has this whole incident been disproven by Snopes, yet?

Other than minor, superficial burns, have you ever known anyone that even came close to this level of damage from a revolver?

I sure haven't.

This apparently has at least some element of truth to it. Not long ago, a former Atlanta PD offical named Eldrin Bell got his thumb lacerated in exactly the same way, also with a .460. This was on the local news. Evidently Bell and a few political chums were enjoying a few beers at a rural fund raiser, and decided it would be a good idea to shoot the hand-cannon some. Bell got his digit in a bad place and let drive with a round. You can guess the rest.

ETA link:
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/clayton/stories/2008/06/30/gun_burns_eldrin_bell.html

Evidently, it was a .50, not a .46.

RollerCam
November 21, 2008, 01:14
FROM Article: (the revolver) "really cauterized, burned my thumb" http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/clayton/stories/2008/06/30/gun_burns_eldrin_bell.html

That more like what I'd expect to see.

Think of the actual time period that flame and gasses erupt from a revolver's cylinder gap... I know it's less than 1/10th of a second... I'd bet that some other cause for "the mangled thumb" comes up in the trial.

Or maybe I'm just too skeptical...

shlomo
November 21, 2008, 07:32
Bell's characterization of the damage may be too slight. When I saw the story on TV, it sounded more like it was cut very badly, to the extent of being about halfway to severed.

In the original case discussed here, I have trouble with the notion that the gas could cut thru bone, but two other possibilities exist. One is that the gas went thru the relatively soft joint tissue, and the other is that the surgeon removed the bone above the damaged area because the surrounding tissue was unsalvageable.

High-pressure gas is not to be underestimated. A friend of mine who used to work in the nuclear power industry has told me about live steam in a reactor severing the hand of one of the workers there years ago. And Massad Ayoob told the story about a decade ago about a woman who was about to be raped, turning loose a 4" .44 magnum in contact with the wrist of her attacker. He says the gas ball peeled the guys forearm flesh back like a banana.

I'm not gonna look it up, but I'll bet that the .460 and .500 operate at or above the pressure of a .44.

tracyballard
November 21, 2008, 11:06
Originally posted by shlomo
I have trouble with the notion that the gas could cut thru bone...

since they stopped making them because of problems with the gas cutting the top strap, I would think there would be enough pressure to sever bone, just thinking about it. I'm pretty sure the .460 mag operates at about as high a pressure as exists in handgunning (it's around 65,000 psi).

Pistolwiz
November 21, 2008, 11:41
Working on aircraft in the USAF.......One of the first things pointed out in training is that the hydraulic system works at 3kPSI. A leak at that pressure can be so fine that it can't be seen until too late. If close enough the stream will cut off an arm or leg. I can believe that a gas at 50k plus will do much the same if the flesh and bone encountered is close enough.

shlomo
November 21, 2008, 12:35
From a Shooting Times article online:

"It is particularly significant that even though the .500 S&W Magnum cartridge tops out at more than a ton and a quarter of muzzle energy, all the loads operate under 50,000 psi, which, incidentally, is significantly less than the 60,000 psi SAAMI-limit MAP for the smaller caliber .454 Casull. "

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/monster_1103/

tracyballard
November 21, 2008, 12:49
Originally posted by shlomo
From a Shooting Times article online:

significantly less than the 60,000 psi SAAMI-limit MAP for the smaller caliber .454 Casull.

/[/url]

since the .460 mag is really just a stretched out .454 casull, I guess that sounds about right.

shlomo
November 21, 2008, 13:28
Originally posted by Gunpartsguy
Working on aircraft in the USAF.......One of the first things pointed out in training is that the hydraulic system works at 3kPSI. A leak at that pressure can be so fine that it can't be seen until too late. If close enough the stream will cut off an arm or leg. I can believe that a gas at 50k plus will do much the same if the flesh and bone encountered is close enough.

I'll tell you what I'd do if I had one of these cannons. In the spirit of inquiry, I'd tie a thawed chicken leg next to the flash-gap, and turn a round loose just to see what happened. Probably make a bit of a mess, but that's what cleaning gear is for, eh wot?:)

In fact, if still owned a revolver of any kind, I'd give this a try. I know this a great blasphemy in this forum, but I've been a 1911-only kinda guy for at least the last 15 years.

indy_Muaddib
November 21, 2008, 23:51
gas vs hotdog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu3RO3Lr4fM

gas vs carrot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUiRoggh2Y

tracyballard
November 22, 2008, 00:32
maybe if you took the chicken leg and put some bbq sauce on it, shot a whole session with it about a foot away from the cylinder and rotated it occasionally.....well, you know, like those dudes that cook a meal in their engine compartment while they're driving down the highway...

shlomo
November 22, 2008, 06:51
Indy,

Kinda interesting to actually see it on video, but unsurprising. After all, you can cut a carrot or a hotdog in half with a string. What I'm craving a look at is on of those bad boys cutting a 1/2" diameter bone (like a chicken legbone). That would totally convince me.

Not that I'm not 3/4 of the way there already.

Any takers on the chicken leg?

L Haney
November 23, 2008, 17:06
Originally posted by shlomo


I'll tell you what I'd do if I had one of these cannons. In the spirit of inquiry, I'd tie a thawed chicken leg next to the flash-gap, and turn a round loose just to see what happened. Probably make a bit of a mess, but that's what cleaning gear is for, eh wot?:)

In fact, if still owned a revolver of any kind, I'd give this a try. I know this a great blasphemy in this forum, but I've been a 1911-only kinda guy for at least the last 15 years.

Shlomo, those cannons don't have a flash gap. The chamber is integral to the barrel and the whole thing is captured in the body of the cannon. Far as I know that goes for .308 to 30 mm. Mini gun to GAU-8. Did I misunderstand?

Lowell

Edit: Crap, I did, you were speakin of hand cannons. My bad!

patrick kelly
November 24, 2008, 12:13
Originally posted by indy_Muaddib
gas vs hotdog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu3RO3Lr4fM

gas vs carrot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsUiRoggh2Y

I swear, the world of youtube gun videos is populated by morons with no sense of safety and/or discipline. By and large they're the best case I've ever seen for a complete gun ban.

shlomo
November 24, 2008, 12:38
Both the antics on YouTube and the recent election of Precedent Uhh-Bama are strong evidence supporting my theory that we are in the salad days of the coming Idiocracy.:(

trucksurfer
November 24, 2008, 12:44
Originally posted by patrick kelly


I swear, the world of youtube gun videos is populated by morons with no sense of safety and/or discipline. By and large they're the best case I've ever seen for a complete gun ban.

You are correct sir, and to think Youtube, Hollyweird, and the Clinton News Network are about the only exposure to guns that many people have. No wonder so many people joined Rosie and Al for the Million Mom March...

Para Driver
November 25, 2008, 16:10
Originally posted by indy_Muaddib
gas vs hotdog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu3RO3Lr4fM



What a douchebag, getting snow on that nice 29..