View Full Version : Opinions please in this matter

John Crusher
June 27, 2008, 16:17
I traded for a FAL with a member of the forum. It was represented as a Factory rifle. I have since found out that this rifle was built between 6/07-8/07 by a non class 7. It was sold /traded in 8/07 for the first time. I know who received the receiver and what State it was sent to. I have contacted the Dealer, the original first owner and of course the gentleman I traded with. The missing link is the first purchaser of the receiver who is the builder. This firearm according to the ATF is in violation of the GCA of the law and also the issue of civil liability comes to mind. I am hoping the individual that has my phone no. calls me within a reasonable amount of time but if he doesn't, would it be correct to report this to the ATF and let them run with? I hate like heZZ to ruin a persons life and force him to get rid of all his firearms, but I just will not ever be comfortable with this rifle. I would appreciate any input. Thanks, John.

June 27, 2008, 16:32
I'm reluctant to get involved in such a dispute, but why exactly is this rifle in violation of any of the gun control acts?

June 27, 2008, 16:33
How is the rifle in violation? 922r?

June 27, 2008, 16:48
Was it built in a state that prohibits ownership? You're online and in the RKBA & Legal forum, how about some answers.

June 27, 2008, 16:51
You're gonna have to give us more info.

V guy
June 27, 2008, 16:56
Not me, but since I'm wound up.... I'm curious, what's a non class 7??? I've never heard that terminology used before.....sounds like bureaucratic speak.....you have dilbert training for sure....

You say that you ALREADY contacted the BATF and got a ruling that some weapon in your possession that is now at least a "3 owner gun" is in violation of the GCA of the law and civil liability comes to mind".......huh??

What are you saying? You are making almost no sense but then you probably intend it so sound like this......make it clear to us who you are what your real beef is...lay it out...don't beat around the bush...sounds like you want to entrap someone here instead of get some resolution..the question is "whodunnit" if "whodunnit" is even germane with a used three owner weapon...is it even an FAL?

hmmmm "John Crusher"...sounds like you is BATF youse self. Guess you got some "John" to crush...."John Crusher".

Please react angrily, if possible

Hot Diggity
June 27, 2008, 17:25
John must be a busy guy, so I searched around and found out that a "Class 7"
is a non-NFA firearm manufacturer. So someone built the rifle from a parts kit,
and sold it. Not a problem, unless they're building more, and making a profit at it.

"Factory rifle" it apparently isn't. Is this the chief concern?

Reporting this to the BATFE could have unintended consequences.


John Crusher
June 27, 2008, 17:36
O.K. I'll be clear! I trade a S.A. M1A with accessories for a DSA SA58. I went to shoot this rifle and the front sight turned all the way down still shot too high. Five days later I went to clean it. When I disassembled the bolt I found the firing pin was broken. I called DSA to see if this was covered under warranty and was told the receiver was sold bare and not a rifle. I contacted the parties involved, Not the ATF. It was shipped as a bare receiver 6/07 and sold as a rifle 8/07. It is not F.A. It has compliant parts. V Guy, for your information a Class 7 is a Manufacturer and pays an excise tax when they build rifles. I traded for a DSA not a homebuilt that was built illegally for sale by a non liscenced individual. Any more Questions? please ask. I am an 03C&R collector and would just as soon keep the wolves at bay. I keep my records straight so I'm not worried ,I just want to settle this.

June 27, 2008, 17:42
John, unless the guy derives his principal income from that, he's not a dealer nor does he need a form 7. If he has a shingle and that's his business or at least 80% of his income he is. Sounds like a hobby build to me. Otherwise, the seller just mis-represented the rifle, that simple. Ask to unwind the deal and keep shopping, as it wasn't fairly represented.

There is now some sort of threshhold where if one builds more than 20 of anything a year, or some such they need a form 7.

June 27, 2008, 17:47
"I went to shoot this rifle and the front sight turned all the way down still shot too high."

Doesnt lowering the front site raise point of impact?

And I dont think you need a class 7 unless you are MANUFACTURING rifles, not needed for assembling parts kits.

You have been on this board for over 2.5 years and have never seen anyone sell a home built FAL ?

June 27, 2008, 17:47
Originally posted by John Crusher
O.K. I'll be clear! I trade a S.A. M1A with accessories for a DSA SA58. I went to shoot this rifle and the front sight turned all the way down still shot too high.

If it shot high you want TO RAISE THE front sight. :uhoh:


June 27, 2008, 17:55
I think you are making WAY to much to do about nothing.

How do you know that the homebuilt gun is illegal?
About the sights and broken firing pin, give me a break.

IF the seller stated in writing that it was a Factory Built DSA rifle you have a valid complaint and a civil case.

Otherwise you don't have anything but a sob story and buyers remorse.


John Crusher
June 27, 2008, 17:56
I sure said that bass ackwards, I meant too low. Duh! I am readind the code and it says"With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale". That is verbatim from the regs.

June 27, 2008, 17:58
Do you have a copy of the ad? Has the seller refused to undo the trade?
Is the seller a respected member of this board?

June 27, 2008, 18:02
Originally posted by John Crusher
I am readind the code and it says"With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a nonlicensee provided it is not for sale". That is verbatim from the regs.

I believe you are referring to making a firearm as in taking a chunk of steel and whittling it to shape.

Someone legally bought that DSA receiver assembled it. They did not make a firearm.

This is done all the time legally and it can be sold. You just can't be in the "business" of assembling firearms without a license.

One or two a year is not being in the business.


June 27, 2008, 18:05
If the seller said it was a DSA factory build and it is actually a home build I'd raise hell too. You probably paid more for the rifle than it is worth. Not illegal but misrepresented. Out the scoundrel, tell us who sold it to you.

June 27, 2008, 18:07
John, the reg you are referring to is the one for making your own receiver with your own numbers, not a factory-made one. Like bending an AK on your own. Can't sell it.

John Crusher
June 27, 2008, 18:40
I appreciate the input and even the barbs. I am crystal when it comes to C&R firearms but this whole deal first pizzed me off and then kinda' shook me up a little. I'll go from here. Thanks.

June 27, 2008, 18:44
John, Who was the trade with? Would like to know so I don't ever deal with them.

You should have known better to do such a deal without checking. DSA sells stripped receivers and they aren't marked any differently than their rifles. They have confirmed every one of my FALs prior to purchase. If a seller won't give me the serial # for confirmation I tell them to get lost. Had you called and asked DSA to confirm build date and options you wouldn't be in this mess. I just did it last week. Either part it out or sell it off with full disclosure. Call it a lesson learned.

John Crusher
June 27, 2008, 19:15
The rifle was represented as a DSA FAL from the builder. No one questioned it from the beginning. I have learned a very valuable lesson. I will not disclose the sellers name as all concerned were duped. I feel that the seller is a standup guy and we will resolve it with no problem. Now I'm gonna put the Isreali wood on her that I just refinished and enjoy it. Se la vie!

V guy
June 27, 2008, 19:17
We're not so bad to deal with, some of us are a little dense, just tell it like it is......