FN Fiveseven kaboom....not me

[IronSkegge]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=362563

member named f3rr37

"As some of you already know I had a malfunction of my dearly beloved FN FiveseveN IOM pistol, which I used as a CCW for just over 1 year, that caused my gun to literally explode in my hands.

On Saturday, April 12, 2008, at 1528HRS I was out target shooting and testing some ammunition that I had reloaded. Before anyone says, "It was a reload, he probably double charged it!" let me say this:
I did not double charge this load, everything was well within specifications.

I had loaded 200 rounds of the following:
Bullet: Hornady 55grain FMJ BT
Case: Once (a couple might have been twice) fired 5.7x28mm brass
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Powder: Ramshot TrueBlue 5.0grains
Case Length: 1.228in + or - .002in
OAL: 1.580in + or - .003in

I load every single round by hand using a Lee hand press, RCBS 5-0-5 Scale, RCBS calipers, RCBS seating die, etc... Each round is placed in front of me with plenty of lighting while I am measuring powder, then after all powder is measured and placed in the cases I inspect the case for powder, as even 1.0grains more or less is quite easy to see, then placed in the hand press, topped off with a bullet, and then the bullet is seated. If the powder was double charged it would fill up into the base of the case's neck. Like I said, cases are inspected for overcharges.

Back to the accident. I had fired 66 rounds all reloads of various bullets (Hornady 40grain VMAX, pulled 28grain HP from SS195LF, Hornady 55grain FMJ). My 2nd 20round magazine I fired 5 rounds of 40VMAX I had some failure-to-eject (these were loaded with HS-6, I've had problems with that powder causing FTE), then tossed the magazine so I could pull those bullets and reload them with Ramshot TrueBlue. After that I fired 20 rounds of the 28grain bullets, all of which functioned flawlessly with Ramshot TrueBlue powder. The next magazine of 20 rounds was the 55grain FMJ with the load data above. The first magazine fired flawlessly, I even noted in my reloading book that it I might want to try loading to 5.1grains and see how they functioned. The 2nd magazine is when I ran into the malfunction, the first round fired like the previous 20, the it happened.

On the 2nd round I realigned my sights, slowly pulled the trigger, and all hell broke loose. I saw bits and pieces of the top of the slide cover blow. My first reaction was, "Oh crap what just happened." My second reaction was, how are my hands, I released my grip with my left hand and blood was trailing down my palm dripping off my hand. I could see 2 sources of the blood flow, one on my thumb and the other the web of my hand. I tossed down my FiveseveN into the grass in front of me and inspected my right hand. My right hand faired much better than my left, a small spot on the tip of my thumb.

I immediately pulled my cellphone out of my pocket and called my wife who had just arrived at my father's residence where I was at, I was ~1/2mi from the house. I told her to tell my dad to get out here, my gun just exploded, and not 2 seconds later I heard the 4wheeler start up and hightail it down the driveway. I started walking to the gravel road to meet him and he quickly arrived and assessed my injuries. We went back to the house, cleaned my hand up a bit, bandaged it up, and went to the hospital ~40minutes away with my wife and mother-in-law.

Spent about 2 hours at the hospital getting 1 stitch in the web of my hand and 2 xrays. The xrays revealed a chunk of brass in the middle of my hand between my index and middle finger, and two very small peices between my index finger knuckle and the web of my hand. I have gone to a surgeon to see about getting the large piece of brass removed from my hand but he cautioned against it as it would cause more damage taking it out than leaving it in, as it is embedded into the muscle in my hand a probably isn't going to go anywhere so there isn't any worry about it moving around and slicing tendons and such.

I initially lost feeling in over 50% of my index finger and my thumb felt like it had been hit by a hammer and had numbness for about a week. I have gained some feeling back in my finger and am at ~35% numbness now.

My FN FiveseveN IOM is a complete loss, the magazine is still inside the grip, the remaining 18 rounds were forced out of the bottom of the magazine."

follow the link for the rest of the story and hand damage pictures

http://i28.tinypic.com/5x3609.jpg

http://i31.tinypic.com/2rrozgi.jpg

[M829A3]

Just a question for the plastic versus steel crowd, in a kaboom situation, do you think he would have faired a bit better with a steel framed gun? I think the frame would have held together, what do you think?

[hagar]

Frankly, I suspect his reloading skills. Either he had a squib and did not check the barrel, or he was loading max loads and did not heed pressure signs, or he had an overcharge, or used a large rifle magnum primer.

How come with most of these kabooms it is always a reload?

[MAINER]

hagar; Woulda been a neat trick to get a "large rifle magnum primer" into a small primer pocket. We can probly rule that out. ;)

Don't know anything about these pistols or the 5.7 X 28 ? cartridge, so I'm guessing the load is within safe limits?

Load data recommends bullet weights up to 45gr.
Check out Note #3. Must be a reason for that.

Found some info here;

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/loadguide/2007/5.7x28FN%20vs%20Ramshot%20only.pdf

Ramshot powders
Caliber:
5.7mmx28 FN

Special Notes:
1) This is an extremely sensitive caliber, please adhere closely to indicated loads and COL guidelines.
2) Allways begin loading at the MINIMUM "START" load and increase with 0.1grain increments
3) We strongly recommend using only FLATBASE bullets (especially in the Handgun)
4) When SP primers are to be used, a slightly lower performance can be expected
5) Add 10% to the above published velocities for the 10" barrel of the FN P90 PDW weapon
6) Excessive muzzle blast and flash is normal with this caliber

Bottom line is; Reloads = Voided warrenty

[lew]

Originally posted by hagar
Frankly, I suspect his reloading skills. Either he had a squib and did not check the barrel, or he was loading max loads and did not heed pressure signs, or he had an overcharge, or used a large rifle magnum primer.

How come with most of these kabooms it is always a reload?

That's what the consensus was over on ar15.com. I agree.

[K.O.A.M.]

There is a really long thread on this on the 5.7 Forum. The owner believes that his pistol fired out of battery due to a design defect, where derbris blocked the safety notch that it supposed to keep it from happening. FN says only use factory loads in the pistol. These things run so hot already, any defects in the ammo could cause real problems.

[Manedwolf]

It does seem to always be a reload when this happens.

Still, the fact that the kaboom blew the entire frame out and down through the trigger assembly is a bit disconcerting. :uhoh:

[Bubacus]

I'm not blaming anyone here, but if the ATF just took it a little easier on the restrictions on this ammo, it would be more affordable for factory ammo and less stuff like this would happen.

[EBRfan]

Also a very long thread on the FNForum.net. Consensus based on the back and forth as well as info from FN is that the gun will not fire out out battery, but the factory rounds are designed with such a loading to match the required timing of the gun. Non-factory loads (i.e. "hot" ones) could cause the action to open before the chamber pressures come down to safe levels. Anyway, that is what I got out of the discussion. YMMV.

Regarding the available ammo, my understanding is that this is FNs choice to restrict the offerings, not the BATFE's, to avoid political issues. Could be inaccurate internet chatter, however.

For what it is worth, I have both a Five-seveN and PS90 using this chambering and have never had an issue. I'm very happy with them for what they are. I'm glad at least some manufacturers are innovating and offering their products to the US market (hear that H&K?).

[FAL freek]

Anybody else read his April 29 posting about how they would send him a prepackaged envelope and they would examine the gun for 30 days then destroy it? Crap if that isn't a classic way to avoid a lawsuit. Sounds like FNs already contacted their legal team. That guy send his gun back to them he ain't the brightest bulb.

[Para Driver]

well, he might notice a full grain load difference, but not a half a grain..
and that's enough to go over the top.. notice that he does not say he weighed every charge, and I think he might have used a automatic powder dispenser??

I also suspect reloading error..

[chromestarhustler]

Notice how these guys always insist they did nothing wrong the gun just blew up on reloads? wonder how factory ammo compares now with reloads based on the price to replace the weapon.

[FAL freek]

Originally posted by chromestarhustler
Notice how these guys always insist they did nothing wrong the gun just blew up on reloads? wonder how factory ammo compares now with reloads based on the price to replace the weapon. Will say this much, had a buddy that had a Para Ordnance P14 45 that took a reload round with too much powder. Blew the mag out of the gun and that was about it. He didn't require stitches and the gun sure as hell didn't blow into pieces. He still shoots the gun today. Never have cared too much for guns with plastic frames.

[yarro]

Looking at the now straight walled case stuck in the slide. I would say that he had an unlocked or partial locked ignition. If the pressure was too high in the case, the casehead usually ruptures or pulls off as the case sticks in the chamber. I have personally seen four cases of blown up rifle caliber firearms, which this cartidge has more in common with than most pistol rounds. Two were pressure related and left part or most of the case in the chamber. The other two were unlocked/partially locked ignition and the entire case came out of the chamber before blowing out. The over pressures were the least damaging. The unlocked ignitions completely destroyed an AR upper, lower, magazine, bolt, barrel extension and damaged an MG42 receiver, bolthead, top cover, and feedtray. He was lucky that the explosion went down as in all four of the cases that I have been at the person caught brass or pieces of receiver in the face. When the case pulled out of the chamber with the pressure still high it dumped most of the energy down into the trigger area and pushed the barrel down bending the slide up. A steel frame would have caused the force to take another direction and possibly caused the slide to break into pieces. If he had a bullet in the bore that should be obvious, but we don't have pictures of the barrel removed from the slide.

I have been around for two overpressures in handguns. Both were with surplus ammo in 9mm. One was a Glock and it blew out the magazine guts, and the extractor as well as cracked the metal block in the frame and broke the ejector. Glock fixed it. The other was a Spanish made 9mm made by Star. It blew the magazine out, cracked the grips, and embedded brass in his boots. A new magazine and grip panels put it back in order. I think that the Glock was Canadian ball and the temp was over 100F and it pushed the pressure up too much. The other was Isreali that was probably tumbled clean and rubbed off too much of the retardant of the outside of the powder grains or was SMG only ammo. I have seen the aftermath of a stuck bullet in a Glock .40 and it destroyed the gun. The person got off with a very sore trigger finger I was told and a lesson that if the gun doesn't function correctly then tap, rack, boom may result.

-Yarro

[Gopher]

We had a PS90 blow at our range. The owner later told me he was loading 55 gr, .224 bullets per a recipe on the web. The 5.7 x 28 is a high pressure round and I think a 55 gr bullet is too heavy without some major thought to powder and primer selection. Weighting each load is essential.
My .02