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View Full Version : I'm from the gov. give me your ammo.


johnny.308
May 01, 2008, 12:07
I don't know if anyone is paying any attention to all of the ammunition micro imprinting legislation that is out there, but I believe that 10 states are now considering this. What most people are unaware of is that most of these plans also include the provision that ALL unmarked ammo be surrendered to the authorities. How many thousands of rounds do you have held in reserve? Hmmm? I just dumped all of mine in the lake.

owlcreekok
May 01, 2008, 12:22
Here's how part of it will be:

Our club range will be required to fund an off duty LEO to be present during hours of operation. This person will verify by some means that the ammo has the required pedigree.

Purchase of hunting licenses will have an encoding that will be produced when purchasing rifle ammo. (pistol will be similar)

Powder, primers, etc. will be unavailable unless the $*****.00 tax and permit is remitted and secured.

Being in possession of ammo sans the proper qualification will be as the possession of a happy switch or suppressor is today.........15 and 15 first offense.

To think that there are actually members of this board who have or will soon vote for either Clinton or Obama sickens me beyond description. The only thing that sickens me more is to consider how those kinds of people (the voter and the votees) made it this far at all.

:sad:

RT
May 01, 2008, 12:35
( ALL unmarked ammo be surrendered to the authorities. ) will I get new ammo for my old ammo? or will they".Gov' pay me $100.00 plus for a BP ? can they just take my ammo without paying me so i can get new ammo ? ---i am not a harvard grad but aint there a thing about being comped if the gov takes your stuff?~R

aepgilli
May 01, 2008, 12:57
But, but, but, it's...it's... it's FOR THE CHILDREN, I'm sure you understand.

AndyC
May 01, 2008, 12:57
I don't have any ammo :|

Muggzy
May 01, 2008, 13:00
Can you imagine all the people bringing their ammo to the State Police Station?\
man...they would have a semi truck full. Then the tax payers will have to pay to have disposed of :rofl:

Bullsit is 'bout all I can say

jaykden
May 01, 2008, 13:30
so when everyone tells the cops at the door, "sorry sir, i have no ammo".

will they get search warrants for EVERYONE who says they have no ammo?




how does .gov know who has ammo? will they raid online companies and local stores to get customer lists? will they raid gunshops for 4473s and figure anyone with a firearm has ammo?

lets say i bought 200 rounds of rifle ammo at fred meyers or walmart. would those co.'s give .gov a list of what ammo i bought from them? then, what if i shot it all up at the range? i tell the cop, i have no ammo, i shot it all up. then what?


how will this affect reloaders? what about those of us that cast our own bullets?


maybe now is the time to load up on powder and primers? (i'm doing GREAT on powder, but need to buy lots more primers to equal what i have in powder.



personally, i doubt this will go through, at least to the extent mentioned here, there are just too many fudds that will scream "FOUL". and we all know there are alot of fudds in america.

Muggzy
May 01, 2008, 13:35
I can drive for 45 minutes and buy ammo in another State. How are they going to controll that?

Scott S
May 01, 2008, 13:56
Originally posted by johnny.308
... How many thousands of rounds do you have held in reserve? Hmmm? I just dumped all of mine in the lake.

Good lord man, are you smoking crack? What you meant to say was "I pulled the bullets, diluted the powder with water to make it safe and poured it in my vegetable garden as fertilizer, and donated the remaining components as scrap when I made my monthly run to the local metal recycling center."

In addition to being politically correct, we must be environmentally correct, too.

I think it'll play out along the lines of what owl suggests. You can have literally a ton of ammo sitting at home and not make a blip on the PTB radar, but the first time you try to use a round you'll find yourself forfeiting your contraband.

411man
May 01, 2008, 14:04
Originally posted by owlcreekok
Here's how part of it will be:

Our club range will be required to fund an off duty LEO to be present during hours of operation. This person will verify by some means that the ammo has the required pedigree.

Purchase of hunting licenses will have an encoding that will be produced when purchasing rifle ammo. (pistol will be similar)

Powder, primers, etc. will be unavailable unless the $*****.00 tax and permit is remitted and secured.

Being in possession of ammo sans the proper qualification will be as the possession of a happy switch or suppressor is today.........15 and 15 first offense.

To think that there are actually members of this board who have or will soon vote for either Clinton or Obama sickens me beyond description. The only thing that sickens me more is to consider how those kinds of people (the voter and the votees) made it this far at all.

:sad:


Amen, Roger that, etc.

Can those persons define suicide to their Rights?

411man
May 01, 2008, 14:09
Originally posted by jaykden
so when everyone tells the cops at the door, "sorry sir, i have no ammo".

will they get search warrants for EVERYONE who says they have no ammo?




how does .gov know who has ammo? will they raid online companies and local stores to get customer lists? will they raid gunshops for 4473s and figure anyone with a firearm has ammo?

lets say i bought 200 rounds of rifle ammo at fred meyers or walmart. would those co.'s give .gov a list of what ammo i bought from them? then, what if i shot it all up at the range? i tell the cop, i have no ammo, i shot it all up. then what?


how will this affect reloaders? what about those of us that cast our own bullets?


maybe now is the time to load up on powder and primers? (i'm doing GREAT on powder, but need to buy lots more primers to equal what i have in powder.



personally, i doubt this will go through, at least to the extent mentioned here, there are just too many fudds that will scream "FOUL". and we all know there are alot of fudds in america.



Saddly, " Probable Cause " has been so distended in its meaning and application that search warrents will not be required.

How long before it is found that hand loaded ammunition is no longer legal as it is not in compliance with the micro-marked required on ammunition? Try immediately.

411man
May 01, 2008, 14:14
Originally posted by Muggzy
I can drive for 45 minutes and buy ammo in another State. How are they going to controll that?

I wish there was a written guarantee that road block searches on the interstates would not be used along with a computerized data base on weapon and ammunition owners as a probable cause source.

Illurian00
May 01, 2008, 14:37
We can talk to each other all we want. If anything our time is better spent harangueing our so called representatives.

One company has the technology to do this stuff. They are trying to create a market for it. Just as 'Diebold' is pushing electronic voting.

The question is,,,can they buy enough votes to pass the legislation to over-ride our collective consternation ?

owlcreekok
May 01, 2008, 14:45
We can talk to each other all we want. If anything our time is better spent hanging our so called representatives.


Fixed it fer ya.

Not from the "neck until dead", mind you. "Hang" them out to dry on the street minus a job.

Kyrottimus
May 01, 2008, 15:00
If anyone recalls, the first shots of the Revolution were fired when the Brits were on their way to confiscate ammo from "uncooperative" colonial subjects.

FWIW

DJ
May 01, 2008, 15:01
Originally posted by jaykden



how will this affect reloaders? what about those of us that cast our own bullets?





The proposed law in Pennsylvania will prohibit reloading.

Para Driver
May 01, 2008, 15:06
like everything else contraband, the black market will provide...

illegal guns cost LESS than legal ones, you can buy a hot glock in many bars for $100...

TFA303
May 01, 2008, 15:19
Claire Wolfe time again....

owlcreekok
May 01, 2008, 15:35
Yup.

:beer:

Outlaw Patriot
May 01, 2008, 16:10
Originally posted by Muggzy
Can you imagine all the people bringing their ammo to the State Police Station?\
man...they would have a semi truck full. Then the tax payers will have to pay to have disposed of :rofl:

Bullsit is 'bout all I can say

Hmm, maybe I should move to one of these states, become a cop, help them dispose of said ammo if the law passes, then quite a couple months later.

You think they'd mind that?




I really doubt too many states will pass these laws though. It would just make things too expensive and the gun industry has lobbyists to protect their interests, and those of their customers. This would really hurt ammo manufacturers so I doubt it will happen.

AndyC
May 01, 2008, 16:40
Originally posted by Kyrottimus
If anyone recalls, the first shots of the Revolution were fired when the Brits were on their way to confiscate ammo from "uncooperative" colonial subjects.

FWIW
Well, count this Brit on the colonials' side now :beer:

Stranger
May 01, 2008, 17:10
Originally posted by W.E.G.
You will be paid exactly what your ammo is worth - which is ZERO, because it will be contraband.

They don't pay dope dealers the fair market value of that contraband when its seized.

Are you sure about that? I understood that if fed.gov wants to make something illegal (that was previously legal) they are required to either grandfather in the existing "illegal" materials (through registration or other means) or offer compensation for it should it be seized.

It is private property and I assume it would be protected by the Fifth. If the feds make ammunition illegal based on some perceived notion that it would increase public safety wouldn't that also be interpreted as "public use" of the property even if it was going to be destroyed?

brownknees
May 01, 2008, 17:30
Are you sure about that? I understood that if fed.gov wants to make something illegal (that was previously legal) they are required to either grandfather in the existing "illegal" materials (through registration or other means) or offer compensation for it should it be seized.
It didn't work that way in NYC with the "assault weapons restriction" there was a 30 days to "trade, or sell" it out of the city, or surrender for diddly/squat.
It wasn't determined illegal, either.

Stranger
May 01, 2008, 17:41
How does that work? If a city/state were to pass a law making private real estate ownership illegal it would suddenly be okay to do so as long as people were given notice? How does that jive with SCOTUS decisions?

Kyrottimus
May 01, 2008, 18:43
Originally posted by AndyC

Well, count this Brit on the colonials' side now :beer:

As I've said before, Andy. We're damn glad to have you man! :beer:

Cheers.

[Ed - You don't have to be born in America to be an American. And you're more of an American than many I know who were born here.]

2barearms
May 01, 2008, 19:46
I shot it all:D

bykerhd
May 01, 2008, 20:12
I can see LOTS of "Mad Minutes" going on at ranges around the country if such foolishness goes nationwide.
Lots of folks won't surrender their ammo.
But they won't hang on to it either if it becomes illegal.

1stSSPZ
May 01, 2008, 20:59
I promise you, I will show these bastards exactly how much ammo I DO have.....

At some point, we will all have to realize, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!:mad:

Duke_Spinner
May 02, 2008, 07:45
hhhmmnnn ..

like ...

when they come for your guns ..
give 'en the Ammo first ..?

icwells
May 02, 2008, 08:03
Originally posted by Duke_Spinner
hhhmmnnn ..

like ...

when they come for your guns ..
give 'en the Ammo first ..?

We'll still have our bayonets!

Much as I hate to admit it, this really does sound like a conspiracy. First, ammo prices soar; then they pass this ammo id thing, which will make it more expensive; and, lastly, they outlaw hand loading. Hmm....

bill3542
May 02, 2008, 08:10
The proposed law in Pa will go nowhere.rural Reps and Senators know its a load of B.S.

Sailor553
May 02, 2008, 08:25
Flint locks and wheel lugs.....that's the ticket.

williamsmith707
May 02, 2008, 08:32
Know thy enemy.

These guys (http://www.ravensforgeconeg.com/ravensforge_skateblock/ravensforge_skateblock.htm) started out selling gizmos to keep people from skateboarding on rails, steps, etc. whatever. Then they got the bright idea to serialize every bullet. They patened the technology and stand to make millions if they can only get it adopted.

Their new company is ACS - Ammunition Coding Systems, with an address in Seattle. They are the ones doing the lobbying, and probably writing the actual bills that are being introduced around the country. You will also see "Ravensforge" referenced in many of the lobbying efforts - their original mfg company.

http://www.ammocoding.com/

The principals:
Russ Ford
Steve Mace
John Knickerbocker

justashooter
May 02, 2008, 09:42
Originally posted by DJ



The proposed law in Pennsylvania will prohibit reloading.

dead in the water in a state in which 15 million people own 30 million guns, and 25% of the population in non-urban areas have carry permits.

johnny.308
May 02, 2008, 11:18
I believe the law has already passed in the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia, the micro coding portion anyway. I may be mistaken.

bykerhd
May 02, 2008, 11:27
The Governator signed the Micro-stamping into Kali law.:rolleyes:
The Libs and Antis don't really care if the law is obeyed or not.
Not yet anyway.
They will eventually make us all either obey or become criminals.
We're not a problem if we obey and, eventually, when they feel confident of their numbers and support, they can unleash the "Dogs of Law" on the remaining "Law Breakers".
Or, they can selectively hammer "criminals" and use the PR from those incidents to pass more restrictive laws. Kind of like what has happened in the U.K.

owlcreekok
May 02, 2008, 12:40
Originally posted by Sailor553
Flint locks and wheel lugs.....that's the ticket.

I rarely drag out the flintlock Hawken or the persuction Renegade. Maybe twice't a y'ar. Usually go thru a pound or so of Goex ever two or three years.
Lotsa uses fer g'lena, flint, caps & FFg.

'Course I ain't got none just now.

:angel:

fastfreddy
May 02, 2008, 15:16
Originally posted by williamsmith707
Know thy enemy.

These guys (http://www.ravensforgeconeg.com/ravensforge_skateblock/ravensforge_skateblock.htm) started out selling gizmos to keep people from skateboarding on rails, steps, etc. whatever. Then they got the bright idea to serialize every bullet. They patened the technology and stand to make millions if they can only get it adopted.

Their new company is ACS - Ammunition Coding Systems, with an address in Seattle. They are the ones doing the lobbying, and probably writing the actual bills that are being introduced around the country. You will also see "Ravensforge" referenced in many of the lobbying efforts - their original mfg company.

http://www.ammocoding.com/

The principals:
Russ Ford
Steve Mace
John Knickerbocker

Just reiterating this information. This crap is being pushed by a private company.

ACS has inhouse lawyers drawing up identical proposals for legislators in the various states. Every state has at least one legislator who is happy to disregard the Constitution and submit such a bill.

Be VERY DILIGENT and PROACTIVE on this one. That lobbying money talks. At the first whiff of this stench, a massive letter writing campaign is in order.

bykerhd
May 02, 2008, 16:45
The company BEHIND all this crap needs to be dragged out in to the spotlight.
A huge scam is being foisted on the U.S. public with the assistance of the Antis and their Liberal friends.
It needs to be exposed.

English Mike
May 02, 2008, 17:15
Originally posted by bykerhd
The company BEHIND all this crap needs to be dragged out in to the spotlight.
A huge scam is being foisted on the U.S. public with the assistance of the Antis and their Liberal friends.
It needs to be exposed.

There's nothing I can find on the NRA site linking this company to the recent rash of micro-stamping Bills - has anyone made them aware as to who is behind it?

deerollman
May 02, 2008, 18:00
Originally posted by owlcreekok
To think that there are actually members of this board who have or will soon vote for either Clinton or Obama sickens me beyond description. The only thing that sickens me more is to consider how those kinds of people (the voter and the votees) made it this far at all.

:sad:

and, unfortunately, i doubt MCCain would hesitate to sign such a law.

smokingun45
May 02, 2008, 18:08
Since I don't have any ammo, this won't apply to me......:rofl: :rolleyes:

C2A1
May 02, 2008, 18:32
There is some technology out there, that will allow "intelligent" tagging. It is different than chemical or RFID devices. It would however allow interrogation remotly as to the item(s) and it's location. It is being looked at for "future applications"...........

brownknees
May 02, 2008, 18:42
I haven't bought any ammo in years, I guess I don't have any left as I have witnesses to me using up whatever I had.:devil:

FTW2012
May 02, 2008, 20:14
If they want the ammo, give it to them, one round at a time from the roof tops!
I'm sure they'll baack down

BiggerHammer24
May 02, 2008, 21:45
When the cops and the crooks are the only ones who will have ammo and guns it won't be long and you won't see any differance in eather, and we the people will be the sheep for all to pray on. I am glad I am a old man i may not live to see it:D BiggerHammer

cotter
May 02, 2008, 23:26
Originally posted by ENGLISH MIKE


There's nothing I can find on the NRA site linking this company to the recent rash of micro-stamping Bills - has anyone made them aware as to who is behind it?
The NRA does not care until it is 'introduced' in your state and they can instill panic in their members. It is all a game about $$$$$. Both sides of the gun debate have it and the NRA and Brady want it (the $$$$). The longer the 'debate' goes on the more $$ they get, I see the gun actually as the pawn in the whole thing. Neither side wants to 'win' just show that 'we are trying, send money so we can keep fighting!'
Just my opinion!
Chad

tuck0411
May 03, 2008, 03:46
Originally posted by bill3542
The proposed law in Pa will go nowhere.rural Reps and Senators know its a load of B.S.

Same here in WA. As liberal and Dem as this state is, if it doesn't go anywhere here, and it didn't this last term, it won't anywhere outside of maybe CA and MA and IL. I don't even see it happening nationally even if Hillary or Obama get elected. Another AWB is a much bigger worry. I'm going to have all the rifles on my immediate shopping list bought and paid for by January '09, along with enough ammo to go with them. Then it'll be time for hunkerin' down and waiting for 2012 when maybe people will finally see the wisdom of voting for someone like Ron Paul.

bakerjw
May 03, 2008, 06:34
I have to agree with cotter on the NRA.

That fact aside, the bill died in Tennessee committees. My state representative was very very adamant about his opposition to this type of legislation. I am not sure about our state senator though.

If you live in a state where they are trying to get this type of bill passed, then an active letter campaign is in order. It is the only way it will be defeated.

brownknees
May 03, 2008, 07:22
It was tried (& failed) in MD recently. The state.gov decided it was too expensive & the impact would be minimal.
Now it's being re-introduced.
:skull:

Flashhider
May 03, 2008, 07:41
What is alarming about this should be that fact that 20% of the states have had this type of legislation introduced. Even though it will be defeated in most, the ball is rolling down the hill and more than likely not ever be stopped. At some point the federal gov't will step into the fray and site something like the dramatic increase of school age children being shot in the streets of chicago. That, then nationalize's the issue and wahlaa we have new ammo id laws to protect the children. Kum by ya.

fastfreddy
May 03, 2008, 07:43
Evil often triumphs because evil tries harder and never sleeps. This thing will keep coming, at least as long as the sponsoring company is in business. Their very survival depends on it. Having California go along will put cash in their pockets which will extend their life expectancy and increase their ability to influence future legislation. Every win will increase their chances for additional wins.

The California legislation was a major defeat for free America.

johnny.308
May 03, 2008, 09:37
Back on March 8, the NRA-ILA Alert, warned Washignton State residents that this bill had been introduced.

johnny.308
May 03, 2008, 10:38
Currently HR3359 is in the Judiciary Committee in Washington State.

Here are the requirements of HR3359, the Bill in the Washington State Legislature.

(18) ôCoded ammunitionö means ammunition that carries a unique alphanumeric identifier that has been applied by etching onto the base of the bullet projectile and the inside of the cartridge casing and that meets the following requirements;

(a) The base of the bullet and the inside of the cartridge casing of each round in a box of ammunition are encoded with the same unique alphanumeric identifier;
(b) The unique alphanumeric identifier is engraved in such a manner that it is highly likely to permit identification after ammunition discharge and bullet impact;
(c) The outside of each box of ammunition is labeled with the name of the manufacturer and the same alphanumeric identifier used on the base of bullets contained in the box; and
(d) Ammunition contained in one ammunition box is not labeled with the same alphanumeric identifier as the ammunition contained in any other ammunition box from the same manufacturer.

(19) ôPistol ammunitionö means all ammunition principally for use in pistols, notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in other firearms, including bullets used for reloading or handloading pistol ammunition.

Just because something is insane as well as impossible at the present time doesnĺt mean it canĺt be made law as Kalifornia has shown us.

The question is, can a law that is impossible to comply with be enforced. I think the answer is yes. No markee, no importee.

tuck0411
May 03, 2008, 14:59
The WA state legislative session is over for the year and the bill went nowhere. Unless the governer calls the legislature back for a special session, they won't meet again until next January. I emailed my rep about HR 3359 a couple months ago when they were in session and he replied and said he's very much against the bill. Him being a Dem and all, I was happy to hear it.

tuck0411
May 03, 2008, 15:03
Also, unless I'm mistaken, the bill that passed in CA was not about serializing ammo. It was about banning any semi-auto handgun that didn't have the ability to "micro-stamp" cases as the gun is fired. Two different things, although both completely unreasonable. I'm sure CA probably does have an ammo serialization bill in progress, though. I don't think one has passed in any state yet. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Otis Treekiller
May 03, 2008, 15:59
They can have my ammo...one round at a time. :|

deerollman
May 03, 2008, 21:09
Originally posted by FTW2012
If they want the ammo, give it to them, one round at a time from the roof tops!
I'm sure they'll baack down

im sure theyll back over your house with an Abrams, but your point is taken.

Tak
May 03, 2008, 22:53
When is the firearms industry and ammunition industry going to unite behind the free man, and counter this kind of B.S. with the threat that if you pass it, we will no longer sell guns and ammo to any government entity?

Hard to run a police state when nobody will sell you guns and ammo.

RT
May 04, 2008, 02:20
Originally posted by Tak
When is the firearms industry and ammunition industry going to unite behind the free man, and counter this kind of B.S. with the threat that if you pass it, we will no longer sell guns and ammo to any government entity?

Hard to run a police state when nobody will sell you guns and ammo. NEVER they are chicken shit!!!~Richard---------but that is a GREAT IDEA---and only 1 firearms maker stood up to the Gov/Kali and that was berrett. sorry if i spelled his name wrong. but RON told Kali he would not fix there 50 cal. LOL good for him, he has Ball's. and the other people in the firearms industry need to follow him~R

brownknees
May 04, 2008, 07:07
Our club range will be required to fund an off duty LEO to be present during hours of operation. This person will verify by some means that the ammo has the required pedigree.
On my, I'll be really popular with that particular "gentleman".
Lemme see.

Pushing shooting glasses back up to correct position (repeatedly) with middle finger, Check.

Constantly rubbing "sociable parts" (like in baseball) prior to shooting, Check.

"Accidentally" fumbling with ammo can full of bullets while searching for membership card so it drops on his foot, while "presenting for inspection", Check.

Relieveing "itching, burning, sensations" from nether reigons with ungloved hand before handing him the "peapieren", check.

Reminding him to wear hearing protectors, immediately after firing the first round, check.

Picking a firing point :exactly 19 feet to his left, check.

Oh we're just going to be "Best Buddies":devil

deerollman
May 04, 2008, 11:29
:rofl:

deerollman
May 04, 2008, 11:33
Originally posted by Tak
When is the firearms industry and ammunition industry going to unite behind the free man, and counter this kind of B.S. with the threat that if you pass it, we will no longer sell guns and ammo to any government entity?

Hard to run a police state when nobody will sell you guns and ammo.

i dont think theyd have a hard time getting this across as a threat to national security. then theyd just roll in and run the plants (inefficiently) themselves. then it would be even easier to put an ammo ban in place. who needs legislation when your plants are "at capacity" producing for the manufactured conflict of the day.

of course, the people could take up arms and defend the plants when the powers come to town. but based on my experience here, not too many are ready to give up american idol quite yet...

John Hardin
May 04, 2008, 12:56
Originally posted by tuck0411
The WA state legislative session is over for the year and the bill went nowhere. Unless the governer calls the legislature back for a special session, they won't meet again until next January. I emailed my rep about HR 3359 a couple months ago when they were in session and he replied and said he's very much against the bill. Him being a Dem and all, I was happy to hear it.
Sadly, *my* rep (Al O'Brien) is the one who sponsored it. I hope that he was just suckered by the company sponsoring it rather than truly believing in it.

After writing him in no uncertain terms about my position on this, I now think he's annoyed with me... :)

Heat
May 04, 2008, 13:09
This type of legislation has NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to do with decreasing crime--this is about CONTROL--the STATE controlling the unwashed masses, you and I--remember Lexington & Concord!:fal: :fal: :fal: :fal: :fal: :fal:

Kyrottimus
May 04, 2008, 15:23
Originally posted by Heat
This type of legislation has NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to do with decreasing crime--this is about CONTROL--the STATE controlling the unwashed masses, you and I--remember Lexington & Concord!:fal: :fal: :fal: :fal: :fal: :fal:

[/lurker mode]

The Concord Hymn
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1837)

By the rude bridge that arched the flood,
Their flag to April's breeze unfurled;
Here once the embattled farmers stood;
And fired the shot heard round the world.

The foe long since in silence slept;
Alike the conqueror silent sleeps,
And Time the ruined bridge has swept
Down the dark stream that seaward creeps.

On this green bank, by this soft stream,
We place with joy a votive stone,
That memory may their deeds redeem,
When, like our sires, our sons are gone.

O Thou who made those heroes dare
To die, and leave their children free, --
Bid Time and Nature gently spare
The shaft we raised to them and Thee.

[lurker mode]

tuck0411
May 04, 2008, 15:52
Good post, Kyrottimus. We had best not let those farmers down, some 200+ years on.

Kyrottimus
May 05, 2008, 00:39
Originally posted by Lewis Wetzel
....
Incrementalism...the process by which one's motivations and principles are slowly whittled away because everyone around you is convinced it's all just a 'natural progression' of the way things are supposed to evolve....and you just go along to get along...

As my father always says, "Death by a thousand cuts."

I believe we're in 1,000+ territory now.


This simply has to stop. Or at least allow secession (which was never questioned before St. Abraham) so that the Socialist states can go their way and the Big-Government Conservatives can go their way, and those of us who prefer minimal government can go our own...maybe in Alaska or Wyoming...

...or Montana... :D

M2MG
May 05, 2008, 14:14
╠¤╦┘═ ╦┴┬┼

brownknees
May 05, 2008, 16:24
Originally posted by M2MG
╠¤╦┘═ ╦┴┬┼
Wiflenflarber?

Firestarter
May 05, 2008, 17:38
Well it's patented technology right?

Let's just buy the company and it's patents. :biggrin:

Fug em!

M2MG
May 05, 2008, 17:50
Originally posted by brownknees

Wiflenflarber?

I never had any respect for someone that can only spell a word one way, how's this?

╠¤╦┘═ ╦┴┬┼

M2MG