Shortning the barrel of a .308 DSA Tactical FAL - Yes / No ?

[LordVngr]

Hi Guys

I have a Older DSA Short Gas System Tactical SA58 FAL with a " NON-Fluted " 16 1/4 inch barrel and a positively POS Post-Ban muzzle break silver soldered to the barrel.

I'd really like to put a new Flash Hider on it, A Yankee Hill model or A2 style I think. I was thinking if I'm going to have to pay to put a new muzzle break on And probably Reparkerize everything I might as well cut the barrel down as far as I can go and then silver solder the new muzzle break on so it meets BATF standards.

I'm figuring only between a Inch or two. I'm Not looking for anything illegal just as short as I can go under Current BATF standards. Like, say a 14.5 inch barrel with a 2 inch muzzle break silver soldered on. Under Current BATF rules do I Have to have the break soldered on?

I realize that a 16 1/4 barrel in .308 isnt going to be a tack driver but what could I expect in a overall performance hit in going from a 16 1/4 barrel to one about 14.5 in length.

I called DSA and they were ok about doing the muzzle brake But didnt want to shorten the barrel even though thier web site advertizes it. Said something about messing up the gas system and having to enlarge the port hole.

I'm thinking considering how small amount I would cut the guy was just blowing smoke. My FAL exjects rounds fine at the wide open 7 setting so I should have a lot of room to adjust for that.

Anyway I hate the current muzzle break and want to change it But would it all be worth it or not. Seems pointless if I cant have the barrel taken down a inch or two while I'm at it.

Does anybody know of a Professional Gunsmith who could/would do work like that and Guarantee his work. Looking for a business or Professional Only.

Your Thoughts Please....
Thanks


LV

[newfalguy101]

if you go under 16" then the brake has to be permanently attached so that the overall length is at or over 16". Unless you go whole hog and SBR it :]

If DSA said they wouldnt cut the barrel because it will cause operational problems without opening the gas port, I would tend to belive them, afterall they are the guys who built it, they oughta know.


member Moses was offering barrel shortening in the marketplace a while back, might wanna drop him a line and see what he says.

I would think any gunsmith could cut the barrel and install the muzzle brake, its getting someone who understands the particulars of the FAL gas system that'll get ya.

[LordVngr]

Originally posted by newfalguy101
if you go under 16" then the brake has to be permanently attached so that the overall length is at or over 16". Unless you go whole hog and SBR it :]

If DSA said they wouldnt cut the barrel because it will cause operational problems without opening the gas port, I would tend to belive them, afterall they are the guys who built it, they oughta know.


member Moses was offering barrel shortening in the marketplace a while back, might wanna drop him a line and see what he says.

I would think any gunsmith could cut the barrel and install the muzzle brake, its getting someone who understands the particulars of the FAL gas system that'll get ya.

I would Love to SBR it and living in Florida I probably could IF I wanted to hassle with it. In what Little research I've done, getting a SBR permit would probably be just as hard to get as a Full Auto pemit. IE Next to impossible.

When you add in the cost of a OSW SBR front end from DSA for 500 and the Hassle and cost of a Tax stamp for 200 and the cost of swaping out the front ends professionally unknown. It just doesnt seem worth it.

Having a DSA OSW Fal sounds real nice but in reality It would have no Practical applications Besides close order combat. At least with a 14-16 inch barrel it can be semi-practial. And finally I dont think you would ever beable to resell a home made Or Factory SBR rifle or it would be very hard too because of the licensing requirments.

In truth, If I could just get the muzzle break swapped out for a nice flash hider at a Resonable Price and Not have to do Anything Else I would be satisfied with that. I do want to keep the DSA as original / original looking as possible, I just HATE the Assault weapon ban style muzzle break thats on there now. Makes the rifle look ugly, A yankee hill like DSA sells on their website would look Sooo much better.

But my understanding is to remove a silver soldered muzzle break your going to have to heat the barrel to get it off which means you will destroy the coloring which means you have to reparkerize the barrel and then probably the upper reciever too so it rematches everything

Since the coloring on my Older DSA rifle looks like a OD green and not the dark grey of the newer DSA's this might be a problem when it comes to reparking the barrel and reciever and matching the rest of the rifle.

Finally in looking at DSA labor prices for this type of work they want between 120 and 145 to do the work depending what they reparkerize. this doesnt included the cost of a muzzle break or shipping. By the time I'm done a muzzle break swap out thru them would be close to 200 bucks. Just doesnt seem worth that much to me for that small job.

But it would be worth it to get the barrel cut down / recrowned on top of that and I could probably still sell the gun down the road if needed. Thanks for your input...


LV

[LordVngr]

Originally posted by newfalguy101


If DSA said they wouldnt cut the barrel because it will cause operational problems without opening the gas port, I would tend to belive them, afterall they are the guys who built it, they oughta know.



See this part confuses me, And the reason I think DSA is blowing smoke is because when I first talked to the guy and told him what I had and wanted he kind of acted like I was asking how to make a full auto weapon and then went On and On about how they couldnt cut down a Fluted barrel Which made Sense IF it was a Fluted Barrel.

I let him talk and talk and When he Finally Shut Up I said, Hey guy It's NOT a fluted barrel. His responce was Ohhh, well let me go talk to the gun smith. When he came back and said no they wont cut the barrel I asked Why. He stammered for a minute and mumbeld something about the gas system.

Personnaly I think they just dont want to cut down one of there own rifles, they want to sell me a new frontend, and I dont think they Know what I have. DSA Did Make Tactical short gas rifles Without fluted barrels. Most recievers I see today are in the 30,000 number, Mine is in the 15,000 number. thats how early my rifle is.

It actually ticked me off a little. It's My Rifle, it meets ALL There Requirments for working on it And They Advertize Barrel Cutting. If there is a possible issue with the gas system they should explain it to me and then let Me, The Customer Decide. Besides, I didnt buy the rifle thru them but everything else I have and I have spent Hundreads thru them So ya I was a little put out by the conversation and will look elsewhere in the future for my FAL needs.

If I understand correctly and correct me if I'm wrong, But the shorter the barrel After the gas exhaust hole in the barrel the less gas pressure there is to push back the ejector rod correct?

If that is the case wouldnt the Correct thing to do just be to turn the gas adjuster knob from a higher number like 6-7 to a lower number like 3-4. This would close off the the escape hole some more and force more gas to the gas piston. This is my understanding of how a fal gas system works.

So when DSA talks about Opening the Port up this makes no sense to me, Unless there are Two Different Size Gas Holes. One from the barrel to the gas chamber and the other being the exhaust / adjustment port that the adjustment knob controls.

Even if this was the case, were only talking about a inch 1/2 cut. As stated my rifle ejects casings fine at the most open setting of 7. This scared me at first because the manuals say it wont eject rounds at that setting but mine does. I've since chalked it up to being a un-fired rifle with a total of about 40-80 rounds thru it.

That being said, even if the 1 1/2 cut affected it a little I should beable to compensate for it Right. Of course, I could be just talking out my arse. Please someone enlighten me on this issue.



LV

[newfalguy101]

I am a looong ways from an expert. but I will do the best I can as I understand it.

the gun needs X amount of gas pressure to operate, the pressure at the port is directly related to the amount of barrel beyond the port opening.

Cut the barrel down so the port is closer to the end of the muzzle and you drop the amount of pressure, or I guess actually you change the time/pressure curve.

Sooooo when you cut the barrel shorter than normal ( 18" (?) to 21" ) you, most of the time, will have to open the port, to allow more gas pressure.

If you cut from your 16 1/4 barrel to 14 1/2, you are losing 1 3/4 inches of barrel, barrel needed to keep the time pressure curve correct, so you open the port MORE to allow yet more gas in.

The muzzle brake, will have only a very small effect on the pressure as there is no gas seal between the ID of the brake and the bullet.

Its entirely possible that your gun might run even with the barrel cut back further, its also possible that it wont.........DSA, in all likelyhood has already opened the port from "standard" anyway just so it will run at 16 1/4 inches, and they may have opened it enough, by accident.

turn the gas adjuster knob from a higher number like 6-7 to a lower number like 3-4. This would close off the the escape hole some more and force more gas to the gas piston.

Actually the lower the number, the more OPEN the port is ( #1 is wide open, no restriction ), again, your gun might run, or it might not, the only way to know for sure is to cut the barrel and test it.

[LordVngr]

Originally posted by newfalguy101
I am a looong ways from an expert. but I will do the best I can as I understand it.

the gun needs X amount of gas pressure to operate, the pressure at the port is directly related to the amount of barrel beyond the port opening.

Cut the barrel down so the port is closer to the end of the muzzle and you drop the amount of pressure, or I guess actually you change the time/pressure curve.

Its entirely possible that your gun might run even with the barrel cut back further, its also possible that it wont.........DSA, in all likelyhood has already opened the port from "standard" anyway just so it will run at 16 1/4 inches, and they may have opened it enough, by accident.

Actually the lower the number, the more OPEN the port is ( #1 is wide open, no restriction ), again, your gun might run, or it might not, the only way to know for sure is to cut the barrel and test it.


I understand what your saying about Barrel length verses gas pressure But you lost me at the Time/Pressure Curve. :) I'm a newbie to FAL's. I also Finally understand what you / they are talking about in Respect to Opening the gas hole. Your Both talking about the port hole size from the barrel to the gas block and Not the size of the gas exhaust port opening that you control with the knob.

As you say though, It is DSA and it is There Rifle, If the gas port needs opening they should know it and know how much to open it. No, I think they just dont want to do it.

If I was going to do this I wanted DSA to do the job because I know it would get done right and for any future sale of the rifle. I dont want to hurt / ruin the resale value of the rifle.

But on to other points.


Can a silver soldered break be removed and replaced with another silver soldered break Without having to reparkerize anything.


If one cuts the barrel Right behind the old muzzle break and simple re-threads the barrel at that point you should not have to repark the barrel unless you silver solder the new one on right. If the cut is right behind the muzzle break how much could it change the gas system.


I see on the internet where people cut barrels with just a hacksaw But how hard would it be for a shade tree mechanic like me to Re-thread the barrel for a new muzzle break and do it Right.


As far as Crowning the barrel goes I was concerned about this unill I Actually Looked where the barrel and muzzle break meet. I See No Crown. Looks like it was just cut and threaded for a muzzle break. Must be because its a battle rifle.


Dam, I just want to swap out the muzzle break and do it as cheap as possible while keeping it looking Factory and doing a Good Job. If it's going to cost me 200+ for that I might as well cut the barrel to 14.5, recrown and rethread it and put a nice flash hider on it and have something Unique. Of course I'm sure there are those that think I would be Insane to do Anything like that to a DSA.


As you say in the end one can only cut it and hope for the best But yes I think the gas system would handle it. I just dont trust myself to do the job, am Very Concerned about doing it Right or Evan At All and finally I worry about resale value if I cut the barrel or even put a new flash hider on and have to reparkerize everything. Done Right though I think it would Look Sweet....

I've enclosed some pictures for you to get an idea with what I'm working with. Notice the Ugly post ban muzzle break, Non-fluted barrel, and that OD colored parkerizing. That could be more problem then just the barrel cut / muzzle break itself.


Thanks for your input and comments.


LV



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[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by LordVngr
I just want to swap out the muzzle break and do it as cheap as possible

That muzzle device is the loudest muzzle device known to man.
I agree. It needs to go.

I don't think you will do any real damage to the finish of the barrel if you do it yourself.

Use one MAPP torch or two propane torches and heat the muzzle device only.

Grab the red-hot muzzle device (should be red-hot where the threads are) with a pair of vice-grips or a pipe wrench and unscrew the thing while its still red hot.

Righty-loosey for that gun.

You might need to clean the threads a bit with a wire brush to get all the old solder off. Be sure to use a brush with a WOODEN handle. Plastic brushes will melt.

Then screw-on whatever replacement device you want.

Secure the replacement device with red loctite.
Get the Smith Vortex.

Nuthin' to it.


No reason to cut that barrel.

[powermad]

This is a really cool front end for a short gas sytem.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=229503

[LordVngr]

Originally posted by W.E.G.


That muzzle device is the loudest muzzle device known to man.
I agree. It needs to go.

I don't think you will do any real damage to the finish of the barrel if you do it yourself.

Use one MAPP torch or two propane torches and heat the muzzle device only.

Grab the red-hot muzzle device (should be red-hot where the threads are) with a pair of vice-grips or a pipe wrench and unscrew the thing while its still red hot.

Righty-loosey for that gun.

You might need to clean the threads a bit with a wire brush to get all the old solder off. Be sure to use a brush with a WOODEN handle. Plastic brushes will melt.

Then screw-on whatever replacement device you want.

Secure the replacement device with red loctite.
Get the Smith Vortex.

Nuthin' to it.


No reason to cut that barrel.


W.E.G.

Man, you make it sound Sooo Easy. :bow:

I think I would cry if I ruined the finish on the Barrel as I'm sure it cant be replaced, and I kind of like the OD green, sets off the black.

But let me ask you this. If I did take two propane tourches to it how exactly would I do that and Why two.

I'm thinking put the barrel in a vice protected by a cloth wrap. Apply Both torches at the same time to either side of the muzzle break Without directly touching the barrel with the tourch flame, get it red hot and then unscrew to the right and hope it comes off.

If it did come off ok then let the barrel cool, clean the threads and reinstall the new flash hider using locktite Red.

How tight is it going to be attached do you think and do you really think that applying that much heat wont discolor the barrel. hell, I'd be scared it would start to melt on me or I'd warp it, or mess up the threads, or. you get my point. Ruining the finish might be the least of my concerns. Still, if I Knew it would work it could be worth a try.


LV

[SIG552]

Originally posted by W.E.G.

No reason to cut that barrel.

True, but I have never understood the point in having the short gas system om a 16.35 inch barrel. I am pretty sure FN didn't do it like that. Their 50.63's had the standard handguards. Aesthetically I think all the barrel sticking out (from the gas block forward) makes it look like an after thought.

My FAL has a 11.9 inch barrel and it runs like hell. Not sure how big the port is though, I didn't do the work myself.

SIG552

[W.E.G.]

My 16.5 gun has the short gas, and runs fine with a 0.092" gas port.
The small port has its appeal.

Green finish on the DSA gun?
What is that... some sort of paint?

Two propane torches because one propane might not get it hot enough to melt the silver solder.
MAPP gas is a hotter flame.

Surely you don't think you can melt the barrel with a propane or MAPP torch.
The melting point of even the most basic steel is several hundred degrees higher than the melting point of silver solder.
As far as "warping" the steel, that barrel has already been hot enough to melt silver solder.
Does it look "warped" to you?

I don't know anything about the green finish though.
If it is paint, I think its gonna bubble if you get it hot enough to melt solder.

[LordVngr]

Originally posted by W.E.G.

Green finish on the DSA gun?
What is that... some sort of paint?




Well, you see the pictures. what color does the upper reciever and barrel look like to you. To me it looks like a OD green but maybe its just me.

I'm Sure it's not Paint, that I am sure. It's either Duracoat or it's the standard parkerizing that DSA used on the gun when they made it. I do know the coloring seems to be different then most DSA weapons I see today. I can also say what few parts I've ordered from DSA such as my rear A2 flip site are in the same coloring. Maybe it's DSA dark grey but it dont look like it to me.

Anyway, as to your torch method, I'm very tempted. I dont think it will be as easy and neat as you say But it probably wont be as hard as I think it is either. I'm sure it will fall in the middle somewhere. Probably the worst that will happen is I will mess up the finish of the barrel and have to have it reparkerized Or it might be the perfect excuse to duracoat it. I've been wanting to do that anyway.

I'm not going to do anything right away though. I wrote DSA a letter last night expressing my disappointment in being told NO they wont do something to one of their own rifles that they advertize doing on their own website so I will see what they say. If they offer to go ahead and cut the barrel to 14.5 and silver solder a new flash hider back on I will probably let them do it. If they still say no I will probably try your torch method.

What ever happens though I'm sure you guys will hear about it.



LV

[dynohunter]

Brownells sells a past to stop the heat from going up the barrel. This may protect the finish.

[dynohunter]

Whoops, I meant to say paste.

[W.E.G.]

The pic looks like somebody might have wiped the light-colored oxide finish with some sort of oil/wax that gives it a greenish cast.

The pics are too low-rez for me to say for sure, but it looks to me like there aint no paint there to burn.

Fire one up and crank on it!

[LordVngr]

Thanks guys I contacted DSA and I will be taking your advice.

To Make a Looooong Story Short I had a discussion on this issue with the GM of DSA and needless to say it didnt go to well. I originally posted the emails here but they have since been removed. There were faults on both sides.

The bottom line is DSA wont cut down a 16 1/4 inch barrel Unless your going to SBR it Or buy the Browning flash hide.

Thanks....

LV

[DesertFALrat]

LV,

After that long post I read you want DSA to build a custom upper, with untested lengths/features. While they do make NFA SBR uppers, and they obviously have a non-SBR short barrel option, you want something they simply don't make.

I wouldn't get your panties in a bunch over it.


If you want something custom, you are in the right place to make that happen.
The guys on here will steer you in the right direction.

You don't need the factory to do it.

If you really want a quality smith to do it, I suggest Adam762. He has alot of experience with custom uppers in various lengths.



Oh, and don't worry about resale. You are not allowed to sell an FAL anyway!


Good luck,


dfr

[Matt(formerly@)EntrepriseArms]

Some of those posts above were way too long to read, but I'll add my $.02

Every time you cut your barrel, you usually have to enlarge the gas port. Sometimes when we cut a barrel from 21" to 18" we don't have to enlarge it, but most times we do.

When we go to 16.5" we have to really have to open it up. If we go below that, it really doesn't work very well. It causes more problems than its worth. Now I know some people on here will talk about all the barrels they have cut down to short lengths, etc, but let me tell you that overall and from a manufacturers point of view, it is not reliable below 16"

At that point you need to go to a short gas system, which DSA has done a great job with. That is the best solution because it is already set up for the short barrel, and it works well.

So if you called us and asked us to cut your barrel down to less than 16" and attach a long muzzle brake/flash hider, we wouldn't want to do it either because we know it would end up back in our shop at some point because it wasn't working right. I know this becuase not only have we serviced rifles where the owner did just that, but have experimented with making our own short gas systems to compete with DSA.

Thats my $.02

[LordVngr]

Originally posted by Matt@Entreprisearms

At that point you need to go to a short gas system, which DSA has done a great job with. That is the best solution because it is already set up for the short barrel, and it works well.




Thanks for your 2 cents. The rifle in question is a short gas system, so If I read your post correct then IF I wanted to go to 14.5 I shouldnt have any problems. This all started cause I just wanted to change out the break because iI just dont like the look of it and dont feel I should have to pay 2 Bills to do it.

In truth I'm gratefull for the conversation with the GM Simply because He was honest & Confirmed what a POS the stock Muzzle Break is, To the point of affecting accuracy of the rifle. Now I Know it's gotta GO.

Yep, I'm gratefull But he still shouldnt have said the things he did, That was uncalled for even if I was a little pushy. I deal with pushy / dense customers everyday in my work. I certainly dont call them a Idiot or Cry Baby and would be Unemployed if I did. I guess GM's feel they can get away with that crap.


LV

[Matt(formerly@)EntrepriseArms]

Yes, if you have the short gas system already, then you should be able to go shorter and they should be able to make the necessary adjustments.

I went back and read some of the super long posts and almost spit out my coffee!

Wow! Even though I often fantasize about saying things like that to customers, I never could and keep my job!

On the flip side, I like DSA's airsoft gun, and I almost bought it!

[Matt(formerly@)EntrepriseArms]

Ok, read the rest of the thread (shame on me for skipping over the important parts like you have a short gas system :cry: ).

The reason your park is that greenish color is most likely because it is a zinc phosphate park, not the manganese phosphate that they (and we) use now. Manganese phosphate is generally thought to be superior in performance, and certainly in look that zinc. For whatever reason, zinc phosphate always has that weird greenish hue to it.

Anyway, a couple of othe observations; your rifle barrel should have been crowned, regardless if a muzzle brake is attached or not. I find it hard to believe DSA would have cut the barrel and not re-crowned it before attaching the muzzle brake. Are you sure that its not crowned?

Also, I don't know how much the muzzle brake affects accuracy by design alone. I do know when we used to silver solder muzzle brakes on way back, sometimes the gunsmith would get lazy and not thread the barrel and simply slip the brake over the barrel and silver solder it in place. This could cause it to sometimes not be indexed properly, and be out of alignment with the barrel. The bullet could impact the brake as it left the barrel, severly affecting its accuracy.

I do suggest as well that when you cut the standard 21" Fal barrel down, remember the standard Fal had a 1 in 12 twist. If you go short, you are not maximizing your twist rate that it was designed for. Interestingly enough, DSA now uses a 1 in 9 twist on their barrels. I asked them why, and they said it was a better all around twist rate for them, and I can't help but wonder if by that they meant it was good for their SBR's and standard Fals.

Last, if you have not done work like removing a silver soldered muzzle brake on your rifle before, I would caution you to seek out professional help (like you tried to). While its not super difficult, you don't want to mess up your barrel by over heating it or getting it out of whack when you try to torque it off while it is heated. Gunsmithing is not some super secret mysterious skill, but you have to think about whats on the line and the cost if you screw it up.

Thats my extra $.02

[SIG552]

Wow.

Marc Galli took the time and gave you a very good answer to your repeated questions. I found him to be on the level and correct in saying that it was a liability issue for him to cut your barrel.

He gave you a number of options for you to choose from and you responded rudely to him.

Way to go.

SIG552

P.S. Either SBR that rifle or take Galli's advice and have a BLF attached or get someone else to do the work. Stop whining.