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View Full Version : Is there any LEGAL way to "borrow" a machine gun?


brownknees
April 18, 2008, 20:03
The reason I ask was a disturbing encounter at the range today.

Another shooter had an M-16 A1, not an AR-15 but a selective fire Colt manufactured, M-16.

He kept trying to get me to "check it out" which I did NOT do because he said he had "borrowed" it:wink: :wink: from a LEO who'se department it was issued by. He was full of lots of other BS, but this got me to wondering. Is there any "exemption" for Nat. Guard (Special forces):rofl: , Fire Police, Volunteer, part time ( "Special tactics" unit),or other categories who can legally "Borrow" a department-issue M-16, & then just hand it to a shooter at a range to try out?

One reason I'm a bit suspicious is that I was sighting in a Lee Enfield, and was pretty much ignored, but as soon as I put the bolt gun away & switched to the FAL he was all over me.

diana-ar15
April 18, 2008, 20:34
IF he was on the LEO payrole and thus a certifiable LEO himself .. then YES the department could sign it out to the guy and he could legally posess it. As far as shooting the gun .. just make damn sure it is legal before you leave any prints on it .. provided it is registered and good to go .. have at it!

ActionYobbo
April 18, 2008, 20:38
if an individual can not lend to another individual unless the individual that its registered to is present with the registered item

so you cant give it to your friend and he takes it to a location you are not at but you can let your friend use it at the rnge while you watch him

A police officer who it is issued to by his/her department is able to take it to the range with permission but not share it around with civilians
thats my understanding

poof
April 19, 2008, 08:42
OK, same idea,
What if the gun belongs to a corporation?
Employee for the day?
J.P.

sf46
April 19, 2008, 09:10
I know of several ranges throughout the US where one can rent a machine gun to shoot at the range. You just can't leave the range with it.

brownknees
April 19, 2008, 20:41
I'm not sure what he really was as the B/S-o-meter was pegged at "FULL".
It was his saying he'd borrowed it from a LEO that had it from a department, now he wanted me to play. It just seemed like a long, thin, Chain Of Custody to me.
BTW I did not play, I can find way more solid MG owners if I want to do that.

Thanks for the info, it all just seemed too "iffy" to be legit.

Lee Carpentieri
April 20, 2008, 07:19
A LEO can't lend out something that is registered to a department to anybody that isn't an Leo of the same department at all. You can't lend out a form 4 registered weapon in any context what so ever to a individual. If the form 4 weapon is registered to a corporation a individual that is an officer/employee of the corporation and on the corporate books and they should have a copy of said record with them as proof when in possession of the weapon or device and have a copy of the corporate paper of said corporate employee or officer notorized as proof. Thats what is required from Batfe and you would be surprized how many LEO's don't know what a transferable weapon or device is parerwork wise if caught while traveling and pulled over or out at a place your allowed to shoot the weapon or device and have their hand on the thier gun asking what your doing. I've actually given classes to local law enforcement on just this type of scenerio and shown them what a form four looks like along with a form 3. Its funny when a cop arrest someone with a registered weapon and only to be told by Batfe to release the individual IMMEDITATLEY AND RETURN ALL SAID LEGAL POSSESSIONS AND APOLOGISE or face federal prosecution and a massive lawsuit from the individual who owns the weapon or device. Nobodys exempt from this if you think you are as an LEO in federal court.

FTW2012
April 21, 2008, 00:51
(M8) What can happen to someone who has an NFA firearm which is not registered to him? [Back]

Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself.

[49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861 and 5872]

stimpsonjcat
April 21, 2008, 10:22
I have had to burst several LEO bubbles when discussing department FA weapons. The common misconception from the LEOs is that they own that firearm. This is not the case and has caused trouble for LEOs before when folks retired and maintained control of the items.

I usually say something along the lines of "If I had an illegal machinegun, I get 10 years. If you keep that dept MG after you leave the dept, you now have an illegal and stolen machinegun...that sounds worse to me."

:D

panzer
April 21, 2008, 11:09
Originally posted by ActionYobbo


A police officer who it is issued to by his/her department is able to take it to the range with permission but not share it around with civilians
thats my understanding


Police are civilians, Just want to get that straight. The US and THEM mentality must not spread. If you are not in the military, you are a civilian. period.

ANd, you cannot borrow an NFA item. But if its his and he lets you shoot it, feel toll free.

perryturner
April 21, 2008, 21:59
Originally posted by panzer
Police are civilians, Just want to get that straight. The US and THEM mentality must not spread. If you are not in the military, you are a civilian. period. I used to feel the same. Then I looked it up at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

civilian

Main Entry: ci·vil·ian
Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1
— civilian adjective

panzer
April 21, 2008, 22:26
Seems to me that they tend to go with definition "b. outsider" more often than not. Either way, I still hold to it.

brownknees
April 22, 2008, 15:57
Just to set the record streight.
I have no proof this man was a leo.
Now I'm the first one to call 'em as I see 'em, but in this case I don't think it was a LEO related thing, just a wannabee BS artist saying whatever he thought sounded cool & "Tactical".

Tactical was his favourite word, tactically speaking in a tacrtical sort of way tactically.:sad: :rolleyes:

I have no idea where, or how he had the rifle in his posession, I don't have any way of teling if he was being truthfull, or if he was just making it up as he went along.

So why don't we save the cop/civillian thing lay here.

panzer
April 22, 2008, 17:55
Im good.

It could have been a Mall ninja with an illegal. I have to think there are a TON of rampant Auto AKS and such out there. I just can't believe all those youtube videos are post 86 sample guns some 16 year old happened to have had. Seems there is alot of uncommon/rising interest in these types of weapons since the war started. ALOT of people have no clue of the law, or worse, no fear of it. Its good to just stay away.

When I go shooting and the guy next to me looks like a blackwater guy with plates in and a crylic marked first aid kit and he is a dental assistant thats never been in the military, I first laugh until my taint hurts then I get a little worried...

FTW2012
April 23, 2008, 01:24
So tell us Browny, wud' ya' do?

gunplumber
April 23, 2008, 10:53
Originally posted by perryturner
I used to feel the same. Then I looked it up at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary

civilian

Main Entry: ci·vil·ian
Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1: a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a: one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b: outsider 1
— civilian adjective

The "police or fire" was added sometime in the 80s, as my high school dictionary doesn't have that quaint little alteration.

What does the Military refer to the polce as? CIVILIAN law enforcement.

brownknees
April 23, 2008, 16:15
I just made polite "Thats nice for you" noises & went back to what I was doing before he showed up.:sleep:

mp
May 11, 2008, 07:48
National Guard and Reserves in a Marksmanship unit can draw their FA weapon and use it on public ranges for marksmanship practice. But it has to be transported in a Mil vehicle and some other specail rules apply which I cannot think of right now.

Rifle_Guy
May 21, 2008, 18:41
"What does the Military refer to the polce as? CIVILIAN law enforcement."

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: Most of the civilian police officers I encounter really don't know what to say when I point out to them that when I was on active duty thats what we called them.

The: "Civilian Police" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Azrial
May 22, 2008, 04:28
Originally posted by Rifle_Guy
"What does the Military refer to the polce as? CIVILIAN law enforcement."

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: Most of the civilian police officers I encounter really don't know what to say when I point out to them that when I was on active duty thats what we called them.

The: "Civilian Police" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I can not imagine why they would care, or for that matter why you think that it is so funny. We are civilian police. If we were military police we would have very limited authority, except on Federal land.

Kind of like a secuirty guard...

GOVT1911
May 23, 2008, 21:39
Originally posted by Azrial

I can not imagine why they would care, or for that matter why you think that it is so funny. We are civilian police. If we were military police we would have very limited authority, except on Federal land.

Kind of like a secuirty guard...


I can't think of too many "security guards" with handgrenades and beltfed 40MM grenade launchers, outside of DOE. ;)

Skilter
May 28, 2008, 00:09
ok... first off... Situation #1 ...if he is a stranger then hell no... f off... I don't want my prints on a GD thing....

Now... Situation #2... I know a dealer who has a friend that is a state trooper. He brings shit out all the time... I shoot it no question. He is in the vicinity... It ain't borrowing... I got a witness and I ain't taking it home and storing it.

Thus... if it is situation #1 = problems.... If it is situation #2... relax... no worries dude.

YMMV and .02
agc

Bruce Allen
May 28, 2008, 07:54
Originally posted by stimpsonjcat
I have had to burst several LEO bubbles when discussing department FA weapons. The common misconception from the LEOs is that they own that firearm. This is not the case and has caused trouble for LEOs before when folks retired and maintained control of the items.

I usually say something along the lines of "If I had an illegal machinegun, I get 10 years. If you keep that dept MG after you leave the dept, you now have an illegal and stolen machinegun...that sounds worse to me."

:D

Yep.
This is entirely correct.

Been this way for years and years.

BlackWell Industries
May 28, 2008, 10:18
Originally posted by Skilter
ok... first off... Situation #1 ...if he is a stranger then hell no... f off... I don't want my prints on a GD thing....

Now... Situation #2... I know a dealer who has a friend that is a state trooper. He brings shit out all the time... I shoot it no question. He is in the vicinity... It ain't borrowing... I got a witness and I ain't taking it home and storing it.

Thus... if it is situation #1 = problems.... If it is situation #2... relax... no worries dude.

YMMV and .02
agc

You should be careful with this kind of generalization.
Situation #2 should be "well it depends" It depends on what state you are in. Not all states allow "borrowing". Example; Washington state defines "control" of an NFA weapon differently then the Federal definition.

In Washington state simply handing the NFA weapon to a non licencee is illegal.

Lesson here is know the laws of your state and all federal laws concerning firearms before touching one. :devil:
Just trying to help.
Cheers

Rifle_Guy
May 28, 2008, 10:22
"I can not imagine why they would care"

Neither can I but they do. I think it is that they are disconcerted at having it pointed out that they are actually civilians too, when they are in the habit of thinking about the rest of as as civilians and themselves as "something apart."

"or for that matter why you think that it is so funny."

I can't say for sure myself. I don't always know why things strike me that way. It probably has to do with the fact that many things that are funny are the result of either, an unexpected result, someones discomfiture or both.

"We are civilian police."

Agreed. However, the question is: If you are "civilian police" why is the term "civilian" so often used by "civilian police" to refer to those who are not sworn officers since the term describes both alike?

"If we were military police we would have very limited authority, except on Federal land.

Kind of like a security guard..."

That looks to me like a snide comment about military police. If it is not I apologize. I am just stating how it appears to me(and perhaps to others).

Actually Military police are a combat arm and their duties extend far beyond security. I believe it is the case that most "security guard" functions ( at least in the US) are contracted out so that MP's can be used for the military functions they are trained to perform.

GOVT1911
May 28, 2008, 15:42
Originally posted by Rifle_Guy


That looks to me like a snide comment about military police. If it is not I apologize. I am just stating how it appears to me(and perhaps to others).

Actually Military police are a combat arm and their duties extend far beyond security. I believe it is the case that most "security guard" functions ( at least in the US are contracted out so that MP's can be used for the military functions they are trained to perform.


I agree that it appears Azrial made a dig at MPs, but if that's the worst thing that happens today then it's been a good day.:)

Rifle_Guy is pretty correct about the current duties of an MP, at least from what I know about them.

kaiserworks
June 18, 2008, 21:12
My understanding is that before I can loan an post sample FA to civilian LE, I have to have a form 5 sign off and one more to get it back. Pls correct me if I'm wrong or if this is going overboard.

Azrial
June 18, 2008, 23:28
Originally posted by GOVT1911
I can't think of too many "security guards" with handgrenades and beltfed 40MM grenade launchers, outside of DOE. ;)
Really? Right here in CONUS Huh? I mean where we could see it to be "jealous."
I have never seen that!

I can remember the Air Force Military Police walking around for years after we got our 9mm autos carrying S&W Model 10 Revolvers with only 5 rounds of .38 Special ball or round none lead rounds. They were limited to 5 rounds because some commanding officer had ordered it for "safety," apparently not understanding the transfer bar system.

I felt sorry for them, not "jealous." But hey, whatever it takes to make you feel good about yourself!

Azrial
June 18, 2008, 23:46
Originally posted by Rifle_Guy
"What does the Military refer to the polce as? CIVILIAN law enforcement."

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: Most of the civilian police officers I encounter really don't know what to say when I point out to them that when I was on active duty thats what we called them.

The: "Civilian Police" :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Originally posted by Rifle_Guy
That looks to me like a snide comment about military police. If it is not I apologize. I am just stating how it appears to me(and perhaps to others).

Not a snide comment, the truth. Actually, it is you that appears to making fun of civilian law enforcement, with all the :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:. Isn't this true?

We were the "civilian police," I don't understand why you think that would upset anyone? :|

Frankly when I was working the street we were too busy to have time to stand around any try and make fun of other law enforcement. I know I have had several MP ride along with me in civvies, till their CO stopped it. I have never asked to do a ride along with them or know anyone that did.

I have nothing against the military police, I worked with quite a few in the past, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard and they seemed like decent young officers!But I never recall seeing them do anything that would me me jealous.

Why, what did I miss that was so cool? Tell me, I might get jealous now! :rofl:

GOVT1911
June 19, 2008, 14:20
Azrial,

I don't recall saying about anyone being "Jealous", just commenting on differences between civilian LE and MPs. As MPs, we don't do nearly the LE "road" duties that civ LE do. We do, however, still patrol the roads on post. My comment was eluding to the fact that I spend a majority of my time in third world shitholes performing combat patrols, movment to contact, convoy escorts and yes, even training forign police forces in conducting daily LE operations.

I'm not "jealous" of civ LE at all, and I don't beleive any civ LE are "jealous" of what we do. Two different jobs that CAN overlap on occasion.

If any civilian LE want to look or talk down to/about MPs as not being "Real cops", so be it. I've got nothing to prove to anyone.

Azrial
June 19, 2008, 15:23
Originally posted by GOVT1911
.....I'm not "jealous" of civ LE at all, and I don't beleive any civ LE are "jealous" of what we do. Two different jobs that CAN overlap on occasion.

If any civilian LE want to look or talk down to/about MPs as not being "Real cops", so be it. I've got nothing to prove to anyone.
My comments were directed at Rifle_Guy's comments, implying that all civilian law enforcement would somehow be upset at the fact that they were not a military force and humiliated at he and his fellow MP's pointing out and laughing at the completely obvious. I have never engaged in pissing contests of who was the "real police."

I have however trained US Army SWAT teams at state police academies here in Georgia. They trained along side regular municipal, county and state units. I have also been out to Meridian, MS where the military returned the favor.

I have stated that I have good relations with the military police and have a great deal of respect for anyone serving their country! I believe that we are all aware that the MP have their authority and capabilities severely restricted stateside. I hope that every American understands why! It certainly is not because they are not a professional outfit.

brownknees
June 19, 2008, 15:28
For crying out loud, guys!
This thread was a simple question, not an invitation to a brawl.

Go get a room if you want to continue this here or I'll trash the whole damn thread!

I've asked nicely, hinted strongly & now I'm telling ALL of you back on topic or it's toast. Yes it IS my choice.:redface:

sf46
June 19, 2008, 15:51
Originally posted by GOVT1911


If any civilian LE want to look or talk down to/about MPs as not being "Real cops", so be it. I've got nothing to prove to anyone.

Those are the same kind of fools that put down on someone by saying "You guys in (pick your branch) aren't really military compared to my branch", or "you guys are just Reserves or just National Guardsmen", so you don't count.

I've always been of the mindset that they all do their part.

Azrial
June 19, 2008, 16:34
On the subject of machine guns, It has been posted here that law enforcement that fails to turn in a NFA weapon that they bought under an LE exception would be subject to prosecution when they were no longer LE.

Yep, I got no argument with that. A lot of departments have taken advantage of naive officers that bought their own.

I own my personal M4. I have also been issued a few over the years. But this one I bought as any citizen, and I have the tax stamp to prove it.

phillip
June 23, 2008, 21:22
BK, Did the guy shoot it FA?

brownknees
June 24, 2008, 09:13
No, he was firing semi-only.

The range has no rules against having a F/A there but there is a range rule allowing only "aimed fire" so that prevents anyone going rock 'n roll as there are houses way back behind the butts.

phillip
June 24, 2008, 18:47
Not really familiar with range rules and FA etiquette, As Ive never been to or handled one. Glad it wasn't me, I probably would have shot it If the range allowed it. Lesson learned though, Ignorance (mine not yours)of the law can hurt ya. You think he was trying to set you up? Does the BATF really go around to ranges for the sole purpose of setting people like us up?

brownknees
June 24, 2008, 19:33
It's possible, but I'm more inclined to think it was just a bunch of hogwash from a wannabee.:tongue:

Most of what he said was pretty obviously stretching the truth, as I don't think part time fire police volunteers have a "SWAT team":rofl: