Armor Piercing

[creed763]

Does anyone know if you can buy 7.62 Armor Piercing ammo? I heard that you might have to take the bullet out and replace it with a 30-06 bullet and fit it in place.

[gunnut1]

Mu cousin was telling me that for some reason, 308 AP is not allowed bythe ATF. HOwever, 30.06 and 223 are. According to him. Anybody know for sure? Seems kinda dumb to disallow AP in the middle. Yea I know, I take 7 evil parts out and put in the same 7 good USA parts and everything is OK.

[hagar]

You can make them for yourself, but cannot sell or distribute .308 (or any other) armor piercing ammo.

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I don't have time for busy people

[creed763]

Is that how you make them by replacing the 7.62 bullet with a 30-06 bullet?

[HAMMER]

Guys, several months ago, I was wondering about this exact question. To get a definitive answer, I wrote a letter to BATF.

Their answer was very clear. Civilians who are not FFL dealers may possess 223 green-tip SS109 ammo which has a steel core and we may possess 30-06 black tip ammo which has a steel core. But it is illegal to manufacture 308 ammo that has a steel core. You MAY NOT legally pull AP bullets out of 30-06 ammo and then reload them into 308 cases.

Also, uninformed dealers at gun shows who sell pulled 30 cal AP bullets are breaking the law if they sell them to civilians. The bullets by themselves ( if not loaded into 30-06 cases ) are considered to be AP ammo.

You may possess loaded 30-06 AP ammo, but you may not possess pulled 30 cal AP bullets.

BTW, this BATF position exactly matches the stated regulations in the BATF green Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide ( 2000 ) shown on page 125.

[HAMMER]

ER, thanks for the welcome. I have been in NC for about 5 years and I could not be happier !!

Send me an e-mail if I can provide any other info on this or other related subjects.

[gunnut1]

Still doesn't make sense. Why 30-06 and not 308? Like I said in my previous post. I know the gobment don't make a lot of sense anyway. But this one is a doozy!

[J MOSBY]

Isn't machine gun ammo AP?

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"This is not a game, this is the future of our children and our country"

[BUFF]

Some is, some is tracer, some is just plain ol' friendly ball.

BUFF

[dick w. holliday]

you can buy AP bullets from www.patsreloading.com--also (http://www.patsreloading.com--also) has good prices on 147 gr FMJ if you buy 2000 they are 50.00per 1000

[Don Williams]

The deal with 308 AP is that it is specifically prohibited from being "manufactured" for civilian use. The Department of Defence doesn't sell assembled ammunition for surplus any more and the companies who have the surplus contracts with DOD now have to break the ammunition down for componets. They can then reassemble the stuff into ammunition. That's what Talon did a couple years ago.

With that said you can find the AP 308 projectiles if you look around. You can also
assemble AP ammunition. And if you look you can Buy it from dealers if they've got any, most don't. But you can't Manufacture AP for civilian use. This is really stupid as well as being confusing. I've assembled several thousand rounds of AP ammunition using the 163 grain projectiles for the 30-06 AP. It shoots fine.

Now does it therefore follow that my explaination and that of Hammers' contradict each other? NO. It all depends on which of the alphabit agency's people you talk to and how they are handling their meds on that day.
I kid you not. You can write them on two different days and ask the same question and those answers will contradict what the answer was on the third day when you talked to someone on the phone.And those two answers will contradict each other.

SO if you've got some good. If you don't good. But you're better off not asking questions which make their heads hurt.

[GySgt D]

Yeah, whatever. No, you can't find .308 AP cartridges, but you CAN find pulled .30 AP bullets. Even 150 grainers. My website has the load that I developed for the FAL that uses these. http://members.tripod.com/~Christian_Patriot/index.html

[GySgt D]

Yikes! They changed my URL and didn't even bother to let me know. Here is the new improved version http://christian_patriot.tripod.com/index.html

[EMDII]

FEW MG belts are made up using AP. All standard USGI tank ammunition draw is 4/1 ball/tracer mix for both the coax and the commander's .50 caliber. This applies to nearly ALL ground force use. You can order it, but your S4/G4 is going to ask some serious questions about this new DODAC (DOD Ammunition Code) you'ver requested. It's harder on barrels, too.

AP is used a lot by minigun shooters, as they are frequently killing harder targets. .50 caliber is usually 4/1 ball/tracer on the M1A1 and other ground users. We occasionally got APIT as the local dump had to recycle older ammunition. Made for an interesting day at the range!

.50 AP and it's various derivatives (even have an APHEIT!) got developed for airborne platforms, and for AA systems, originally.

http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif

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1*.....Train Like You Fight: Second Place is NOT an Option.

E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II

[J MOSBY]

Is there a site or publication avalible that has diagrams that show how the different materials are arranged in various projectiles such as ball and AP? Apparently some have steel (or some type ferrous material)inside.

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"2050 approches rapidly, could it be 2020?"

[G_FAL]

Originally posted by gunnut1:
Mu cousin was telling me that for some reason, 308 AP is not allowed bythe ATF. HOwever, 30.06 and 223 are. According to him. Anybody know for sure?


I think that the 223 is allowed because less than 50% of the core is made of the steel
penetrator ,therefore it does not qualify as
an armor piercing projectile according to
BATF's definition.The 7.62X39 and the 7.62X51
cores are constructed of more than 50% steel
or penetrating material and they are classified as having a pistol available which
can shoot them. The 30-06 is listed as a rifle only round, with no available pistol
which shoots it, therefore it is legal to own
and shoot. BTW, the 7.62X39 steel core was
not banned from civilian ownership until
Olympic (if memory serves right) Arms advertised that they were introducing an
AR-15 clone type pistol which used this round. The pistol was never introduced other
than a few prototypes, but ATF never backed
off from the ban. The surplus ammo importers
were pissed at them for this because this
banned the import of any more cheap ammo.
that

[Biggame223]

M855 and M2 (39'06) Ball are exempted because of DCM matches I believe.

Check your yellow book

Biggame223

Out

[J MOSBY]

Can someone explain what officially makes it AP as much ammo including 7.62x39 and .308 have steel in the projectile?

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The great questions of the day will not be decided be speeches and majority votes...but by blood and iron. - Bismark

[This message has been edited by J MOSBY (edited March 09, 2001).]

[Kilowatter]

A while back curiosity got the best of me, so I decided to find out just what made it armor piercing. I had a .308 AP bullet laying around so I grabbed it and headed for the garage. I clamped it in the vise, took my die grinder w/ a 3" cutoff wheel, and split it down the middle. This is what I found:


http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1024298&a=7557658&p=43190254&Sequence=0


[This message has been edited by Kilowatter (edited March 09, 2001).]

[J MOSBY]

Thanks Kilowatter, I think I'll try that on rds in question. Can you just pull the bullet out with some pliers or is that dangreous?

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"Among other evils which being unarmed brings you, it causes you to be despised. - Machiavelli

[Enquiring Minds]

You can have bullets, just can't have any that are too effective. I'm sure that's the meaning behind the Second Ammendment, yes, very sure...

[Ask4id]

Are there any books/videos that you would recommend to a novice reloader? I don't know how to use any of the parts except the scale. I got a Lee kit and it came with no instructions on how to use the damn tools! Those 147 gr. AP bullets are just sitting there taunting me.

[garand1944]

These boiler plates are hardened. VERY hardened. There are 7 different types of ammo and rifles represented by the indents/holes and I won't bore (pun intended) you with what did what except for this. The large holes were created by IMI .308 surplus at 100 yards. Now, it doesn't make a pretty spark like API when it penetrates but it will punch thru much harder and thicker metal than shown. Is someone planning to take on an Abrams or what? Why go thru hell to buy rebuilt AP when ball will stop a raging Humvee at several hundred yards.

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1558168&a=11826875&p=42260571


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Never insult another man's rifle. He may know how to use it.

[This message has been edited by garand1944 (edited March 11, 2001).]

[jon coppenbarger]

hey since they wont let us have m61 ammo try this at your own risk. sit down with a loader and powder scale. use a kinetic bullet puller and remove the tips and powder. then use your favorite 163 grain load like 4895 or 4064 powder and load up some nice 163 grain ap. then after you seat your bullits did you know that the black on the tip polishes right off. why not buy some singapore or some other ammo that the feds dont see every day. if you just look at it the case and primer are all original and after you clean up the tips only you will know the truth!!!!! I guess the feds are going to start carrying around a magnet and going threw thousands of rounds to see if you did that. they have bigger fish to fry. what the heck look the silver and the red comes off too. as far as I can see if you want a close range weapon buy a 7.62 ak47 but the fal is great for everything else. question out their for you all in the know? does a level 5 ballistic vest stop 308 ap at under say 100 or even 200 yards?

[farranger]

Yes It was Olympic that built the 7.62x39 pistol, even after being asked not to that caused the stoppage of the imported ammo. For this reason please boycott them. I wonder if they are a wholly owned subsidiary of the alphabet agency?

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freedom isn't free

[Kevin K]

Worse yet, the 7.62X39 steel core was intended to make it cheaper. It will not penetrate any better than standard ball.

[Derby FALs]

Pat's Ammo should be at the Machine Gun Shoot. Anybody here going?

[jefferyc22]

juden and FN AP
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/jefferyc22/Ammo/IMG_05381.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/jefferyc22/Ammo/IMG_05391.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/jefferyc22/Ammo/IMG_05401.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/jefferyc22/Ammo/IMG_05421.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/jefferyc22/Ammo/IMG_05431.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p289/jefferyc22/Ammo/IMG_05451.jpg

[SID325]

How hard are those on a fal barrel?

[jefferyc22]

Originally posted by SID325
How hard are those on a fal barrel?
Unless your going to shoot hundreds of AP rounds don't worry about it.
I have heard they are a bit harder on the barrel as the round does not swedge down like regular lead core.

[ftierson]

A large proportion (perhaps more than half) of the ammo shot through M1 Garand rifles during WWII was .30 CAL M2 AP and not .30 CAL M2 Ball...

Just sayin'...

Forrest

[jefferyc22]

Originally posted by ftierson
A large proportion (perhaps more than half) of the ammo shot through M1 Garand rifles during WWII was .30 CAL M2 AP and not .30 CAL M2 Ball...

Just sayin'...

Forrest
I have heard the same thing.........must not be all that nasty on the barrel

[phillip]

Was a clear answer given as to its legal to posess and shoot the .308 AP?

[Sgt_Gold]

M855 is not, and will never be, 'armor piercing'. It is also less accurate than M193 because the steel penetrator is not concentric to the axis of the projectile. AP M2 ammo was specifically exempted from the ATF regulations because it was used as match grade ammo by the military, and with that by civilian shooters in CMP events.

Originally posted by Biggame223
M855 and M2 (39'06) Ball are exempted because of DCM matches I believe.

Check your yellow book

Biggame223

Out

[ammolab]

Originally posted by phillip
Was a clear answer given as to its legal to posess and shoot the .308 AP?

Posess and Shoot, YES... make it or import it for resale, NO! Sell it if you have a FFL to anyone other than Police or Military, NO!

[jefferyc22]

Originally posted by ammolab


Posess and Shoot, YES... make it or import it for resale, NO! Sell it if you have a FFL to anyone other than Police or Military, NO!
You can reload AP to your hearts content.....no?

[jefferyc22]

Somebody have an OAL for M2AP in .308 for me?

[MakNorinco]

Originally posted by jefferyc22
Somebody have an OAL for M2AP in .308 for me?


I forget OAL but it has to be seated well below the cann. if you want it to feed in the FAL. Mine all sit about 2.6 OAL I want to say?

[jefferyc22]

Originally posted by MakNorinco



I forget OAL but it has to be seated well below the cann. if you want it to feed in the FAL. Mine all sit about 2.6 OAL I want to say?
reduce powder?

[Volksjaeger]

I have some 68 dated FN M2 AP that will pound through concrete, steel, all the usual fun stuff...and you can find the hardened steel cores from the bullets laying around or sometimes stuck in things. However, they don't look like the ones from the '7.62X51' pics above, they have a little boat tail as opposed to a flat base.

As for the pinkish copper washed 60's Chinese mild steel core 7.62X39 stuff, I've noticed that it feels hot and fast out of my AKM compared to Wolf, U-go, 90's Chinese or that green battle packed 'Belgian' (or Iranian, where ever) stuff AIM had. Has anyone here clocked the old Chinese stuff?

[jefferyc22]

Originally posted by Volksjaeger

As for the pinkish copper washed 60's Chinese mild steel core 7.62X39 stuff, I've noticed that it feels hot and fast out of my AKM compared to Wolf, U-go, 90's Chinese or that green battle packed 'Belgian' (or Iranian, where ever) stuff AIM had. Has anyone here clocked the old Chinese stuff?
Gook rounds did feel hot to me also............

[jefferyc22]

Originally posted by Volksjaeger
However, they don't look like the ones from the '7.62X51' pics above, they have a little boat tail as opposed to a flat base.


The penetrator or the whole round?

[Volksjaeger]

Actually the projectile / bullet has a flat base (and is 1 3/8 in. long) and the penetrator core has a boat-tail...(!)

[kayakpirate]

Hi guys,
I've been seeing 7.62x51 NATO armor piercing ammo on Ammunition to go, every now and then.Its listed under the military surplus heading.Its fully loaded and in govt. contract looking cardboard boxes for like $36.00 a box of 20. So for whats thats worth...there ya go.