Ammo Report w/ scoped and unscoped FALs

[TimW]

It was a warm and sunny Sunday morning…bright, not a cloud in the sky. Your typical day in Phoenix. RickD and I decided to test the accuracy of milsurp ammo in our FALs. This seemed a perfect day to do it.
The temperature started in the low 70's at about 08:00 and got to the low 90's by the end of the shooting day, around 14:00. Winds were non-existent in the morning, but started gusting around 11:30-12:00 hard enough to raise "crime scene tape" streamers to about a 45 degree angle. However, since the wind was consistently from our 6:00 o'clock position, this wasn't a concern.

The first set of tests were conducted using Rick's Argentine FAL with a 20" barrel (or is it 21"?) and a Leupold Vari-X II 2-7x33 compact scope on a DSA mount and ARS trigger job (about 4-5 pounds). The second set was from my AzExArms StG 58 built on an Imbel Gear Logo receiver, no trigger job (about 9 pounds). All shooting was done in 3 shot strings, two strings per ammo "brand" on two different targets. Shooting was done from a sandbag on top of a 50-cal ammo can under the forearm and a sandbag/handhold for the rear.

The shooting strings were shot within about 2 minutes for 3 shots, with a 25 minute break between the strings (the range is on a timer for patching/pulling targets). Only 3 rounds were loaded in the magazine at a time. TimW did all the shooting for this test.

Finally, since we have found that sometimes the dealers don't know what the ammo is they are selling, I have listed them by Headstamp and what we think it is. For example, one local Phoenix dealer is selling FNM ammo as "Spanish", when FNM is of Portuguese manufacture. If we are incorrect as to the designation, we would appreciate corrections.

Set 1 - RickD's Argentine FAL w/ Leupold 2-7x33 compact scope, ARS trigger job

Headstamp String 1 String 2
F-78-39 - Portuguese 1-3/8" n/a
HO/HD - sold as both Port and Malaysian 0-3/4 1-3/4
RG (Radway Green, UK) 2-1/2 2-1/2
FNM 80-11 - Portuguese 0-1/2 0-1/2
Cavim 91 - Venezuela 3-1/2 3


Set 2 - Tim's AzExArms StG-58, open sights, no trigger job

Headstamp
String 1 String 2
F-78-39 - Portuguese n/a n/a
HO/HD - sold as both Port and Malaysian 3-1/2 4
RG (Radway Green, UK) 3 2-1/4
FNM 80-11 - Portuguese 3-3/8 2-3/4
Cavim 91 - Venezuela 3-1/2 3-3/4

I did not record the shots RickD made with his FAL using Winchester and Federal match ammo, however they were all sub-MOA in the area of about 0-3/4". Very impresive.

There you have it. Hope this helps.

Oh, for those in Phoenix who want a chuckle, Bear Arms is selling the FNM ammo, calling it "Spanish" and charging about $4.50 per 20 rounds.... :)

TimW
Phoenix

[kotengu]

Somebody should move this to FAQ. I always thought Radway Green was the way to go, but by the looks of it, Portuguese does more than a little better (have to try it in my gun and see if it does the same). Does anybody have any velocity information on these?

Matt

[TimW]

Originally posted by kotengu:
<STRONG>Somebody should move this to FAQ. I always thought Radway Green was the way to go, but by the looks of it, Portuguese does more than a little better (have to try it in my gun and see if it does the same). Does anybody have any velocity information on these?

Matt</STRONG>

Uh, no. RickD's chrony got shot by a guy who showed up to shoot with us. Rick set it up, walked away for a moment and when he came back, it had a nice 7.62 mm crease through the electronics....otherwise, that info would have been available, too.

The reason we did this was to show the process we went through. The RG wasn't the most accurate in our guns...but that doesn't mean it won't be in yours. You need to do your own testing. Apart from the Cavim, I'd have to say that all brands performed how I'd expect them to from the unscoped gun. But with a scope and nice trigger, the Portuguese groups were astounding, to say the least.

So, there you have it.

TimW

[ May 09, 2001: Message edited by: TimW ]

[Dan's]

Tim,
the HO/HD is Singapore. They use a letter code for year of production. Can't exactly remember but I beleive H is somewhere late 80's production.
And btw I've supplied a US Marine shooting team with many different 7.62 and they came back quite surprised also with the accuracy of the Portuguese [using Remington m.700's].

[kotengu]

Alright, so the next logical question is - where's the best price on Portuguese or Singapore ammo? Does it burn clean or dirty?

Matt

[Wadman]

I've always had good results with FNM ammo. My first experience was with FNM .223 ammo in battlepacks. Very nice, consistent, shiny, and good reloadable brass. It appears their 7.62 offering maintains that standard.

I did some chrono work a couple of weekends ago. Some 1960 RG L2A2 7.62 Nato clocked 2660 fps (Pact Model 1 at 10 feet).

Some of your groups sort of debunk the theory that FALs aren't capable of 1 moa accuracy. I can't tell you how many times I've seen that posted on various sites.

[ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: Wadman ]

[TimW]

Originally posted by kotengu:
<STRONG>Alright, so the next logical question is - where's the best price on Portuguese or Singapore ammo? Does it burn clean or dirty?

Matt</STRONG>

Well, I would have said AIM Surplus, but they're out. None of the other places (KY Imports, Tennessee Guns, Miwall, Century) indicate what their Portuguese is. KY Imports wants $189/k for theirs...I can get Hirt cheaper than that from AIM. Ammoman has Port for $179/k, but doesn't indicate what it is. Perhaps I will call them....

Tim

[LarryR]

How much did the group centers vary? I've done some similar testing, and noticed a big difference in point-of-impact on various ammo. The center of some 5-shot groups was as much as 6 inches from the center of other 5-shot groups.

[JohnnyMac]

Try here, he had Singapore .308 for a really good price last time I checked.

Dan's Sporting Goods (http://www.falparts.com)

[ May 10, 2001: Message edited by: JohnnyMac ]

[TimW]

Originally posted by LarryR:
<STRONG>How much did the group centers vary? I've done some similar testing, and noticed a big difference in point-of-impact on various ammo. The center of some 5-shot groups was as much as 6 inches from the center of other 5-shot groups.</STRONG>

Point of impact was pretty consistent, especially with the scope. My unscoped FAL was less so, one because of the 9lb trigger and two, the lack of a precision sighting system.

TimW
Phoenix

[50 cal]

I've noticed on my FAL that point of contact will vary by around 1"-3" by manufacterer. I use RG in mine, have my reloads set to duplicate the RG. So I can stay pretty consistant.

[FN74]

Umm, maybe I missed it, but what distance were you conducting these tests?

Thanks :confused:

[TimW]

Originally posted by dixiejarhead:
<STRONG>Umm, maybe I missed it, but what distance were you conducting these tests?

Thanks :confused:</STRONG>

100 yards, at Ben Avery Range, for those in Arizona who know the facility.

TimW