Surplus Ammo Warning!!!

[FALPhil]

From Dean Speir:
Chris Comer went to the rifle range and was sighting in his match M1A with the new California-legal muzzle brake (1½ foot impact difference... higher!) He had it sighted in with Federal Match. He then decided to try some of his hoarded German .308 that he has shot hundreds of rounds of from this, as well as other, rifles.
First round detonated it appears instead of ignited. The gun disintegrated and probably would now almost fit in a shoe box. Chris rolled to the left as the scope went skyward, receiver split apart, barrel split open like a banana from the breach and halfway down, stock broken foward of the pistol grip (I of course left my camera home so I have no photos of the rifle yet).
He was shooting the weapon off of an ammo can holding onto the magazine. His left hand and forearm were a little bloody but he could, with pain, make a fist. All five fingers were intact. If he had been holding onto the forearm as he normally would, I think he would have had a stump left or been missing a few fingers.
The headstamp on the round reads "7.62x51" over "MS 66-59."
The casing of the offending round was found and it was split on two sides all the way down to the base (as one would slice a bagel). This seemed just a little bit too fast for just an overcharge of powder.

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/images/762d2.jpg

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..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[Wadman]

Was that round loaded with black powder or C4? That's quite a bit beyond bulged receivers and blown out magazines. When DSA performed their destruction test (on their SA58), they used a compressed charge of a very fast pistol powder. And even then, the damage wasn't nearly as extensive as the "disintegrated" M1A.

Those guys should pull a few of those rounds and see what kind of charges are in them.

[JohnnyMac]

It is quite possible that the detonation of the cartridge was caused by an under-loaded cartridge.

Last year, a member on AR15.COM posted pictures of an AR-15 that was demolished by the detonation of an under-charged cartridge. The burning characteristics of smokeless powders can be very sensitive to loading density. Whereas a fully-loaded cartridge case ignites from the rear, and burns progressively toward the case mouth, an underloaded case may have its powder ignite along the length of the cartridge all at once.

JMc

[CSAcavalry]

Phil,
There is a picture in the Sierra reloading manual of a Mod. 70 WIn (as best I remember)
in several little pieces after being loaded with a round charged with pistol powder.
Get pics of the gun for us and have the fellow (when he quits shaking http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif) pull a few
bullets and see what their loaded with.
CScav

[Noname]

This was a Springfield Inc. M1A? Sounds like a round might have been stuck in BBL. I recently blew up a M38 Carcano in 8mm Mauser as a test. Load was 56 grs of Win 231. Stock cracked in mag well area, mag well buckled, lost ejector and some of boltface, receiver ring split in 3 pieces but bolt stayed in receiver. Bullet exited BBL. There was no damage to BBL although case minus head is still in there. I bet that load developed over 250000 CUP!
Due to BBL damage on M1A it would seem to indicate a bore obstruction ( or C4 ). Also remember the CBC ammo that was blowing up rifles in the early 90's? ( loaded with solid rocket fuel??? )

[Noname]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot...DAMN!!!!! Glad to hear the shooter is OK!!! And by all means post some pictures!

[Wadman]

JohnnyMac,

I remember reading something about underloaded ammo detonating in an old issue of Guns & Ammo. It was regarding a totally blown out .38 SPL. The article said that even filling up the generous case capacity of the .38 shouldn't have caused such a catastrophic explosion. It then went on to surmise exactly what you said. The primer flash spread out over a very large surface area of powder, igniting it all at once.

[FALPhil]

I might agree, except for the split barrel. I'm wondering if maybe there was an obstruction, since typically, split barrels are caused by obstructions.

I'll post more info (and pictures if they are available) as it comes my way.

Originally posted by JohnnyMac:
It is quite possible that the detonation of the cartridge was caused by an under-loaded cartridge.



------------------
..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[ANON]

Here's my theory:
The round before the problem occured had no powder and the bullet didn't leave the barrel. When the next round was fired...Kaboom.
Was his whole magazine loaded with that type of ammo?

[Hootbro]

Originally posted by ANON:
Here's my theory:
The round before the problem occured had no powder and the bullet didn't leave the barrel. When the next round was fired...Kaboom.
Was his whole magazine loaded with that type of ammo?

Only problem I see here with this theory, would the gun have even cycled with the squib load? If the bullet had never got pass the gas port, how would the gun have even cycled, and if it did get pass the gas port, would there have been enough charge to cycle the next round?

Hootbro


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[This message has been edited by Hootbro (edited January 12, 2001).]

[M77B1]

Here's the pic of the rifle:

http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/images/762d15.jpg

[This message has been edited by M77B1 (edited January 13, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by M77B1 (edited January 15, 2001).]

[BUFF]

Ouch!

BUFF

[FALPhil]

WOW! Thats what I call a catastrophic failure!

------------------
..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[azski]

UNBELIEVABLE!!! You are one lucky son-of-a-gun.

[wedgehead30]

Heres a link to the web site with additional photos: http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-762d.html

[RLJ]

Originally posted by Phil:
From Dean Speir:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/images/762d2.jpg



That my friend is a bore obstruction plain and simple! If the round was under charged it would not have the poop to do this to the rifle.

[RLJ]

Originally posted by Phil:
From Dean Speir:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/images/762d2.jpg



I have shot under charged rounds by accident. (trusted somebodys reloads)Primer was pierced, case shoulder was colapsed, cut bolt face. Had to extract spent case manually.

[Kent]

I read the post and was wondering if a bullet could have shed a jacket? That would give a high pressure shot but the gun would have cycled.

They said the previous shot was in the group so they don't believe it was a plugged bore.

But to split a barrel like that you need some kind of odd pressure curve.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Templar]

Is it possible that he tumbled the loaded ammo, thereby changing the powder in the case into something similar to pistol powder?

I heard a bout some guy doing something similar with a M1 garand after putting surplus .30-06 in a tumbler for a couple of hours to clean the brass. Rifle powder got turned into something resembling pistol powder, much higher pressure, blew the gun up.

Just a thought.

[Wadman]

Nope, we've already covered and discussed the myth of tumbled ammo dangers. That turned out to be a firearms legend.

[K. Funk]

Some of the other boards are speculating that the barrel may have been defective. Apparently a number of experimental barrels from an un-named mfg'er got out into circulation by mistake. The only way to tell for sure would be a full blown failure analysis, which is very expensive.

krf

[EMDII]

I read the full article at another site, posted from the Garand list.

I have to re-assess my judgement; I was wrong. NO obstruction. German manufactured MilSpec. Previous round (Federal Match) grouped w/ others on paper.

Other pictures support a catastrophic and VERY fast burn resulting in incredible pressure (Proof pressures are probably 90,000 psi IIRC, and don't FAIL the barrel) impulse and subsequent failure.

Weird science, fer sure.