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View Full Version : how to register a non-serial# Shotgun as an SBS?


jaykden
March 17, 2008, 17:27
i have a jc higgins 12 gauge that i would like to do a form 1 and register as a SBS.

problem is, its old enough that it has no serial number. what can i do?

do i make one up and stamp/ engrave the reciever area with the "new" number before i fill out the form 1?

another thing, it has the "j.c. higgins" name, but also "sears" what name do i put down as original manufacturer?

any help would be greatly appreciated

partisan50
March 17, 2008, 17:55
It must be a pre- 1968 shotgun, no problem just make up a serial number, maybe your first name and year of birth, etc and put that on the Form 1 and send it in. You might want to wait on the engraving until it's approved incase of your choice of serial number is no good.

jaykden
March 17, 2008, 18:30
i figured that but just wanted another opinion

thanks for the info

dirtyrice
March 19, 2008, 05:17
Weird was this just common with cheaper guns or old shotguns or what? I have a colt from the 20's and it still has a serial number.

jaykden
March 19, 2008, 11:36
i filled out the form 1 yesterday and got abit nervous so i called the ATF to be on the safe side.

they confirmed what i thought and was said to just make up my own serial #

the first lady i talked to didn't know so she transfered me to someone in tech branch. that guy ended up speaking to an examiner as he didn't know for sure.



i've seen old guns with serial #s but so far i have had 2 old shotguns w/o

it wasn't required back before '68

farmer2010
March 20, 2008, 20:08
alot of old shot guns had know # some old rifles had none to, but watch out some one could of ground #s off on never guns, the cops have acid that brings the #s back up, buddie of mine was married to the police chiefs daughter got a harley bike with no case#s they layed that acid to it found out it was hot, lucky to say my friend got his money back

55bird
March 20, 2008, 20:35
Remington made 22LR that had none.Pump Rifles in late fifties or early sixties.

jaykden
March 20, 2008, 21:04
Originally posted by farmer2010
alot of old shot guns had know # some old rifles had none to, but watch out some one could of ground #s off on never guns, the cops have acid that brings the #s back up, buddie of mine was married to the police chiefs daughter got a harley bike with no case#s they layed that acid to it found out it was hot, lucky to say my friend got his money back

the shotty in question was built in the fifties.

after extensive web search, i have found that none of the shotguns like mine had serial #s.

newfalguy101
March 20, 2008, 21:06
a couple weeks ago I provided transfer services for a fundraising auction for a local school trap team, and I logged more than one older Winchester .22 that had no serial numbers, which frankly surprised me!!

I suspect these were low-end models when they were built.




jaykden,

I didnt see the second part of your question answered, J.C.Higgins was the manufacturer.

farmer2010
March 20, 2008, 22:33
hell i got a 1912 JC WITH NO #S and few double barrels with dumascus steel with no #s a win singal shot red lettter 20 no #s rem bolt 22 guns

farmer2010
March 22, 2008, 18:35
ALL PRE 1950'S GUNS

partisan50
March 23, 2008, 10:25
Part of the Gun Control Act of 1968 was the mandatory serial numbering of firearms. So if you have a firearm without a serial number it's pre 1968.

Most of the non-serial numbered guns are usually generic rifles and shotguns sold through Sears and other outlets and the reason for the lack of a serial number was for a reduction in paperwork. If the firearms had serial numbers, each had to be listed on an invoice separately. If the firearm had no serial number it could be listed as one box of ten .22 cal rifles, etc.

S. Fisher
March 24, 2008, 16:00
I've got an old J.C Higgins model 101.1 side by side made for Sear Roebuck & Co. w/ no serial #. They are neat old guns. :)

gunplumber
March 26, 2008, 11:24
and to make it even more interesting, on a SBS you can put your markings on the barrel, leaving the receiver still without a #.

ActionYobbo
March 29, 2008, 22:49
not to question the guru gunplumber but the atf from 1 notes state the makers name, town &state as well as serial number must be engraved onto the receiver of the firearm being manufactured.
there is no such thing as a registered barrel

not trying to start an arguement here .

gunplumber
March 29, 2008, 23:32
on a machinegun it must be on the receiver. On an SBR or SBS it can be on the barrel. I don't know why, it makes no sense to me, which is why I threw it in - just to muddy the waters a bit.

Section 7.4.2 of the NFA handbook covers "additional markings".

This is MY interpretation of the difference between "markings" and "additional markings".

The firearm itself - as an NFA or Title I firearm, must be marked with the manufacturer name, city, state (or recognised abreviation) and serial number (post 1968) on the FRAME or RECEIVER.

When converting a Title I firearm to a Title II firearm, such as an SBR or SBS, the "manufacturer" (the one doing the conversion) may use the original markings on the form 2 or Form 1 to identify the firearm, but then must make ADDITIONAL markings on the Frame, Receiver OR BARREL as the NFA manufacturer.

So if I have a Colt AR-15 # 12435, I enter that information from the receiver onto the form 1 (form 2 in my case) as the firearm identification. I then need to stamp it "ARS SUPRISE AZ" as the NFA manufacturer - this marking I can put on the frame, receiver or BARREL.

As your gun does not have an original serial number, I think it would be easiest to assign it a serial number and mark that on the receiver, but as to the letter of the law, your name and city and state could be marked on the barrel instead.

Don't ask me why barrels are included as an option for additional markings but not for original markings, as it makes no sense to me.

K1196A
April 17, 2008, 10:56
recently i sent the tech branch a letter on the SBR engraving of my FN PS90 about whether i could engrave my mfg markings on the plastic shell in the same manner FN did (FN puts the serial on the receiver, but all other markings are on the plastic). they allowed me to engrave the plastic stock like FN and they referenced that the SBR markings could normally be on the BARREL or the RECEIVER. I was suprised as well as I had always thought the receiver had to be marked. in any event, the letter supports mark's interpretation.

farmer2010
April 17, 2008, 19:32
I GOT A 1881 ivory johnson 12 GA SINGAL shot full choke NICkel PLATED IT HAS ONE # UNDER THE fore arm, I need some one to make a rear stock for it one day , My brother tried long ago to make A REAR STOCK in school, But mest it up twice on 3inch 1ft wide 100 YEAR OLD black walnut ,due to the school would not let him have the lower recever IN THE BUILDING , He was going of the broke old stock LAST stock got the center bolt off line OTHER THAN THAT IT TURNED OUT NICE

gunplumber
April 17, 2008, 21:10
a friend of mine, Bob Hissirich, is a guildmaster stock maker. He makes mockups out of pine with bondo and Marinetex and all kinds of other patches to get the shape he wants before duplicating it in a blank that costs more than a I make in a month.

The stock screw, as I have learned from helping others to make FAL stocks, is one of the harest things to get straight, and really should be the first thing. Everything else indexes off it.

indy_Muaddib
May 25, 2008, 21:08
Originally posted by newfalguy101
I didnt see the second part of your question answered, J.C.Higgins was the manufacturer.

JC Higgins (Sears) was the label, High Standard was the manufacturer.

very well made guns, better than modern Remingtons or Mossbergs.

newfalguy101
May 26, 2008, 07:29
Originally posted by indy_Muaddib


JC Higgins (Sears) was the label, High Standard was the manufacturer.

very well made guns, better than modern Remingtons or Mossbergs.


For the purpose of registration, JC Higgins is the manufacturer

You are correct in as much as JC Higgins is a label, the original manufacturer however was a multitude of companies, Mossberg, High Standard, Marlin, etc....

The only way to determine who actually built the gun is by using a store-brand cross reference such as located in the back of the Blue Book.


As an aside, they are beginning to catch the eye of collectors as a less expensive way into a "name" gun, which is really weird as these guns were normally built on the cheap to hit a specific price point.

Still, a gun made on the cheap 50 years ago is heads and shoulders above one made on the cheap today

indy_Muaddib
May 26, 2008, 18:26
Originally posted by newfalguy101

Still, a gun made on the cheap 50 years ago is heads and shoulders above one made on the cheap today

i collect JC Higgins shotguns, got a nice little pile of them now.

quality wise they are leagues beyond anything Remington or mosberg have put out in the last 20 years except the wingmaster line and the 590/590A1