.308 or 7.62x51?

[Frontsight!]

I will begin reloading for my M1A soon. I will probably be buying an Entreprise STG-58 (FAL) soon. TECHNICALLY, the M1A shoots .308 Win and the STG shoots 7.62x51. BUT, (I'm sure you can see my delimma brewing) I only want to load one type of case, if possible. I plan on going to the Tulsa gun show, and I will hopefully find a good price on reloadable .308 cartridges or cases. Should I just buy a butt load of .308 and use it in both (hoping that the adjustable gas system in the STG can handle the .308) or should I keep the ammo for each rifle seperate, reloaded seperately, and everything, forever?
Here's what I'd like to do: Buy a butt load (bigger than a s*** load) of .308 cartridges, and as I shoot 'em (in both rifles?) start reloading them. I'll then reload them seperately, downloading the STG ammo a bit. I will be loading the M1A ammo for top accuracy. I am not as concerned with accuracy in the STG, but I'm sure I'll eventually get around to it.

I know this is confusing, but if you understand it, please give your 2 cents. Thanks.

[Timber Wolf]

Yep, I understand, sort of. My .02 is reload for the M1A as accuracy is your goal. By Radway Green or other cheap Mil surplus 7.62X51 that the FAL likes and shoot that for fun. The Mil surplus could also be used in the M1A in a pinch.

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First rule of gunfighting, "Have a gun!".
Timber Wolf, N.R.A. Endowment Member

[TOM SIZEMORE]

Frontsite if you havent read about the post called .. "PROBLUMS WITH MY STG58" then read it.I forgot who posted it but it is in general dis, anyways as i was saying i got screwed but enterputz im not flamming them some people have had no prblums with there enterputz stg-58 but i did, and cant get my money back http://www.fnfal.com/forums/frown.gif my barrel was pitted and i tryied to reslove it to no avial.Anyways like i said before buyer BEWARE and the best of luck to ya some people like i have said before have had GOOD produtcs form enterprize i just dont want some one to get f*&ked like me c ya. TOM http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif

[Frontsight 2]

Timber Wolf: That's an interesting point. How cheaply can the surplus 7.62x51 be had? I have seen reloadable IMI .308 at 1K for $168. That's a good price, but I would still reload at that price. Can the surplus 7.62 be had significantly cheaper than that? If not, I'd still want to reload.

Is it unwise to fire standard power .308 in an STG-58?


Tom Sizemore: Did you order through Inter Ordinance? Several folks have rave reviews about their customer service.

[EMDII]

It's important to understand there are minor differences between 7.62x51mm and .308 Win. This difference exists in chamber dimensions and cartridge volume and properties.

That said, nearly all FAL clones get headspaced using .308 gauges!

http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif

So, beware when you reload milspec brass, as the chambers are generally smaller. This means you approach peak pressures more quickly.

In addition, MilSpec 7.62x51mm chamber pressures are about 50,000 cup. Commercial .308 Win loads are allowed to go up to 58,000 cup. So, when using .308 Win, watch your brass for primer flow, head rings, or other indications of incipient pressure/headspace problems.

http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif

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1*.....Train Like You Fight: Second Place is NOT an Option.

E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II

[Frontsight!]

Are IMI .308 reloadable cases considered "mil spec"? I boght quite a bit for my M1A loading.

[TOM SIZEMORE]

Frontsite , no i orderd though enterprise and they said that they would replace my barrel at no cost but i will have to pay for shipping http://www.fnfal.com/forums/frown.gif.I did not want a new barrel on it because when i asked the guy about it being pitted he said "all of there barrles are pitted they are surplus".So i wanted my money back and they would not give it to me i said i was a memeber of the fal boards and that did nothing to chage there minds ohh well there loss not mine.Like i said i would not buy an enetrpize unless i see one and looked it over, ya they will fix it for ya but its nice to pay $900 and not have to send it back 2 days later.Good luck frontsite. TOM http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif

[Frontsight!]

You got the standard model? It's $750 through IO. I have ordered other rifles unseen before, and when I recieved it I had the potion of sending it back (unfired) if I was unhappy with it. Is this not the case with IO?

[FALPhil]

What are the differences between .308 Winchester and 7.62 x 51 mm NATO?

The cartridge cases themselves are virtually identical in exterior dimensions. NATO-spec cases have substantially thicker cases and are thus able to withstand stretching better when fired in loose chambered military weapons (done for reliability purposes). NATO-spec cases can be identified by a mark in the headstamp ("cross in circle" mark). The chamber dimension specifications are where the true differences become apparant.

The headspacing requirements for the 7.62 x 51 mm NATO chamber is much more generous than that of the SAAMI commercial (.308 Winchester) specifications. The chart below reveals the differences.

Gauge:
GO - 308 Win (SAAMI) 1.630 +.002
NO-GO - 308 Win (SAAMI) 1.6355 +.0005
Field - 1.638

GO - 7.62 MM NATO 1.634
NO-GO - 7.62 MM NATO 1.6405 +.0005
Field - 1.6455


Because the minimum military chamber is only 0.002 inches shorter than the SAAMI maximum chamber, problems can occur when commercial .308 ammunition is fired in military specification chambers. Since commercial ammunition is generally dimensioned to fit in a minimum sized chamber, the thinner commercial brass can be stretched to the failure point when fired in maximum sized military chambers. In addition, military chambers may also be cut on the "generous" size diameter-wise to allow for functioning with dirty chambers. The converse is true when attempting to use military ammo in a commercial gun; military ammo may fail to chamber properly in very tight SAAMI spec chambers.

What does this mean for FAL owners? It means that if you plan to shoot commercial ammo in your FAL, you should headspace it accordingly. If you plan to shoot military ammunition in you FAL, you should headspace it for military ammunition. If you plan to shoot both, you may want to consider headspacing a tight military chamber, and recheck the headspacing after a period of break-in. Reloaders can adjust their dies to coincide with the dimensions of a particular chamber.

There is some confusion about pressures between the two cartridges. This is largely because SAAMI used to set the standard by the copper crusher method. Nowadays, with the advent of cheap piezoelectric transducers, we can just about use any unit of measure we want. So what are the maximum chamber pressures? For the US 7.62x51 the max pressure is 50,000 psi and for US commercial .308 Win, the max chamber pressure is 62,000 psi.

What happens when a catastrophic case failure occurs in an FAL? I happen to have had one on October 7, 2000, at the Charlie Elliot WMA range. This was my first time shooting an FAL, one that I had assembled. The headspacing on the rifle was within SAAMI spec, so what happened? Turns out that being a reloader, I had reloaded a batch of NATO-spec brass one time too many (about 18 times). When the case head let go, the bullet traveled down the barrel, the bolt was forced completely back, and a rather large flame came out the ejection port. The case head was ripped completely off and remained under the extractor. It passed completely over the ejector and the bolt/carrier assembly remained in the rear position, as the case head would not pass back over the ejector. The strength of the system was apparent in that there was no damage to the gun or the shooter. Do not take this as an endorsement of sloppy reloading practices (the round would have been OK in my tight-chambered bolt gun for which it was loaded), but rest assured that FN designed a gun that can handle case failure. However, I would not want to do this on a regular basis. From now on, I will not go more than 2 reloading cycles through the FAL. After that, the cases get "retired" to bolt action work only.


Originally posted by Frontsight 2:
Is it unwise to fire standard power .308 in an STG-58?

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..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[This message has been edited by Phil (edited October 12, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Phil (edited October 12, 2000).]

[recce]

Phil,
First off, I am just starting to get together a reloading kit so have no practice at it at all.
I also collect Lee Enfields which also have generous sized chambers. I am going to a reloading board for the .303 to gather info before I actually start reloading, and the owner talks about only neck sizing your cases to prolong the reloading life, (of course you still have to check the case to ensure that it is not stretched too much).
Would this work with 7.62 as well, or is it better to just full size the case and re-use them less? TIA
Recce

[TimW]

If you look in the Ammunition section of this board about 10-20 days in the past, you'll see a thread about "neck sizing" where I posted the same question (I have a .303 Enfield, too).

Bottom line, semi-autos may not work as well as a bolt gun in fully chambering neck-only sized, especially since the Enfield's bolt lugs are interrupted continuous thred (meaning, they are like threads on a screw and really cam the bolt shut...).

Consensus was that necksizing for FAL's was not likely the best way, but one could do it to test the process. I decided that full-length sizing of the FAL ammo was the best thing and never experimentd.

However, given that .303 brass can get really worked over by firing and FL-resizing, I neck size that...also, it only goes into one gun, and one gun only, my No 4Mk I.

Hope this helps,
Tim
Phoenix

Originally posted by recce:
Phil,
First off, I am just starting to get together a reloading kit so have no practice at it at all.
I also collect Lee Enfields which also have generous sized chambers. I am going to a reloading board for the .303 to gather info before I actually start reloading, and the owner talks about only neck sizing your cases to prolong the reloading life, (of course you still have to check the case to ensure that it is not stretched too much).
Would this work with 7.62 as well, or is it better to just full size the case and re-use them less? TIA
Recce

[DJ]

Front sight,
One thing that you may or may not be aware of.......You have to be careful with your M1A and keep your pressure levels to that of US GI ammo. Also if you are going to reload for your M1A you have to watch what you use for powder. If you get too much port pressure you will bend your op rod. When I was shooting Service Rifle competition, everybody's favorite powder was(still is) IMR4895. Don't use a slow powder like IMR4350. You'll get great velocity, But excessive port pressure and a bent op rod. Hope this helps,
Don

[recce]

Thanks Tim.

[Frontsight 2]

Good info, DJ! Can the 4895 be used with the 7.62 loads as well? ( and I would assume after all this info, it could be used at almost the same loads?

---Sidebar question. I already have 400 rds of .308 IMI. I plan on buying ammo at the Tulsa gun show. should I buy more IMI and keep with what I have, or should I get something else? Again, I'm going for long-range accuracy out of the M1A.

[DJ]

Frontsite,
Yes sir, you can use 4895 with 7.62 brass, but remember that military brass is thicker than commercial resulting in less internal capacity of the case so you must back off on your powder charge. I shot my M1 Garand in competition. If I remember right, I used 46.5 gr of 4895 in LC match cases and 168gr Sierra MatchKing bullets. On time I loaded up 100 rounds using IMR4350, not knowing about port pressures. I mentioned it to my friend Dave Manley who owned Brookville Gun Shop(Dave shot a Luger 9mm in bullseye competition) and who has forgotten more about reloading than I'll ever know. Needless to say I spent the rest of the day tearing down all 100 of those rounds and redoing them with 4859. (Those were 30-06 rounds BTW)
As far as the IMI ammo, I'm not really familiar with it. I've shot a little bit of it out of my l1a1, but never out of an M1A.
I have run across some Lake City Match at gun shows, but it's usually pretty pricey.
Sorry for the long post.Hope I helped
Don

[This message has been edited by DJ (edited October 13, 2000).]

[Yo Quiero FAL]

The "standard" M1A match load is 41.5 gr of IMR4895 in LC brass w/ Sierra 168 gr HPBT.

[FALPhil]

Yo Q,

I shoot moly coated stuff now. I boosted the charge to 42.5 - I use Federal match cases. If I was using Lake City, I'd probably drop back down to 41.5.

recce,

Neck sizing is great under one condition: you fire the cases out of the same bolt or single shot every time.

Autoloader, pumps and levers are a different story. For match guns, you can probably adjust your full-length resizer so that you get reliability. Before a match, I remove the bolt/carrier assembly and test fit each round in the chamber by hand. For rapid fire blasting, I use small-base, full-length resizers (available from most reloading suppliers). Using the SB dies gives you as much reliability as possible. The drawback is that it works your brass more, shortening the life, probably by 30-50%. I haven't done a test; that's just a guess.

You will have to play around with your sizing die to get it just right for a particular rifle. Most people will tell you that neck sizing produces better accuracy. That is only true if you do a lot of other things, however, like determining the optimum OAL for your particular ammo/rifle combination, and neck turning. One thing - buy the absolute best reloading equipment you can afford if you are after accuracy. Scrimping on equipment will allow you to produce average ammo. Really good equipment will help you produce outstanding ammo. I tend to lean towards Hornady and Redding/Saeco equipment myself.

Originally posted by Yo Quiero FAL:
The "standard" M1A match load is 41.5 gr of IMR4895 in LC brass w/ Sierra 168 gr HPBT.



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..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[recce]

Thanks Phil. I am trying to buy quality so it is taking a bit longer to get the stuff together as spare cash comes in.
I guess I will leave the neck sizing for the .303. Thanks again for the help.

[K5OIT]

Not to nitpick Phil but his statement about take your chioce of pressures has got a slight descrepancy in it. He quotes that 7.62 is 50,000 psi . This is true, but it was measured by copper crusher which was listed as psi at that particular time. It is now predominately called psi c.u.p. or just c.u.p. The 62,000 psi listed is for commercial loadings is measured by piezoelectric transducer and is listed as p.s.i. only. The exact same loading is 52,000 psi c.u.p. The variation I see is that the commercial loading is permitted 2,000 psi c.u.p more pressure. What that translates too in transducer psi I don't know as I don't have access to that info. I would guess that it is probably in the neighborhood of 65,000 psi. if the measurement system is reasonably linear.
As far as the figures and measurement systems I have quoted, they are straight out of the ANSI 1992 manual for commercial loadings.
I think Phil did an excellent explanation but I also think that c.u.p. and p.s.i. need to be explained to reduce the confusion and on going arguments.
OK I will duck now.
Have a good weekend.

[FALPhil]

You are, of course, correct. Maybe if I can find the time, I will research the relationship between the CUP conversion and the piezo measurements.

Thanks!


Originally posted by K5OIT:
Not to nitpick Phil...<snip>



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..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm