Subcaliber: sabots/accelerators

[Tenderfoot]

Has anyone recorded any info (results) from this combo? .22cal round inserted in a .308 case. I hear 4000 fps. plus! But can you hit the broadside of a barn with this setup?
I'm too cheap to buy all the equipment to try it myself and find out it's a dud.
TF

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]

[Terick]

Somebody used to factory load those...I think it was Remington...30-30 and 30-06 for sure. Expensive, but good stuff. Not too practical tho for the price. I made up a few of my own for the 30-06 a few years ago and still have a good size bag of the sabots left. They work ok, but there are a few catches that make them more of a "neat trick" than a practical round. You need to get the sabot and the bullet sitting just so or the accuracy falls off at any distance. Also I believe the rate of twist in most 30 cal rifles is not designed to handle a bitty chunk of plastic screaming thru at high speed. It messes things up pretty bad and some hp bullets can actually self destruct from the high spin rate. Then there's the autoloader issue...I never got one to function in an autoloader tho I admit I didn't try all that hard...they just wouldn't cycle. They are neat for working up a close range varmint load etc. for a bolt gun, but more work than I like for anything else.

[Oregon-Jet]

Originally posted by Tenderfoot:
<STRONG>Has anyone recorded any info (results) from this combo? .22cal round inserted in a .308 case. I hear 4000 fps. plus! But can you hit the broadside of a barn with this setup?
I'm too cheap to buy all the equipment to try it myself and find out it's a dud.
TF</STRONG>

Tf try this link and see what you think, all the loads you need. http://www.eabco.com/Reports/report04.html

[Tenderfoot]

GREAT thanks guys!
That website sure was neat, I printed out the
loading manual pages for study.

TF

[stargazer]

Please note in the loading report it states that Sabots are NOT TO BE USED IN RIFLES WITH MUZZLE BRAKES. This makes sense too, so please heed the warning as nearly all of us have some sort of brake on our .308's. :eek:

[Tenderfoot]

Thanks for the note stargazer.
I have one of the few "naked" barrels.
Good info though anyway.
TF

[Clark]

I shot some today.
50 gr .224"
Out of a VZ-24 with a fluted stainless Adams and Bennet [Midway] barrel. Chambered with the Pacific reamer [standard .308]

I used a case full of IMR4895 [~50 gr]and CCI200 primers.

I can tell you one thing, it kicks allot less.

Accuracy? Well, I'm cursed.
Nothing shot well today.

[ricochet]

I still have a few boxes of the Remington factory sabots(Accelerators), and have shot many thru the years. While the Rem 700 is capable of 1/2" with good handloads, the same rifle will shoot the Accelerators not so good (3-4 MOA) at 100 yards, never tested them beyond that. For dispatching game at short ranges, they'd do great. For accuracy, they leave a lot to be desired. I have a friend with several hundred 52-55gr .308 sabots if anyone needs some (sabot and bullets only, not loaded).
And, the recoil is almost non-existant.

[ByronF]

Sound like a loser all around. For long ranges where the 4000 fps might come in handy, you can't hit a thing. At ranges where the poor accuracy isn't a handicap, who needs 4000 fps? Might as well ding them with some 150gr HPs. I'm going to experiment with some lightweight 30 cal bullets so I can take the FAL out for some woodchucks.

Byron

P.S. I wonder if the problem is with the twist rate or consistent release from the sabot? Perhaps the bullet runout is sloppy loaded in the sabot. Maybe a 6mm version with 85 or 100gr bullets would work better.

[BUFF]

I got a bunch of the Remington load in about 1982 with an H&K 91 in a trade. I never shot any in the -91 but shot most of them up in a Remington 700 Varmint I had at the time.

I got pretty good accuray from them. The rifle would shot MOA with most good accuracy handloads or the Federal Gold Match, and it would shoot the Accelerators into 1"-1-1/2" groups at 10 yards from a rest. Occasionally, say one in every 10-12 rounds, there would be a flyer about 3-8" away from the group. I attributed it to the sabot coming off unevenly.

I also tried some in my standard Rem 700 ADL in .30-06. The .30-06 was/is a 1-1/4" rifle with a few handloads on good days, but the factory Accelerator in .30-06 only shot 3" groups at best.

I think it is the rifling twist rate.

I have a few boxes of the .308 load left. I have a Remington Model 7 Scout and am going to try them in it one of these days.

[Tenderfoot]

I've got plenty of .308 brass and some Hornady 60gr. Vmax bullets, can I buy the sabots seperate? And install my own bullets?
I'm thinking about a "varmint type" upper for the AR, those 24" bull barrels look impressive and the ads say "one hole at 100 yds." that remains to be seen. Had to trade in all my bolt guns due to arthritis and am in love with the evil black rifles now. :D
TF

[ricochet]

I remember seeing an article (several years ago) about using smaller caliber bullets (.243,274,,284,etc) in a .308 using typing paper as the sabot. The article gave load info and suggestions on how much and how heavy paper should be used. I cannot remember which magazine this was printed in (maybe American Rifleman?) but as I remember, they had usefull information for different calibers. This was several years back, and I do not know if paper would accelerate the wear to the barrel. There are still .22 sabots around, but the barrel twist dictates loading much slower than the potential to get really good accuracy.

[Jeffrey K Hampshire]

Ricochet,

The artical in question was by Ross seyfried in Guns & Ammo, 1980's. I have it somewhere.

The basic premis was to make standard bullets fit oddball barrels such as some of the British numbers, the main use was for making .308 bullets fit the bore of a .318 bore 8x57 mauser. I tried this in a model 88 octagon barreled sporter rifle with a .318 bore and it worked out most well. I have to say though that paper patching is not the easiest thing to do especially for a novice and is a bolt gun only scenario.

[Racer]

.30 CAL Sabots

From SGN, 7/16/2001

J & D Components, Orem, UT
(801) 225-7007

<< www.jdcomponents.com (http://www.jdcomponents.com) >>

FWIW. I tried some of these a few years back. I found that I had better accuracy with IMI boat tail bullets than Winchester flat base bullets. It seemed that I also had a harder time seating the FB bullets straight in the sabot.

Carl :D

[banzai]

The problem, as noted, is multifold. I'll try to elaborate as best I can to the best of my understanding. This is wisdom passed down to me from my boss, who has worked on weapons development with the US Navy SEAL teams for over 30 years, and has been personally involved in providing special weapons and training facilities.

Firstly, any sabot must be PERFECTLY concentric, and the petals of all the same weight/thickness. This promotes centering the sub-caliber bullet and uniform shedding of the sabot once it leaves the muzzle. If even one petal sticks just the slightest nano-second then it will tip the bullet; causing uncontrolled pitch and yaw in flight (destabilization). Muzzle devices, being of a larger diameter bore than the host barrel, promote early "Petaling" and uneven shedding. They may also cause the sabot to shed inside the muzzle device, causing a bore obstruction!! :eek:

Secondly, the sub-caliber bullet MUST be seated PERFECTLY centered in the sabot both laterally and longitudinally (sp?), otherwise, once the bullet/sabot starts down the bore, the bullet will pitch and yaw uncontrollably about a center that is not inherently stable. This causes the "3-8 inch flyer" phenomenon. It is more prevalent at higher velocities, thus the faster the bullet goes, the tighter the load tolerances become for repeatable accuracy.

Thirdly, the use of a plastic sabot, even one that is thermally rated above the pressure/temperature levels of modern smokeless powder loads lends itself to some interesting internal ballistic concerns. The material must not flex, lest it release from the shell at different pressure levels. It must not erode on the bore, lest it slow down in the bore over time, or build up plastic residue in the rifling like lead will. Using too hard a material causes bore erosion and makes petaling too difficult and unpredictable.

Lastly, due to the rifling of the host barrel being tuned to the weight/length of the host bullets, within industry standard ranges, the sub-caliber bullet weight selection narrows QUICKLY, thus limiting flexibility.

All in all, there is little a sabot round can do, at full rifle velocities, that a purpose built bullet can't do easier, cheaper, and more tolerant of load/powder/thermal/rifle condition/etc tolerances and changes.

If there were a viable market, they would populate the shelves of our local ammo shops. They ain't there!!! Besides, a 4000fps bullet would penetrate and/or do serious damage to the armor plate at the back of any indoor range that I've ever seen. That's why they limit it to 4000fps or slower for rifle rounds in most of 'em, as well as not allowing steel core bullets (which are available for load in .30 caliber guns from WWII .30-'06 rounds/production). Interestingly enough, it's the .17 caliber guns that are most often noted for doing over 4000fps, but throat erosion is MASSIVE in such hot rounds.

Sabots do, however, work well in slow twist muzzle loaders with pistol bullets, where velocities, bullet lengths, pressure levels and thermal loads, and ranges (typically under 150 yds) are all tolerant of these factors.
It should be noted that the average difference in bore/bullet in a ML is .077 (.44 (.423) bullet in a .50 bore), unlike the .084 difference in the .224/.308 combo. The real difference is in velocity. Even stacking the odds against you, a good muzzleloader will group sub caliber rounds to 2MOA or better, which is good enough for fieldwork on deer sized game inside 200yds.

Oh, sabots also work well on purpose built weapons systems like the Abrams tank, which has a gun designed around the Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (tank killer) round.

Hope that this helps and didn't bore you too much. If anyone can point out anything that I missed, please help us to understand it more. :D

Tom

[Derby FALs]

Hey Tenderfoot. I have some sabots for sale on auction arms. If you want to try some I'll sell them 100 for $9.50 shipped. As far as accuracy goes, I'v gotten sub 3" MOA with a Steyr SSG 69. Just barely though. I want to try some different powder-primer combos before I say that's the best I can do.
55 gr bT ballistic tip on top of 46 gr IMR-4064 with CCI primer in new RP brass.

I believe there was a market for them as we used to use them on coyotes and big jacks in the Rockies. Didn't the loaded ammo get banned like AP 308?

[ July 24, 2001: Message edited by: Derby FALs ]

[Tenderfoot]

WOW!
Lookie what I started!
Thanks Banzai,for the textbook reference I enjoyed reading the info. One question on the side was the tank barrel the smooth bore type?
Hi Derby FALs!
You are the start of this whole discussion! :)
I was looking at your items on the auction site and followed the reference links and got to thinking and well, you know what that leads to! :eek:
I got your email the other day and you have a very impressive list of goodies!
I'm in the learning mode right now (read that BROKE) when George W. releases my $$$ I'll be in the buying mode. :D
By the way is the BIG FAL book worth $100?
Thanks for all the replies guys!
TF

[banzai]

PS: Alternate load data can be found for .30 cal rounds in the latest Accurate Arms powder load manual.

Tom
:D

[Derby FALs]

Hey Tenderfoot,
I can't get your email to work. Drop me a line and I'll see about letting you shoot some I have loaded. If you can pick them up we'd save the postage.

[ricochet]

I remember seeing a gunsnammo article that discussed using .308 bullets in larger caliber bores, but I also remember sitting in my gunsmith's shop discussing the ramifications of anyone publishing the article he had produced with the loading and suggestions of how to use a smaller caliber bullet in a larger bore. Could you imagine what Janet Reno would have thought if she saw how easy someone could use a maybe .277 bullet in a maybe .308 bore, and no rifling being cut into the projectile? My gunsmith's statement was, this would not make Janet happy. I do believe there was reference to the Russian's use of 7MM bullets in their 8mm rifles and having somewhat good results. If you had the need to use a slightly smaller bullet, with close to the same weight, you may get good results. I would imagine that small variables would complicate things. But if necessary, small groups might not be required. I would think that his statement was also accurate, if projectiles had no rifling implanted, big brother wouldn't approve.
While tackdriving accuracy depends on twist/weight/velocity and conditions, somethings are a tradeoff. Actually my 3-4 MOA results would be sufficient when the explosive results are weighed in (in some cases). The facts are, nothing comes without trades. Sabots have their uses, but you generally give up accuracy. As a friend says, speed kills...

[Derby FALs]

Just for laughs. Check out sabot...*** HANDGUN CONTROL, INC. DICTIONARY ***
AMAZING FIREPOWER - a) holding more than two shots; b) makes a loud 'boom' which could hurt the ears of a child.

ARMOR-PIERCING AMMO - Any round capable of penetrating 5 layers of aluminum foil, or a heavy sweater. Must be banned.

ASNER, Edward - An actor world renowned for his brilliant portrayal of a major metropolitan newspaper editor; truthful, hand- some, virile yet kindly and honest spokesman whose veracity is unassailable when he speaks of the need for gun control.

BILL OF RIGHTS - A piece of parchment written by dead white males, that is either worthless or sacred, depending on whether the portion under consideration agrees with us.

BRADY, SARAH - Saintly daughter of FBI agent, who grew up with guns, then decided they are wrong for the rest of us. Similarity of philosophy to that of Adolf Hitler has been exaggerated.

CANNON, HOWITZER, ELEPHANT GUN - Any weapon having "amazing firepower" (above), eg, any firearm more powerful than a .22 blank starters Pistol. Must be banned.

CIVILIZATION - Those parts of the world where guns are outlawed (like New York City, or Northern Ireland).

COP-KILLER BULLET - Either a hard, non-expanding bullet, or a soft, expanding bullet, depending on which isn't banned yet.

CSGV / HCI - Socially responsible organizations of honest, concerned, truthful citizens of the highest integrity who only want to keep Saturday Night Specials out of the hands of criminals.

CRIMINAL - Anyone possessing a gun, if we get our way...

CULTURE OF GUNS - Those Americans still capable of original or independent thought. Must be reeducated to understand that we, not they, know what's best for them. (We haven't ruled out "camps"...)

DEADLY ASSAULT RIFLE - Any open-sighted firearm that will fire two or more consecutive rounds without major inconvenience to the user. Must be banned.

DEADLY SNIPER WEAPON - Any weapon capable of accepting an optical sighting device. Must be banned.

DEADLY "STEALTH" WEAPON - Any gun with a quiet or muffled report, e.g. air guns. Must be banned.

DEADLY ASSAULT PISTOL - Aww, hell, even we don't know what this is.

Better ban 'em all, just to be sure...

GUN - Any oblong metallic object capable of harming a child, even if he drops it on his foot. Must be banned IMMEDIATELY.

HESTON, Charlton - An obscure, little-known actor who once had a minor role in a movie about the Bible; has been known to espouse the pro-gun propaganda of the NRA. Probably a student of Soviet disinformation techniques.

HUNTERS - Sadistic uncivilized cretins who wantonly massacre morally superior peace-loving woodland creatures with assault rifles and elephant guns, then leave the carcasses to rot while they (the hunters) drink beer. Many seem to worship severed heads. Must be taxed to clean up their contribution to urban violence (the current $75 Million in fees stupidly goes to husband more animals for them to shoot).

JUSTIFIABLE OUTPOURING OF RAGE BY VICTIMS OF 12 YEARS OF ECONOMIC VIOLENCE - Riot.

LEAD - Toxic substance used to make bullets that kill children ... (what, they're not buying that? ... well, how about ...) - Toxic substance that contaminates drinking water when mistakenly used in pipe solder (yeah, that's the ticket!). Must be taxed out of existence to pay for "cleanup".

LIES - Anything the National Rifle Association says.

LOBBYIST - 1) An HCI representative who tells the truth to Congress about gun control. 2) An NRA representative who lies to the Congress about gun control.

MACHINE GUN - (old) Any firearm capable of firing more than one round without having to ram powder, patch, and ball down the barrel. (current) Any gun containing parts made with machines.

MERCENARY - Anyone who owns an assault rifle.

NATIONAL RIFLE ASSN. - An organization made up of ultra right-wing redneck, beer-swilling, roadsign-shooting bumkins, who believe everyone should be forced to own a machine gun loaded with cop-killer bullets, and skinheads should each own two.

POLITE SOCIETY - Hate-filled "code-word" for racist, sexist, gay-bashing slaughterhouse that would result if unwashed masses were not restrained by big government, with us in charge.

POLLS - 1) A random sampling of good & decent people that proves a majority want gun control. 2) A biased sampling of NRA members that NRA uses to claim people don't want gun control.

RANGE - Place where homicidal maniacs are encouraged by the NRA to practice killing women and children.

RELOADING - The black art of manufacturing cop-killer bullets clandestinely by the dark of night in one's basement. Probably involves witchcraft.

SAFE STORAGE LAWS - It's 3 am, do you know where your guns are? We do, and just to make sure, we're going to come in and look around. Smart off, and you're under arrest. Resist, and we'll take your house.

SABOT - Bullet which only kills police. Somehow it knows.

SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL - Any weapon affordable to working people. Won't sleep until these are banned.

SCHUMER, CHARLES - may already be a wiener. (see Opportunists, shameless).

SEETHING CAULDRON OF HOMICIDAL RAGE - holder of concealed carry permit.

SEMI-AUTO - Weapon capable of pumping bullet after bullet into your daughter's dead body. The NRA wants everyone to have one.

SPORTSMAN - Anyone who doesn't use a firearm in recreational or outdoor activity.

STATISTICS - 1) A series of numbers that prove our point. 2) A series of numbers the NRA lies about, which proves our point.

THROWING OFF THE SHACKLES OF ENSLAVEMENT - Armed Robbery.

TOOLS OF SICK PARA-MILITARY FANTASY - Paint guns, starters pistols, camo gear, combat boots, etc. Must all be banned.

TRUTH - Anything Handgun Control, Inc. says (see "Pravda"). Call us, we'll tell you what to think. Or better yet, keep your mouth shut and just send more money.

TWELVE YEARS OF REAGAN-BUSH - (a) Why I did it; (b) Why it's not my fault.

WAITING PERIOD - Will either break the back of crime, or be completely insufficient and ineffective, depending on the date of the HCI press release relative to passage of the Brady Act.

[Tenderfoot]

Hi again Derby FALs!
My email should be working (I get a notice when someone replies to this thread). That was a pretty sad dictionary! I didn't notice any reference to "gutless slime" but then they must have not wanted to toot their own horn. I do fancy being called a MERCENARY though. Maybe Wal-Mart should have a "Merc. section" HMMM! :D
Okay on trying some sabots I can probably find you in Louisville, with the help of Mapquest, as I don't get to the big city often.
TF

[Tenderfoot]

Hey guys!
Here the sabot round that should do the trick!
I want one!
Give'm a SLAP!
http://www.gunnery.net/warwagon/50bmg.htm
:eek:
TF

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: Tenderfoot ]

[Derby FALs]

Send an email and I'll give you directions. Let me know where you are coming from.