DAG MilSurp: chrono'd some today

[LAFAL]

Ran some of the Century DAG German .308 through my Chrony today. Average velocity was 2815fps. Didn't figure out the foot#s cause I've forgotten the equation off the top of my head. But thought you'd like to know. Fired through my STG-58 crackho- gas setting on 4.

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]

[EMDII]

Muzzle energy (KE) is 1/2 [(Mass)x(Velocity^2)].

How far away were your screens? US MilSpec is measured 78 feet from the muzzle. Why 78'? I haven't a clue.

2815 fps (858 m/s) is well w/i the spec (2750 +/- 10%) (838 m/s) of the NATO/STANAG requirements.

Good report!
;)

[SodaPop]

Where did you get DAG ammo from? I never hear much about it but it sounds hotter than SA or Hirtenburger.

[ricochet]

good info, glad to hear this. Bought a few cans from www.centuryarms.com (http://www.centuryarms.com) and it worked pretty well for me. It didn't goup quite as well for me, but from your rifle, results may be different. Seemed to be pretty clean from my first exposure. I'd buy more, and the cans are kinda different.
Good to know the velocity is this good. My gas settings were right with my Hirtenberger on 2 rifles.

[CZ]

DAG ammo has a very thin jacket that will fragment very easy and disrupt tissue very easy! Some people prefer this ammo for a SHTF senario. Overall it's good ammo.

CZ

[EMDII]

Originally posted by CZ:
<STRONG>DAG ammo has a very thin jacket that will fragment very easy and disrupt tissue very easy! Some people prefer this ammo for a SHTF senario. Overall it's good ammo.

CZ</STRONG>

Also, the cannelure is apparently a contributor to breakup following impact. Fackler reported this is a study to which I don't have the link.

Anyone?

[cadillac]

DAG in 250 rd cans is also available (min order 1000 rds?) from Dixie Ammo Dump at http://www.armthepopulace.com OR call them at 770-307-0422 and talk to Cliff. Real nice guy. Special deal for files members. AND, while you've got him on the phone, ASK HIM TO ADVERTISE ON THE FILES!!!

[TideWater 41009]

Others may well disagree, but I would not consider a tendency for thin jacketed FMJ bullets to break apart upon impact to be a desireable attribute, but a liability. One great advantage of good FMJ ammo is its ability to penetrate. I want my FMJ bullets to be constructed as stoutly as possible.

If the goal were to to cause maximum damage to living tissue, it is hard to beat commercial soft point hunting bullets.

Refinishing Guy

[Zed Stewart]

The only thing I will say on this point is:
Shoot some animate targets with premium hunting ammo then try some surplus FMJ ammo. You will be suprised at the results. The spitzer bullets tend to be more accurate, however.

I use nothing but FMJ ammo on everything these days, unless I need some extra precision then I load some match bullets.

[Master Blaster]

Refinishing Guy,
The 7.62 x 51mm is notorious for breaking up in soft tissue, irrespective of design. The Sierra Match King is especially prone to break up after impact. I believe that the bullet begins to yaw and tumble in as little as 6 to 9 inches of penetration. This is primarily due to hydrostatic upset and it's influence on the bullet. The point being, terminal effect on living tissue is considerably different than that acheived on targets of inorganic materials. In closing, the break-up of a FMJ bullet is often a very desirable characteristic when engaging living targets. If a kill is not acheived then the target is most likely completely incapacitated from the resulting kinetic energy transfer.
Regards,
Jim

[ByronF]

I don't know why you guys are using tissues for targets anyhow. Regular old paper targets aren't that much heavier, and they don't turn to mush in the rain.

Hmmm. Have been a few occasions were a roll of soft tissues in my range bag would have come in handy...
:p

[TideWater 41009]

Originally posted by Master Blaster:
<STRONG>Refinishing Guy,
The 7.62 x 51mm is notorious for breaking up in soft tissue, irrespective of design. The Sierra Match King is especially prone to break up after impact. I believe that the bullet begins to yaw and tumble in as little as 6 to 9 inches of penetration. This is primarily due to hydrostatic upset and it's influence on the bullet. The point being, terminal effect on living tissue is considerably different than that acheived on targets of inorganic materials. In closing, the break-up of a FMJ bullet is often a very desirable characteristic when engaging living targets. If a kill is not acheived then the target is most likely completely incapacitated from the resulting kinetic energy transfer.
Regards,
Jim</STRONG>

Sierra has repeatedly advised hunters NOT to use their Match King bullets for hunting, specifically for the very reason that they perform much like FMJ ammo on game. They pass through the animal doing only minimal tissue damage, resulting in a slow, inhumane death or a cripple. If the bullets reliably broke up somehow and killed even more effectively than soft point hunting bullets, I would think that there would be recommendations coming from all corners to start using target type and FMJ bullets for big game hunting, especially when using a .30 caliber rifle. To the contrary, and to the best of my knowledge, big game hunting with FMJ bullets is illegal in most, if not all, 50 states (I could be wrong there). There is a reason for this.

In my own testing (not very scientific) 7.62 FMJ will defect less and penetrate deeper through wood, glass and steel barriers than soft point hunting ammo. I can also testify that Sierra and Hornady 150 grain soft point hunting bullets fired from a .308 or .30-06 rifle drop deer-sized game animals as though they were struck by lightning, and expand perfectly and reliably when the shots are placed properly.

If an FMJ bullet does not start to yaw or tumble until after 6 or 9 inches (or more), that is going to be too late to use the bullet's full kinetic energy; it will pass through and there will be little or no "hydrostatic upset". And if the FMJ bullets don't break up until even later, then that attribute can be ignored.

Or so it seems to me.

Refinishing Guy

[Master Blaster]

Refinish Guy,
Didn't say it fragmented. I said it broke up. Usually the bullet will break in half as it tumbles.

Byron,
I only use the ones that just won't absorb anymore. I haven't found many other uses for em so I figure, What the Hell. I bout as well have some fun with the damn things instead of throwing them away. :D

Regards,
Jim

[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: Master Blaster ]

[sixplusone]

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: sixplusone ]

[nvcdl]

I bought a thousdand of the delinked DAG.
I got a chance to shoot some last weekend.
Some rounds definetly seemed to need the port closed more then others to cycle my FAL.
I had to crank the post down from my RG

I was just plinking but I think the accuracy
didn't seem quite as good either. Still pretty cheap blasting ammo.

[Scott Jimenez]

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

this is the article EMDII (Ted) was referring to above.

required reading before one can speak about the performance of military FMJ rounds. ;-p [excepting Zed Stewart, who gets to carry a rifle and shoot critters for a living. man i am green with envy.]

scott out

[rschimmelbusch]

78' is ~about~ 25m (24 actually). Mebbe that's why?
--
R

[EMDII]

23.7744 meters to be exact. Why? Who knows?

[Blag]

78' is also 26 yards. Does the distance go back to the days when they used ballistic pendulums? Maybe it's 25 yards plus 1 yard of swing for the pendulum. Maybe??

[ctj]

I'm kind of dumb to this...why would a non NATO case be a plus? :confused: Is everyone insinuating that this would be good hunting ammo???

I have a thin jacketed FMJ round I use to use in my .45 until, I shot a concrete block at about 25 feet and had the bullet shatter against the block. Doing very little damage to the block!!!

Please explain is you feel compelled. Thanks and Best WIshes

[EMDII]

I don't think anyone has impled a non-NATO (sic) case (jacket) would be a plus. FWIW, the DAG is built to NATo spec. some gets contracted to the military, some to offshore agencies. It has the odd cannelure and thin jacket reported. Fackler's report descrbes its affects in ballistic gelatin designed to simulate human torso targets, not lower order mammals. these mammals require a much harder CNS hit to disable them immediately, as opposed to puny humans.

I STRONGLY recommend against using MilSpec rounds for hunting, and any 'Match' ammunition w/ HP or HPBT. To do so is an act of outright cruelty. These rounds are designed to perform aerodynamically (exterior ballistics), NOT terminally at the target. Their construction is too light to penetrate reliably and they are NOT designed to expand like hunting ammunition. Their manufacturers nearly always say 'not for hunting use' or words to that effect.

FWIW, the US Army has ruled that the use of the special purpose counter-sniper ammunition is NOT a violation of 'laws of land warfare' or the Hague Conventions (did I get that right?). Don't be confused: these are NOT expanding rounds, only HP. One characteristic does not guarantee the performance of the other.

[ctj]

Thanks a lot. My Mistake I must have misinterpreted the following"

I use nothing but FMJ ammo on everything these days, unless I need some extra precision then I load some match bullets.

Semi to bright annealed cases not NATO (a plus)


Thanks again

[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: ctj ]

[EMDII]

Yah, not NATO means only that the contract did not fulfill a PO from a NATO-spec order. All bets off after that!

[aclarion]

Purchased a thousand rounds of the DAG to put through my new m1A and my new L1A1. It was the worst ammo I have ever bought! the bullets were seperating, dented etc.. They would not feed correctly in my M1A (However, they did fine in the L1A1!) Sent them back and am waiting on my credit to purchase some PMP or Portuguese. A guy at the range lent me some of his PMP and they worked fine. It taught me one lesson. If the SHTF I am grabbing my L1A1 or AK! Can't worry if the ammo will work or not.

[sixplusone]

[ September 04, 2001: Message edited by: sixplusone ]

[LAFAL]

my ammo was the 250rds loose in the skinny green can. None have misfired, none have been bent, missing bullets, etc. May need to stay away from the delinked stuff. I'm satisfied with it for plinking and practice but keep back 1000 rds of FN for my stash.