Barrels: break-in?

[Falcon]

I have read a few articles on the subject in general.Are there established standards or is it just hype?

[W.E.G.]

It is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME on a 3 moa rifle.

The number of good barrels ruined by unnecessary cleaning is truly remarkable. The most frequently observed characteristic of a good barrel gone bad is a wallowed-out muzzle. Cleaning rods do this, not bullets.

Just shoot the damn thing, and clean it when it is dirty.

Gale McMillan aptly observed, "If barrel break-in did any good, you could buy barrels already broken in."

I never broke-in my Krieger barrel on my AR15. It has now had around 5000 rounds of moly-coated ammo through it, and it has <u>never</u> had a bore brush through. Patches only. I pull a few patches through it about every 200-400 rounds.

From the looks of this 20-shot group fired at 100 yards last summer, I "ruined" it by not cleaining it more. The x-ring is 3/4" diameter.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1329602&a=9886675&p=40905430&Sequence=0

[Frontsight!]

IMHO, it's a total waste of time on ANY barrel. Gale McMillan (referenced in Gary's post as well) basically insinuated that some sly barrel makers came up with the break-in idea in order to sell more barrels. Read this: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60102


Enjoy.

[Dano]

FrontSight - Great Thread!

Barrel Breakin is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME with ANY barrel. As Gale McMillan points out, it usually does more harm than good.

[jc]

A few years ago, I bought a M1A "loaded" and asked SA about barrel break in. They told me to follow any procedure I wanted to (was that wishy washy or what!).

I then email Clint (renounded expert builder of M14 style rifles) at Fulton Armory http://www.fulton-armory.com/ and he told me no break in is required, even for the NM barrel. He said there was no benefit from doing the fire once/clean 10 times etc. Personally, I don't see how this would promote a smoother barrel. But, who know. If it gives you piece of mind to follow a break in go ahead and do it.

jc

[Falcon]

Thanks for the responses, I had read some info from Shilen, Armalite and others and had a hard time understanding how it would be beneficial. Thanks for the link Frontsite!

[This message has been edited by Falcon (edited March 16, 2001).]

[Fallschirmjager]

From what I have read, the reason for 'barrel break in' is that the minute burrs left by the machining of the barrel are removed (polished) when each round is fired. The subsequent cleaning removes any loose burrs from the lands and grooves of the barrel as a result of the round passing through. This process is suppose to help prevent a buildup of metal that would pit the bbl. or otherwise damage the surface. This pitting or damage was microscopic, so what the hey. One technique awhile back was what was called 'fire polishing' where a couple rounds coated with an extremely fine polishing compound was fired through the barrel. This is suppose to be the 'final polish' to maximize the smoothness of the surface of the bbl. Interesting concept. It is pretty much a situation of personal choice, just as moly coating the bullets you fire through a weapon is a personal choice. The question I have yet to answer for myself is, "Why moly coat bullets that are fired through a weapon?" I figure that if it was of any benefit, then the military would have been doing it all along. Heck they have our tax money to play with, so cost to them probably would be no object. Don't ya just love 'Uncle Sam'?

[W.E.G.]

I'll just post this on the question of the benefit of moly.

It makes the barrel a LOT easier to clean.

The moly prevents (or significantly reduces)the accumulation of all forms of fouling (metal and powder). 400 rounds of copper-jacketed bullets, and I'd expect a helluva lotta copper in the barrel. With top-quality barrels, and moly-coated bullets, I sometimes find NO copper fouling. Zero. Nada.

Now, I'll confess that my AR15 barrel has many, many rounds through it. And it is now starting to show some copper on the patches when I clean it. But, only a teeny bit.

Does moly improve accuracy?
I doubt it.

Does moly keep MR. CLEANING ROD out of your match barrel?
Yes.

Is Mr. Cleaning Rod an enemy of your barrel?
You better believe it.

[This message has been edited by gary.jeter (edited April 03, 2001).]

[Upside Down @ 100 MPH]

Falcon, I believe in cleaning the powder residue AND jacket material after every round for 10 shots or so. On the barrels I've broken in, more jacket material was "grabbed" on the first few shots than usual, indicating some roughness somewhere in the bore. It's not good to keep layering that stuff up. The amount of copper is evident from the color of the patches (blue)when using a good copper solvent such as Sweets.

Yes, it's true what gary.jeter says about being able to damage a barrel from cleaning. But in my opinion that's more from "improper" cleaning technique. You should use plastic coated rods and a rod guide and clean from the breach. Never pull a dirty patch back through the barrel and if you use a brush, use a bronze one. And try your best not to let the cleaning rod bend while in the bore. Keep the rod straight.

If you want some more cleaning opinions, check out the forums at www.benchrest.com. (http://www.benchrest.com.)

Lot's of good info on this subject there.

Greg

[W.E.G.]

I love that old saw, "Never pull a dirty patch back through the bore." The only real wisdom in that is the reality of what happens when you try to do that, and the patch and jag and rod get <u>stuck,</u> in the bore. I mean seriously stuck. You hammer on the end of the rod. The handle splits. You hammer on what's left of the rod. The rod bends. Y'all did know I'm also the adjunct dean of the Wile E. Coyote School of Gun Cleaning (WECSGunC)?

OK, so we never pull patches back through the bore for whatever reason. But, we stick with the old saw on brushing: "One stroke for every round fired." I <u>know</u> nobody is pushing the brush through the bore, then unscrewing the brush, retracting the rod, screwing the brush back on, push throught the bore again, repeat ad infinitum. So, if it is not OK to pull patches back through the bore, how come it is OK to do exactly that with a brush. I don't get it.

Anyhow, if we use "proper technique" we'll never bugger a barrel. I'm a master of proper technique. Let's see. Get up at 0500. Drive to Quantico for 0700 muster. Shoot and hump for eight hours in temps reaching the the 90's. My eyelids are sunburned. Use non-moly bullets. Drive home. Unpack gear. Pushing 1700 now. Try to ignore spots as they appear before my eyes. Commence to clean rifle. Patches go in just one way. One stroke with the brush for each round fired. Careful now. Brush sticks in rod guide. Try to dislodge brush from rod guide. Bristles puncture latex glove and flesh beneath. Finally rip rod guide off brush. Fish new brush out of cleaning kit. Install on rod. Realize that I'll bugger the brush if I push it through the rod guide. Unscrew brush. Run rod through bore guide. Screw brush back onto rod. Puncture another latex glove with the bristles. Commence again to stroking. 3 strokes. New brush hangs in the bore guide. Repeat preceding steps. Yeah pretty soon I've got this look on my face like I've been huffing tri-chlor for a half hour. Tounge hanging out. Dehydrated to the max. Pupils dilated big time. Yeah, I'm being REAL CAREFUL now. Pull rod out two inches too far. Ram it back into chamber caddywampus. Bend the brush. Try to straighten it. Kinda crooked. Ram it in anyway. You get the picture. If you are a real hard charger, you get to do it again the next day. Every weekend. All summer.

[This message has been edited by gary.jeter (edited March 16, 2001).]

[Upside Down @ 100 MPH]

Gary, I'm sorry if I offended you in my disagreement of barrel cleaning and break in.

Greg

[FALPhil]

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager:
From what I have read, the reason for 'barrel break in' is that the minute burrs left by the machining of the barrel are removed (polished) when each round is fired. The subsequent cleaning removes any loose burrs from the lands and grooves of the barrel as a result of the round passing through.
This sounds like urban legend. First of all, the only time that this will occur is on cut-rifled barrels. There are no burrs on button-rifled, edm-rifled or hammer-forged barrels. Secondly, if you ever watched a barrel maker cut rifling, you'll see that the metal comes off in "chips" or strings of "chips". Between passes, the barrel maker will clean the barrel and do a final cleaning prior to visual inspection. Any irregularities in the grooves or lands will not be loose and are much harder than lead or gilding material used on bullets.
This process is suppose to help prevent a buildup of metal that would pit the bbl. or otherwise damage the surface. This pitting or damage was microscopic, so what the hey.
You are referring to bi-metallic galvanic action, the erosion of ferrous metals caused by being in contact with non-ferrous metals and moisture, causing an electrical current (basically the same process as EDM on a micro scale). If you have ever looked thru a bore scope on a barrel that's had a few rounds through it, you will see a lot of bullet metal impact plated on the grooves and lands. The only way I know to get most of it off is reverse electroplating, like with the Outers Foul Out.

One technique awhile back was what was called 'fire polishing' where a couple rounds coated with an extremely fine polishing compound was fired through the barrel. This is suppose to be the 'final polish' to maximize the smoothness of the surface of the bbl. Interesting concept.
Actually, it is more commonly called "fire lapping" and it works as advertised, if done correctly. You don't want to try this with Clover valve lapping compound. This kind of lapping does have a price. It accellerates throat erosion to a degree, depending on how its performed. For most appications, it is negligible.

It is pretty much a situation of personal choice, just as moly coating the bullets you fire through a weapon is a personal choice. The question I have yet to answer for myself is, "Why moly coat bullets that are fired through a weapon?" I figure that if it was of any benefit, then the military would have been doing it all along. Heck they have our tax money to play with, so cost to them probably would be no object. Don't ya just love 'Uncle Sam'?
Man! If you had that kind of faith in Jesus Christ, God would use you to convert millions! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif For us realists (who also have military service, BTW), we would say, "Hogwash!", or some equivalent expletive. Remember, your infantry equipment was manufactured by the low bidder.

The benefit that moly coating has is that it allows faster velocity at equivalent pressures. At the same velocity, there is less pressure. Again, nothing is free. To get equivalent pressure, you have to use more powder.

Our very own Gary Jeter has published extensive research on this subject on the VA State Rifle Team website.



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..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[mattja]

I followed the Krieger method when breaking-in my Kriegerized AR15. According to him, the break-in process is for the benefit of the throat, not the bore. In any case, I used the short scrubbing technique with wrap-around jags and by the time I was finished, virtually no copper was being deposited in the bore. The patches no longer turn blue (unlike my Colt). And yes, I do unscrew the jag at the muzzle and carefully retract the rod back through the barrel and out of the rod guide. Of course, I'm not so anal with my plinkers.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Upside Down @ 100 MPH:
Gary, I'm sorry if I offended you in my disagreement of barrel cleaning and break in.

Greg

offended?

not at all.

I just love telling barrel-cleaning stories.

My favorite sight is the guys at the M1 clinics when they try to "clean" the M1's after a day on the range. Most of 'em are exhausted, and don't really have a clue about how to clean an M1. To make matters worse, there are three or four cleaners per rifle. If they are lucky they draw a rod with a worn out brush on it. At least there is a chance in hell they will actually get the rod through the bore at least one pass. The others are trying to jam rods with big 'ol jags and thick 'ol patches soaked in some ancient solvent or paint remover. Several soon get the big jag stuck in the bore. Then it does take all four of em to get the rod out of the barrel.

Talk about 47 monkeys trying to hump a basketball.

[mattja]

I had a problem once using the M14 chamber brush on my M1A. I followed the instructions, closing the bolt on the brush and then ratcheting the guy around a couple of times. When I locked the bolt back and tried to pull out the brush, the sucker was stuck! I used the palm-up method to pull it out, where you use your thumb to flex the rod a little, which should spring the brush out of the chamber. No go. After about 1/2 hour I finally got the sucker out, but it was a major pain.

Of course, I had wrapped a patch around the brush so maybe it was too tight to begin with. Opps!

[Fallschirmjager]

Dang! Learn something new every day. The point I was making was that the aforementioned information was what I had read, and is what is passed around. Not that I particularly had faith in one methodology or another. Or lack thereof.

[Farmer from Hell]

So whats the big hang up on brushes? I havent sent as many rounds down range as some of you guys so maybe I'm stupid. If the bristles are made out of a softer metal then the barrel I cant see how it would hurt the barrel. Enlighten me.....

FfH

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He who has the biggest gun makes the rules

http://assaultweb.net/ubb/emoticons/091.gif

[Frontsight!]

Farmer, water is softer than stone, yet the Grand Canyon exists.

[Chupacabra]

Originally posted by Frontsight!:
Farmer, water is softer than stone, yet the Grand Canyon exists.

DUDE--that is sooooo Zen!

Unless you have a super-duper ultra moly coated, cryogenically treated megamatch rifle, don't worry about break in.
Me? I just shoot the damn thing & clean it with a regular bore brush & a Dewy rod.
Even my nice Weatherby. I wrap a patch around a bore brush, run it through the barrel until it's clean & finish with a light coat of oil. Unless it's a super-duper ultra-match rifle there's just no need to be so anal about it.
And even with the match rifle it seems to be more ritual than anything else.

Of course I've heard it said: "I don't merely CLEAN my rifle; I MAKE LOVE to it!"

[Farmer from Hell]

Originally posted by Frontsight!:
Farmer, water is softer than stone, yet the Grand Canyon exists.

Ummm

Read my profile. http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif

I wish it was that simple.

FfH



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He who has the biggest gun makes the rules

http://assaultweb.net/ubb/emoticons/091.gif

[W.E.G.]

The greatest harm comes when the rod goes in caddywampus and dings the rifling or worse, the crown.

If nothing but the bristles ever contacted the bore, your forearms would look like Popeye by the time you did any real harm.

[faler G]

Saw somewhere the correct procedure for breaking in a new FAL but can't locate it on the net. I believe it said shoot ten rounds, cleaning between each shot. Then, shoot five shots, straight, and clean after the five shots. Bugging me to find just where it was. Thanks, Jim

[ March 22, 2002: Message edited by: EMDII ]

[xhp25ken]

I seem to remember that Fulton Armory's web site had a break in procedure for badger barrels? or maybe it was DS Arms.

[xhp25ken]

I had saved this to my computer but am not finding where I had found it originally on the web but am forwarding it for what it's worth?

"We've received a number of requests regarding what we believe to be the best way to break in a new barrel, so it seemed appropriate to address that here. We recommend the following for the first 10 shots using jacketed bullets with nitro (Smokeless) powder loads. After firing each bullet, use a good copper cleaner to remove the copper fouling from the barrel. After shot 6 or 7, you'll note, you will not be able to see any copper residue on the rifling, but continue the process of cleaning after each shot until all 10 have been fired. For the next 10 shots, clean after every 2 shots until all 10 have been fired.
This method is nothing more than insurance that the burnishing process has been completed. In fact, what you have accomplished is closing the pores of the barrel metal which had been opened and exposed through the cutting and lapping procedures. By the way, the same process applies to firing lead bullets and black powder with one exception, shoot two bullets before cleaning and follow that procedure until 30 rounds have been fired. Using harder lead bullets will help speed up the process if you have them. Following this procedure, your barrel should shoot cleaner and develop less fouling for the remainder of its useful shooting life."

Anyone with other thoughts on this subject? Ted? Anyone?

Thanks,
Ken

[ByronF]

I filed the barrel break in procedure right next to my deer whistles and magnetic bracelet. Unnecessary, but it might make you feel better about your new barrel. And it isn't hard, so why not?

As far as the procedure goes, that's just a bunch of chicken bone dance. If nobody can prove it is necessary, how can anyone map out a precise procedure? You can't. Might as well make it up as you go. That's what the original author did. Shoot a couple of rounds, clean, shoot a few more rounds, clean, shoot still a few more rounds, clean, shoot a battlepack into the burm and call it good.

Byron

[faler G]

thanks, guys. I believe, Ken, you have printed the exact same procedure I had lost. I looked on DSA sight but failed to locate it. I have a new DSA SA58 Carbine and would recommend it to anyone. Thanks again.

[W.E.G.]

If barrel "break-in" is a necessary evil, how come nobody sells already-broken-in barrels?...especially stanless barrels that don't involve the refinishing issue.

They could even show you the groups of how it shot before break-in, and how much better (ha-ha!) it shot after their special double-secret break-in technique.

[Derby FALs]

Originally posted by gary.jeter:
<STRONG>If barrel "break-in" is a necessary evil, how come nobody sells already-broken-in barrels?...especially stanless barrels that don't involve the refinishing issue.

They could even show you the groups of how it shot before break-in, and how much better (ha-ha!) it shot after their special double-secret break-in technique.</STRONG>
It is not necessary to break in a barrel. If you do though, you will notice it cleans 10 times easier.
The procedure is listed on DSA's site. Some folks clean between each shot for the first 50 rounds and every 5 after that up to 100.

[Billwil]

The truth is to be found somewhere in between what you have read here. For a realistic explanation go to the Krieger Barrels (who make some of the best) website and read their explanation. It really only benefits a new barrel and then if it is a precision made one. The benefit to a standard barrel may be ease of maintenance (cleaning) at best. Other gunmakers say it is a farce! Benchrest shooters are fanatic about barrel break-in, but everone has their own special routine and majic cleaning concoction. For a battle rifle with iron sights a truly great barrel would be a waste of money IMHO. Myself I prefer Butches Bore Shine (or the ororless M Pro 7 if the wife is around).

[Derby FALs]

Even a used barrel can be re-seasoned. If it is undamaged it just needs to be thoroughly cleaned. Krieger Barrels are broken in when you get them. That is what their finish lapping is all about. It is a matter of lapping the spots that rip the jacket off the bullet as it's traveling down the barrel.

[Coppertone]

The Badger Barrels article is at the bottom of this page on DSA's site:

Badger Barrels Barrel Break-In (http://www.dsarms.com/front_ends.htm)

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Coppertone ]

[shootist]

Gale McMillian has posted on other sites that this procedure was dreamed up by one of his former employees that now makes his own barrels. The bottom line is that this is nothing but a way to prematurely wear out barrels so that the manufacturer can sell more. More barrel are ruined by over cleaning than under cleaning (excluding the use of corrossive ammo).