M16A2 PARTS KIT FROM TAPCO AND THERMOLDS FROM RGUNS

[Offctr]

BBT HAPPINESS !! Daily Double !!
Yep got my kit from TAPCO --AND--Thermolds from RGUNS (in Illinois)Woo-hoo!!
some Pics-- http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1727175&a=13833078&p=55274059
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1727175&a=13833078&p=55274061 http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1727175&a=13833078&p=55274065
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1727175&a=13833078&p=55274064 http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1727175&a=13833078&p=55274062
Pretty much a rack grade service rifle --the bore is the kicker-really really pristene --beautiful!! Very greasy -as you can see- mostly all finish wear and as I intend to refinish --no problem.
Thermolds are new -as advertised $17 ea 4 day shipping good service from rguns.
Cant wait to neuter (cant afford another preban lower)this one and go to the range.
The worst part was separating out the 3round burst parts on my desk at work but the engineers got a kick outta seeing how 3round pawl and rachet worked (I think one of em is a budding Falaholic!! hee hee!)
Thanks TAPCO Thanks RGUNS !! :D

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Offctr ]

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Offctr ]

[GridSpot]

Great Photos, thanks for the intel! Dave

[Slugger]

Offctr, looks like you got a good shooter. Congrats and thanks for sharing.

[ricochet]

Offctr,
Yours looks at least 100% better than mine. Mine looks like someone beat on it with a chisel. I will take a file and sandpaper and remove the large burrs from the carry handle and replace the sights and a few parts. We cannot all get the good ones. Oh well, she'll be OK. :rolleyes:

[tdandy]

Offctr:

Thanks for posting the pic's, I have 2 Olympic PCR-99 lowers I bought just before the CA AW ban and it looks like those TAPCO kits are the ticket.

Did you need to buy AR H/T/S for the setup to work with your AR lower? Would the AR parts work with the M16 bolt?

Good luck with the rifle, Redman

[msnyder]

I'm not positive about this but I think the AR-15 will slamfire in full auto if you install m16 bolt carrier and pull out the disconnector.
I think to play it safe I'll be putting all semi auto parts in mine.

[Offctr]

I just threw it together on my M4/CAR lower to for the pics It so the fire control in that lower is all semi only stuff the original parts I have secured at my place of business until I decide what to do with them and remain legal.
I still need to degrease pull it apart and repark/refinish the upper and barrel assemblys as well as do away with flash hider and bayo lug.

[TheOtherChris]

Originally posted by msnyder:
<STRONG>I'm not positive about this but I think the AR-15 will slamfire in full auto if you install m16 bolt carrier and pull out the disconnector.
I think to play it safe I'll be putting all semi auto parts in mine.</STRONG>

To my knowledge, the only people that have ever been able to pull that off is the BATF, and they had to use especially soft primers.
There just isn't enough force on the firing pin when the hammer follows the bolt and 'pushes' the pin instead of striking it.

YMMV,

[msnyder]

Of course since NFA rules don't care which primers are used in the ammunition, an M16 carrier in a semi auto rifle would probably constitute a machine gun.

[TheOtherChris]

Originally posted by msnyder:
<STRONG>Of course since NFA rules don't care which primers are used in the ammunition, an M16 carrier in a semi auto rifle would probably constitute a machine gun.</STRONG>

I have not read any rulings from BATF that would support that interpretation. The only thing I have seen from BATF was a suggestion that M16 carriers not be used.

I have always stayed 100% legal but I am not going to spend extra money to remove something from my firearm because of a *suggestion*.
If they issue a bulletin, I will comply.
That is what I did with the older rifles I have that *had* M16 parts in them. One was a factory Colt.

[tdandy]

A fellow I know has an M-16 bolt & carrier in his DPMS AR, what advantage this is I do not know but he likes it and it works fine, semi, like it should. He is also proud of the fact that he has "sharpened" his firing pin I suppose to better ignite a hard primer???

It seems like you should only get semi from those M-16 parts as there will be no auto sear installed to trip the hammer at battery. The 3 shot burst assbly should go in OK but not able to function except in semi, but maybe an AR H/T/D would look better upon inspection by LEO.

[ricochet]

I looked at mine more closely. I lied, yours looks at least 200% better than mine. My barrel is fine, so I have what I really wanted. But MINE WILL NEVER LOOK ANYWHERE NEAR THAT GOOD. I believe mine was abused quite a bit, and someone hacked on it with some blunt instrument, but the barrel is what I wanted. A few hours with a file and sandpaper, and a few parts and mine will be ok. But it looks like shit. Some days chicken, some days feathers. Mine was from a bad day.
It will be ok, but never good like yours. They should whip the ass of whoever used mine.

[usmc326]

Several years ago ATF issue a flyer about M16 parts: the bolt carrier is illegal.
Century has built post-ban AR's from these kits over the years, and they always mill a chunk out of the bottom of the M16 carrier, so that an auto sear can't function. The milling was crude, and a Dremel could do as good or better. AR-15.com had pictures on their site of what needs to be removed. Or, just compare an AR-15 carrier and duplicate the cut. Century
wouldn't have modified the carrier if it wasn't necessary.
Semi lower parts are cheap, for those M16 parts that can't be easily modified. I sure wouldn't order an AR
carrier, as it defeats keeping the costs down.

[msnyder]

The M16 can be converted to fire full auto without the auto sear by enabling it to slam fire. The AR-15 bolt carrier exposes the firing pin collar so the hammer gets caught and cannot ride the bolt home causing the slam fire. So, if you install an m16 carrier in your rifle you have just made it readily convertible to a machine gun by definition of USC 26 Sec. 5848 (b). The auto sear and other M-16 parts are only necessary to enable the rifle to fire full auto in the way it was designed to be fired, with a delay that allows bolt to close before hammer is dropped.

United States Code, Title 26, Section 5845 (b)

"Machinegun
The term ''machinegun'' means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. "

I would imagine there are alot of people with illegal machine guns that don't know just how readily convertible they are. Most probably won't get caught. BUT who's to say
that Big Brother isn't watching this site
to see how many of us openly admit we are going to use an m-16 carrier to build our rifles with? Would that be enough info to supply probable cause for a search of your residence? Don't know, I'm not a lawyer but for the record, I will always use semi auto part(s) in MY ar-15(s).

[TheOtherChris]

Originally posted by usmc326:
<STRONG>Several years ago ATF issue a flyer about M16 parts: the bolt carrier is illegal.
Century has built post-ban AR's from these kits over the years, and they always mill a chunk out of the bottom of the M16 carrier, so that an auto sear can't function. The milling was crude, and a Dremel could do as good or better. AR-15.com had pictures on their site of what needs to be removed. Or, just compare an AR-15 carrier and duplicate the cut. Century
wouldn't have modified the carrier if it wasn't necessary.
Semi lower parts are cheap, for those M16 parts that can't be easily modified. I sure wouldn't order an AR
carrier, as it defeats keeping the costs down.</STRONG>

I don't know if that is the same flyer I saw or not. The one I saw said that they recommend that you avoid using the M16 carrier.

If anybody can point me to an ATF bulletin that says an M16 carrier is prohibited, I would greatly appreciate it.

[xIA]

Fall 1986 FFL News, BATF

"...M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR15-type semi-automatic rifles unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR15 Model SP1 configuration."

[RRotz]

Looking good! Mine was about that nice. THANK YOU FAC!

[bigdadytid]

looks like the cosmoline fairy has been by

[Eclipse]

Check out this page over at AR15.com for AR15 vs M16 part comparisons:
http://www.ar15.com/articles/article.html?article=31

[TheOtherChris]

Originally posted by Inland Armory:
<STRONG>Fall 1986 FFL News, BATF

"...M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR15-type semi-automatic rifles unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR15 Model SP1 configuration."</STRONG>

There you are.
The M16 carrier is OK as long as the fire control parts are "modified to AR15 Model SP1 configuration."

I believe that this was the same memo (or one with similar language) that I saw that also recommended that an M16 carrier not be used at all.

This makes me much happier. I did not want to be required to replace a $60-$80 part (carrier) in all of my AR's just because some local office decided I should.

Thanks for the research.

[xIA]

Um, not to be a poop, but methinks that's a pretty optomistic reading on your part. You can modify the M16 carrier to AR15 specs as well, and I believe that is what it says to do, since the words "bolt carriers" and "must not" are in there...

Here's the text from ATF's site in its entirety:

1.IMPORTANT INFORMATION CONCERNING

AR-15 TYPE RIFLES


ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machineguns. The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the five M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.


Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than one shot by a single function of the trigger is a machinegun under the NFA. Any machinegun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machinegun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution.


Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger.


In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.


It is important to note that any modification of the M16 parts should be attempted by fully qualified personnel only.


Should you have any questions concerning AR-15 type rifles with M16 parts, please contact your nearest ATF Criminal Enforcement Office. Our telephone numbers are listed in the "United States Government" section of your telephone directory under the "United States Treasury Department."

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Inland Armory ]

[msnyder]

"In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person."

Anyone have any opinions on:

How to order this kit without having it under your control?

How to have the parts modified without them being under your control?

[Bullet]

Originally posted by msnyder:
<STRONG>"In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person."

Anyone have any opinions on:

How to order this kit without having it under your control?

How to have the parts modified without them being under your control?</STRONG>
There is a leagal term for what you described but I can't recall. While on jury duty several prosecuting attornies described it. Basically, if you put an item some where so that you can retrieve it latter, it means it is under your control, and hence in your possession. It seems the street drug dealers thought that if they hide the drugs around the corner under a rock they couldn't be arrested for drug possession. Wrong.

Anyway, what is every one worried about? Don't all of you receive fal kits with the auto sear and just throw it away? It seems that many build compliance fals that use the same trigger and hammer that can be used in a full auto? Manybe the alphabet toads think differnt when it concerns an AR15.

[Bullet]

BTW - it would be intresting to know if the ATF ever goes around to suppliers for the addressed where they send these kits. And do/would they readily hand over the info? Inquiring minds want to know.

[msnyder]

The difference between an FAL and an AR-15 is
that the AR-15 can be converted to fire full auto without machining the receiver and without the auto sear. The AR-15 will fire
full auto if you allow the hammer to follow
the bolt home but the FAL won't. Also the FAL auto sear won't work unless you machine the receiver.

[RRotz]

I thought I heard someone saying that an M16 bolt carrier will go full auto if used with an AR15 lower.......I think it was said it would cause a slam fire or something.....what's the word on this?

[msnyder]

From Inland Armory's quote above.
"Many of these rifles using less than the five M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector."
The M16 carrier minus the disconnector is one of the above scenarios.

I wonder if an AR-15 and a file also counts as a machine gun?

[msnyder]

I finally got brave or stupid and called my local ATF office to ask how I can comply with their interpretations of firearms regulations. Evidently they don't know either. The duty agent didn't know and referred me to the inspector who is out of town until 11/2. Figures.

[xIA]

Never trust a field agent. Call the F&E Tech branch, and if you like what they say, mail the guy you talked to and have him respond to your question in writing.
Bad info from a field agent is no defense, just like the IRS... :(

[Blood of Tyrants]

How to comply.

1. Buy the parts kit.

2. Sell or dispose of the full auto parts at a gun show and let some other guy worry about them. Make sure to warn him of the implications of converting an AR-15 to full auto.

3. Replace the parts you sold with new ones.

4. Finally, buy a lower receiver and assemble the parts.

The trick is to NOT have both the receiver and the full auto parts in your possession at the same time.

[msnyder]

Thanks for the advice!