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45x4
June 18, 2007, 20:38
Just finished my first.

Sorry if I have missed this info in the past, a quick search didn't help me.

Shooting standard Winchester 147 ball, I can't get more than 4 shots without a misfeed, jam, or stovepipe.

I have run the gas plug from full open to full closed.

MOST problems are stovepipes, but lots of them are failure to eject, thus the bolt trying to close on an empty and a full round, ( this torqes me...ruined brass!)

I tore rifle down, cleaned and oiled...........rechecked everything I could think of........no luck.

Bright side.....seems to shoot well........as in accurate, although I haven't shot it on paper, but can bust rocks across a small canyon!

Also, some failures to close the bolt, when droping the bolt on a magazine......doesn't seem to matter how many rounds are loaded in mag.

thanks in advance.

vmtz
June 18, 2007, 20:45
You need to tell us what receiver and what kit it is built on. If a CAI, see the sticky where CE shows how to build a CAI.

Vince

Mosin Guy
June 18, 2007, 20:46
Among the most common symptoms of FTF/FTE (failure to feed, failure to extract) are the following:

1. Bolt riding over the cartridge either causing a jam or missing the cartridge altogether

2. New cartridge only partially chambers, spent casing extracts and may or may not eject

3. New cartridge jamming against back of receiver

4. No apparent movement of bolt or carrier regardless of gas setting

5. Partial extraction of spent casing regardless of gas setting, casing jams hard in chamber

6. Gas tube blows out of gas block

7. I've done all the stuff to get more gas but my FAL STILL won't cycle properly.

8. Bolt closes easily on headspace guage but will not chamber round. Jams up tight.

FIRST, have you checked and made sure that your extractor hasn't broken?

I will deal with them in order.

Before you do anything, ensure that the rifle is assembled correctly and there are no broken parts.

1. Bolt riding over the cartridge – This is a FTF problem and can almost always be traced to three common problems.

a. First, check to see if the magazine is being held in the mag well tightly. If it is loose, your problem is most likely a mag catch that is too short. The solution is to replace it with one with an extended mag catch. Tapco offers extended mag catches for about $10. Alternately you could weld a small bead on the end. In either case you will have to “file to fit” for a good tight hold.

b. Second, take the bolt and carrier out and remove the dust cover and close the rifle. Insert a mag with at least two cartridges into the mag well. Now look at the mag from the top of the receiver to see if the mag looks like it is symmetrically positioned in the well, especially near the front. Most often it is well used mags that have this problem which will manifest itself as a FTF from one side of the mag or the other. Also, check the mag for a weak spring. In either case. Get a new mag and throw this one away. (Yes, you can replace a weak spring if you have another bad mag laying around but at $10 each for new mags, it is hardly worth it.)

c. Third, look for long fairly deep scratches in the cases of cartridges that have jammed. This is usually caused by sharp edges on the feed plate at the top of the mag well and more often on cartridges that feed from the left than the right. Polish the edges of the feed plate with 400 grit wet or dry or finer.

2. New cartridge only partially chambers, spent casing extracts and may or may not eject

a. If the spent casing eject reliably, check to see if the bolt carrier moves easily in the rails. Imbel GL (gear logo) receivers are well made but a common problem is that the receiver rail is directly beneath some of the lettering stampings and occasionally gets distorted from an over zealous machine operator. Gunplumber suggests taking a small bastard file and gently but firmly filing the “hump” off.

b. If you have an aftermarket HTS (hammer, trigger, sear) combo installed, remove and replace them with the pieces that were provided with the kit for troubleshooting. Century is not known for tight adherence to tolerances and their HTS will often cause FTF problems because they drag on the bottom of the bolt or carrier.

c. Make sure that the recoil tube is straight and undamaged and that the spring and recoil plunger are lightly greased. A small amount of grease will not cause the rifle to lock up.

d. Check for weak recoil spring. R&R as necessary.

e. Perform gas checks in Number 4. c, d, e, f, and i.

3. New cartridge jamming against back of receiver

a. This is most common with Century receivers. I have bad news, there is a problem with the design of the feed ramps that cannot be fixed easily. Polish the feed ramps with a felt tip and rouge on a Dremel and it may fix it. Others have suggested MIG welding or brazing a small ramp and Dremeling it to shape. Proceed at your own discretion.

b. This can also be a problem caused by a slightly out of spec barrel. The barrel around the chamber cut should have a bevel about 1/8" wide. You can widen it slightly with a small file and polish it with fine sandpaper and then a felt tip and rouge on a dremel.

4. No apparent movement of bolt or carrier regardless of gas setting

a. Check that the gas plug is in the “A” position.

b. You DID remember to put the gas piston back in, didn’t you?

c. Check to make sure the gas tube is pinned in place and has not rotated. Ideally, the exhaust ports in the gas tube should be at 8 o’clock and 4 o’clock but if they are at 10 and 2, it will not affect operation.

d. Ensure that the gas port is not obstructed.

e. Check that gas piston is not undersized or worn. Proper diameter is between 0.429” and 0.431”.

f. Excess leakage around gas tube, see No. 6

g. Check that the bolt carrier “rat tail” is straight and in the recoil plunger detent and not jammed against the back of the lower receiver when closed.

h. Take the gas piston spring out and roll the piston on a flat surface to check for straightness. Reinstall the gas piston with the bolt and carrier removed. The piston should fall freely through the gas cylinder and gas nut. If not check gas tube and gas nut for roundness and damage.

i. Check for cracked gas block.

j. Make sure you haven't put a metric gas plug in an inch gas block. A metric gas plug is about 3/16" longer than the inch plug. The gas plugs are not interchangeable.

5. Partial extraction of spent casing regardless of gas setting, casing jams hard in chamber

a. This is most often a problem of not enough gas. What is REALLY happening is that the spent casing is going back a small distance and then being pushed back forward into the chamber and shares solutions with No. 4. c, d, e, and f above.

b. Check that the gas piston moves freely. See 4. h above.

c. Check that carrier moves freely. See 2. a, b, and c above.

6. Gas tube blows out of gas block. This is a common problem in the G1 kits and the solution is both simple and cheap.

a. First, clean the thread of the gas block and gas cylinder and spread a small amout of solder flux on the threads.

b. Install and pin the gas tube with the exhaust ports at 4 and 8 o’clock on the rifle as if you are preparing to shoot it without the gas piston or spring installed.

c. Using Mapp gas, heat the threaded area and apply silver solder (preferably high temp silver solder because it is stronger) until it flows into the joint.

d. After the area cools, clean the excess flux off the area (some flux is acid based) and you may file the high spots off the solder with a small file if your solder job isn’t too pretty or interferes with the gas regulator.

e. With a Dremel cut off wheel, cut the gas tube off about 2 inches from the back of the tube (the end closest to the receiver) and discard it. Use sandpaper to smooth the end off.

7. I've done all the stuff to get more gas but my FAL STILL won't cycle properly

a. Okay, one more trick to get more bleed gas. Remove the gas plug, piston, spring and tube. put a 1/4" wooden dowel down the barrel.

b. Starting with a #41 or so drill bit insert it BY HAND through the bleed hole in the gas block and use it to determine the size of the gas port hole in your barrel.

c. Once you have determined the approximate diameter of your gas port hole, take the next larger drill bit and use it to ream the hole out. Keep the drill speed slow and use plenty of cutting fluid and you will be less likely to break your drill bit off in the hole.

d. Test the function of the rifle once you have gone up a couple of sizes. You should see some improvement. You can increase the size of the hole up to about 0.125" untill you get enough gas for proper operation.


8. Bolt closes easily on headspace guage but will not chamber round. Jams up tight.

a. Does a cartridge fit into the chamber when you feed it by hand?

No. Clean chamber thoroughly. Ensure cartridge is in spec. Lastly, you may need to ream the chamber slightly.

Yes. It could be the top rear edge of the bolt binding up against the top inside of the carrier. Put a piece of Playdoh or some other putty on the inside top rear of the bolt carrier and then put the bolt in the carrier. Put them both in the receiver and try to push it closed with a cartride in the bolt until it binds. Pull the bolt and carrier out and observe the Playdoh. Is it pinched all the way to the carrier? If so, file a small amount off the top rear of the bolt until it clears.

Radio
June 18, 2007, 22:55
Whew.

What more can be said, after THAT?

:bow:

45x4
June 18, 2007, 22:59
Originally posted by vmtz
You need to tell us what receiver and what kit it is built on. If a CAI, see the sticky where CE shows how to build a CAI.

Vince

Imbel kit, good condition, used. DSA receiver.........new.

vmtz
June 18, 2007, 23:05
I think Mosin guy just about said it all.

I would check to make sure the gas piston is not binding and that the gas port on the barrel is clear. Is the rifle full length or a carbine?

Vince

45x4
June 18, 2007, 23:12
Originally posted by Mosin Guy Get a new mag and throw this one away. (Yes, you can replace a weak spring if you have another bad mag laying around but at $10 each for new mags, it is hardly worth it.)


As soon as I get this figured out, I need to know the sourse of new mags @ $10!!

45x4
June 18, 2007, 23:13
Originally posted by vmtz
I think Mosin guy just about said it all.

I would check to make sure the gas piston is not binding and that the gas port on the barrel is clear. Is the rifle full length or a carbine?

Vince

Full length.

45x4
June 18, 2007, 23:15
Mosin Guy,

Thank you for all that effort!!!!

I will go through this step by,........tomorrow night!

vmtz
June 18, 2007, 23:16
Originally posted by 45x4


Full length.

So I will assume that the gas port is not too small.

Vince

45x4
June 18, 2007, 23:22
Just to add this,
the rifle shoots well, ejects good, when it doesn't jam. It throws emptys about 5 feet at a 45 degree angle to the right and front of the ejection port.

The two main concerns are stovepipes, and the empty remaining in the rifle, but not in the chamber. usually this results it a ruined case, as the bolt slams foreward with enough force to shove the case into the top of the chamber mouth, the result of which is like sitting the case upright on a bench, placing a chisel across the mouth, and hitting the chisel with a hammer. The case does not enter the chamber, because the top round in the mag has begun to strip from the mag, and the bullet is entering the chamber.

45x4
June 18, 2007, 23:24
Originally posted by vmtz


So I will assume that the gas port is not too small.

Vince

I will check, tomorrow!

vmtz
June 18, 2007, 23:27
Originally posted by 45x4
Just to add this,
the rifle shoots well, ejects good, when it doesn't jam. It throws emptys about 5 feet at a 45 degree angle to the right and front of the ejection port.

The two main concerns are stovepipes, and the empty remaining in the rifle, but not in the chamber. usually this results it a ruined case, as the bolt slams foreward with enough force to shove the case into the top of the chamber mouth, the result of which is like sitting the case upright on a bench, placing a chisel across the mouth, and hitting the chisel with a hammer. The case does not enter the chamber, because the top round in the mag has begun to strip from the mag, and the bullet is entering the chamber.

Have you tried closing the gas more? If so, is the gas tube retaining pin in place?

Vince

Mosin Guy
June 18, 2007, 23:30
all the info I posted was cut a pasted from this thread http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1915851#post1915851

45x4
June 19, 2007, 19:43
Thanks to all who replied to a newbee...............

I think I have it fixed. While running thru the trouble shooting posted by 'Mosin"
I noticed that I could not close the bolt/boltcarrier on a FACTORY Winchester round with gentle thumb pressure, yet I could close them on my "go guage".

I measured the locking shoulder, (.267") then measured another one I have, (.265")....I replaced, or swapped them, and tried every round in a box of Wincherster ammo............all allowed the bolt to close with thumb pressure..........

I think I had the head space just .002" to tight......and the bolt would slam the round home, but it took to much of the enery from the gas system to unlock the bolt.......(It being tightly locked home by the too tight headspace,) for the bolt to carry rearward with enough force to eject properly.

Fact or newbee theory?

I have not fired the rifle yet to test my theory....yet it seems like a good one. there is no visible play in the bolt with a round chambered......yet it now locks into place more easily.