Gunplumbers review of oly FAL... oly's response

[SA58mcs]

...I see that gunplumbers review of Oly's FAL has made it to the olympic arms message board on their website. (...hmm, I wonder who could have posted it?)Call it, an opportunity to defend their product. It seemed only fair to me. I've been checking out the fal files for about a year and a half, since I first started learning about the FAL and all it's many variants. In that amount of time I've never heard anything negative uttered about gunplumber. (in that time I've also had some negative dealings with Oly) But, fair is fair... and I was curious as to Oly's response to such a thorough trashing of their Fal. To say their response was weak would be an uderstatement. Tom Spithaler seemed to insinuate gunplumber had an alterior motive. He said "An opinion from one man who also freely admits to be a seller of "custom" FAL rifles himself can hardly be considered an onjective one in my opinion" Don't know about anybody else, but I found the review to pretty objective... all the facts were there backed up by pictures and diagrams for crying out loud. Furthermore, he had this to say. "Having just read the review by "gunplumber" of an Oly T48-2000 FAL rifle, I found I had to make an additional comment.

My comment is; My first comment fell far too short in exposing shortcomings in the "investigative" review of our rifle.

I found several "as fact" statments that were just outright wrong, and many other insinuations, opinions or guesses that were misleading or showed a lack of the complete grasp of the subject of which was being spoken of. I just found it rather surprising to see a self proclaimed FAL expert fall so short in some obvoius areas.

Tom S.
Oly Arms

...these areas are obvious? If they are, they have somehow escaped me. I would think, was hoping... for something to back up what Tom was declaring. (you know, pictures..diagrams..etc)He never mentioned what these shortcomings were. None so far.Hmm. Well, let me see. Who to believe?

[Gavin]

I read that review - and agree - the pics were VERY convincing. The receiver looked like absolute SH*T - messy machining, looked like it was made with a chisel, and the assembly... well, even at my most novice point, I have NEVER EVER put something together that looked that DAMN shitty!
Oly, you're the new kid on this block, either clean up your act, or you'll get RUN OUT OF TOWN!!
Gavin

[cllary]

Oly should be reminded that being a custom FAL builder is not the same as a receiver manufacturer. This is not the world of AR's where anyone can stamp out a passable receiver and throw on FN parts for a complete "custom" rifle. IMO, if Oly made a decent receiver, GP would use them. He has no financial incentive from Imbel or DSA to use their products it is just he can give his customers the best product by using those parts.

[SA58mcs]

....well, hey. I was waiting for Tom to deny accusations of their FAL being 'spray painted'. It didn't seem to be forthcoming. I mean... spray painted?? My mind is open to the facts. If his FAL is all that and a bag of chips, then let me hear the facts. Educate me.

[Rifleman44]

I will trust my life to Gunplumber, can't say the same about Oly. No offense intended.

[Ssarge]

I would never, ever buy anything from Oly Arms. Back in the good old days, before the ban, Oly was working up the OA93 AR15 pistol prototype. The owner was told, if he made it in 7.62x39mm, millions of rounds of legally imported Chinese AP ammo would be illegal to be sold. It would now be "pistol" ammo, and be covered by the "cop killer" ammo ban. His reply was to the effect, "**** 'em". When his product hit the market place, lot's of dealers were stuck with large ammounts of cheap, Chinese AP 7,62x39 ammo. Prior to this, I could buy that ammo for about $50 a 1000.
Anyone who will impact so many others in such a negative financial way, will never ever get any of my money.

[Keith Buckner]

BEING a custom FAL builder would definately put Mark in the group of substantial RECEIVER BUYERS, since he certainly does NOT manufacture his own brand receiver.

His rep would hinge on the quality of end product he could produce using a receiver made by a receiver MANUFACTURER (like OLY).

Mark is certainly unabashed in his communications, but it is QUITE CLEAR he takes GREAT PRIDE in his work and SEEKS ANTYHING that will enrich his customers' experiences, therefore his opinion would HAVE to be unbiased!!

That argument is more detrimental to OLY than Gunplumber. What kind of "braniac" would make such a ridiculous statement?
Just sour grapes from a sour group.

Pathetic... really.

[Blackmore]

Let's not forget that Mr. Spithaler NEVER responded to two reviews that were posted on these forums by a consumer:

http://www.l1a1.com/cgi-bin/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000302

http://www.l1a1.com/cgi-bin/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=7&t=000308

No ulterior motive for Ross like Gunplumber is accused of.

I have an STG58A which is my sole basis of comparison with the Oly FAL I saw at a gunshow. I tried to take the Oly apart as I have stated here before, but I couldn't even get the receiver cover off. From what I did see, I completely agree with Mark and Ross that the Oly is not only junk, but dangerous and probably non 922(r) compliant.
This wouldn't be the first time that Mr. Spithaler has responded to criticism with bluster and innuendo. It is frequently seen on the Oly forum at AR15.com. Why not just admit you could have done much better and then do everything you can to make something you can be proud of?

EDIT: 11/7/01 Links no longer work. C'mon Ted. These were barely 2 months old and were pertinent to an ongoing discussion.

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Blackmore ]

[SA58mcs]

All I can say is that I'm forced to agree 100%. It looks like junk, sour grapes, fairly pathetic. Instead of sucking it up and and just admitting that it has some bugs to be hammered out, I feel I was told to 'ignore that man behind the curtain!'. More power to ya gunplumber, Oly has unwittingly made you look really good while simultaneously making themselves look reallllly bad. A shame really. I own one of their pre-ban AR's... and I've been hoping for years they'd actually get their act together so I can stop being embarrassed about owning one of their products (not that I've ever had any problems with it, to be fair)

[Offctr]

I have one of OLY's forged AR lowers and I have to say its fine, must be the good one.
The Oly FAL and the attitude of the owner expressed above I find a dissappointment.
In these matters I find Mark to be above reproach and perfectly blunt and honest he always backs up his reviews with specific measurements documentation and pictures.
Instead of attacking the reviewer if Mr.S had chosen to accept or refute specific points of the review and make changes to his reciever and the production of the Oly FAL I would have been impressed and it would have elevated the respect I would have had for his company. As a result of his comments above I doubt I will be buying anything from him at all ever. Any company that would knowingly put a product in its customers hands that might end up with them having to spend serious time in jail and remove thier RKBA forever is not worth doing business with.

[jimmieZ]

I bought an Oly receiver to build an excellent L1A1 using the kit I got from TAPCO. I have to admit that my receiver looks much better than what was pictured by Gunplumber. It was not perfect - had no feed ramps and needed attention to the charging handle opening. The exterior finish was very nice and quite uniform - pretty much equivalent to Entreprise. My rifle went together pretty well and is very accurate. Again, this was assembled by me and is far nicer than the POS that Gunplumber reviewed - I guess I got a good one.

Jim Z

[AZ Rocketeer]

Like I'd posted under Mark's review of the Oly FAL, I saw it in person at his house, and I have NOTHING to gain by stating it's the biggest piece of Donkey Doo I've ever seen. Not to mention the fact that the STG58 flashhider had the end milled off,(fine) but it was still just screwed on...I unscrewed it by hand! The whole thing was painted, and Mark popped a couple of pieces out, and you could see the old finish under them, indicating that the rifle had been painted while it was assembled!!! Un real! :eek:

[AZ Rocketeer]

SA58, what is the URL for Oly's message board? I looked on their site, but didn't see any forums or anything like that.

Thanks!

[awp101]

Originally posted by Offctr:
<STRONG>I have one of OLY's forged AR lowers and I have to say its fine, must be the good one.</STRONG>

HAHAHAHAHA! :D

When I was getting serious about building an AR, I asked around ar15.com about them.

When only about one in 10 says they are happy with what they got (not defending Oly, just saying they got a good 'un), I figured they might be more trouble than I wanted.

The only folks who got hammered more in that thread was American Spirit Arms. :eek:

[Bullet]

Did yall get a load of the pics in Gunplumber's review? That has got to be the worst looking fal that I've ever seen. How on earth could Oly Arms defend themselves for the lack of quailty?

[mp]

Not that I'm defending Olympics crappy product, but Gunplumber must live in some vortex that sucks the worst products his way. I am still waiting to get an Entreprise receiver that looks like the one he reviewed, but I'm on my 6th one, and not a single problem yet. Weird.......

[DWS]

I can remember when Oly had some QC problems about 12 years ago with the ARs. They were pretty arrogant then and lost a lot of customers. The lowers sucked!I was going to buy a carbine from them but went to Colt instead.
They were pricks then and now. I will not buy a damn thing from them.I am not a manufacturer, But I assure you when I run a business I'm going to know what is going out the shipping door. Management and QC must've had their heads in their asses.
That rifle looked like something that would even give WECSOG members a nightmare! Mark's review was dead on, To attack him is stupidity on Oly's behalf. :(

[SA58mcs]

I believe Offctr summed up my feelings about it perfectly. Oly's problem has always been quality control. I rebuilt my old AR carbine into something better. Bought an Oly upper since I had an old SGW lower. It took 3 exchanges, 9 months and some bitching to get it right... but when all was said and done I've got a nice looking rifle that operates tip top. What a pain in the keaster though. I had one more major problem with an item resulting in a return, and that was it. Like I said, I keep waiting for the day when they get a clue and pull their heads out of their arses. How much bad PR is it going to take??

[Rifleman44]

I went to the Oly web site to see for myself that they attempted to defend their product by trashing Mark Graham, the Gunplumber.

That ole dog won't hunt, Oly.

I have no idea what others on this Board will choose to do, but since you decided to trash Mark Graham, one of "our own" and the premiere FAL gunsmith, I CAN PROMISE YOU THAT I WILL NEVER, REPEAT NEVER, BUY ANY OF YOUR PRODUCTS.

I am sure a lifetime boycott by one person holds no concern to you, but you might feel it if others choose to join me.

[DWS]

This is the way I see it, If we tell this to a few people word of mouth will do the rest. Maybe after they lose a ton of business they will change who's in charge. If they don't change someone else will surely buy them out when they hit rock bottom. SOUNDS TO ME LIKE THEY ARE PRETTY CLOSE!!!! ;)

[LAK LAF]

Sounds to me like the classic example of kill the messenger!! :rolleyes:

[gunplumber]

I stopped buying Oly products when they admitted on the AR 15 forum that they were selling their defective seconds AR receivers to Mikie Gs, and that there was no warranty on them, but no way of telling if it was a first or a second. Knowingly selling anything with your name on it that you know isnt right shows the value of the name. Then I bought out a shop in a purchase that included 40 Olympic 1911 stainless frames and slides. My god they were horrible. Having the frames oversize and the slides undersize I could understand, but having the breech faces >.020" too far forward was a disaster - all those perfectly good barrels I had to machine down to fit the slides.

But then Derek had a Oly 9mm upper that was gtreat so I ordered one. It came "new" with the barrel shot out, pitted, and with so much copper fouling I assume it was used as a full auto demo gun. The barrel was rusted, AND, it took 2 months after receiving my money to deliver it, and then another two months to return my money when I sent the POS back. Oh - and don't e-mail olympic. Tom will automatically put you on their political action mailing list and forward your address to thousands of others. Oh yeah - and sending a not saying "remove" gets you added again!

All of the above of course is just extraneous material. The pics show the review. The text just guides you on what to look for in the picture.

[farranger]

Fortunately before I bought anything OLY I found out about their 7.62x39 pistol debacle. I wonder if the bat men paid him to do that, I mean I hate to say that, but what other motive could someone have to do that?

[gunplumber]

Well since Tom made some pretty serious accusations about my credibility and competence, I asked him on his forum to identify by simple cut and paste the portions of my review that he considered inaccurate or unfair. I also asked him to reconcile his threaded barrel with the assault weapons ban and his 2 US parts with federal law requiring 7. He first deleted my post then the entire thread. So I guess one can only assume that Olympic sells illegal guns deliberately. Buying an olympic arms FAL may be a federal felony and get you 10 years in the federal penitentiary. This is evil and wrong. Tom S. is deliberately concealing the criminal activity of Olympic Arms by deleting posts that seek to clarify their position. If this doesn't piss you off, I don't know what will.

[comp1911]

:mad:

Yes it does. No more Oly products for me.

What pisses me off is that I have defended this jerk in the past. :rolleyes:

Oh well, live and learn.

[DWS]

Too bad BATF doesn't know of Oly's illegal AW manufacturing practices. ;)

[JJH]

Let me tell you about my extended horror story with Olympic Arms and Tom Spithaler. I ordered a pair of AR15 PCR Carbines from them immediately before the enactment of the 1994 ban. When I received them one seemed fine, but the other would not accept any brand of magazine. I marked the interfering area inside the mag well with red paint and returned the carbine. It arrived back in about a week and a half with a note indicating that it had been repaired and test fired. I noticed that the area in the mag well still had the red paint and I then tried a U.S. GI issue mag and it would not seat. I then tried every mag I had and several from a friend that we had been using successfully in other rifles for years to no possitive result. I then broke out the dremel and fixed the problem area and all was well. I then decided to replace the barrel on the other carbine with a 20" rifle barrel and it shot well. I later decided to re-install the original carbine barrel only to find that it functioned fine, but left a nice 360 degree doughnut around the bottleneck of every case fired. I then sent it to Olympic along with the brass and was informed that in the spirit of the warranty that even though they could not duplicate the problem that was indicated by the brass and barrel that I had returned, they would replace it. Six months later I am still waiting for my receiver and barrel assembly. I am then informed that they have "misplaced it". They suddenly find it and replace the barrel with a NM SS version, at no extra charge and return it, all is well. I then purchase for a customer an OA 93, the last they have, and deliver it to my customer only to find that it won't chamber any brand of ammo. We manage to shoot a total of 20 rounds, single shot, and then loose all patience and then return it to them for warranty repair. The pistol returns with a $200 COD and a note indicating that it was not in warranty due to excessive firing. 20 rounds, excessive firing? At that point I decided that this company, despite excellent products that I had received a few years prior was no longer reputiable. All the time Tom Spithaler emails me telling me that it was not his product, but my customers abuse. BULLSHIT!!

Gunplumbers review or their FAL 2000 was more than fair.

[C1A1]

The stories are a familiar ones, they sell garabge, deny you bought it complete, you spend $$ getting a good smith to fix it...been there, wish I had Tom's reply to me regarding my CAR AR.

[Tenderfoot]

I have never bought a piece of OLY gear, so I'm more than greatful to you Gunplumber and the rest of the FALfiles gang for putting this information out where everyone can read and heed it's meaning! I have Gunplumber's tape and book and I gather from both that this man knows what he is talking about!
Thanks again all!
I'm sorry to say that Bob Hesse now has some well deserved competition!
TF

[Rifleman44]

Tenderfoot, I'll second that. The FALfiles have been a Godsend to me. Dealing with folks like Gunplumber, Dan @ VOW, Lippy, Rhineland1, and all the other 'smiths and vendors (99.999% of them) who care more about helping you find the right path, supplying you with quality service and supplies, and being very open to spend a little time with you answering questions and giving guidance.

The folks on this Board are not the "take your money & don't bother me anymore" types like you seem to find in large numbers at gunshows.

And a big thanks to members who visit this Board recreationally, but are willing to share their experiences, warn us about those to avoid, and are a tremendous resource and reserve of information.

[Ross]

Yeah, I posted a review of my Oly FAL that I received directly from the factory to my dealer. The review's been scrapped because it was too long ago. To make a long story short it was junk and the most ameturish build I've ever seen. It was also dangerous as it completely swallowed my "field" gauge. Through the help of some great folks here at the FAL Files to get some parts, and burning up my Dremel, and ALOT of hand file work, and..... it now is safe and functions 100%. It also looks decent as I've removed the paint from the top cover, which was perfectly parked underneath :confused: Anyway it looks pretty good on the outside, and not to shabby, though a bit bare metal in spots, on the inside. The sights still aren't close, and never will be. I'm going with optics anyway just because I've never had a scoped FAL, so I might as well do this one. I've made it 922(r) compliant by a longshot.

I had the option of sending it back to Oly to get fixed, and to be honest, I felt more comfortable fixing it myself. I've seen a few of the same rifles lately, and they look better than mine did. Much better. Still, I have no intention of ever buying an Olympic Arms product again, nor will I ever recommend them to anyone. I would buy another Century gun in a heartbeat before another Oly.

Ross

[Tony.]

I also have had problems with Olympic. I wanted to have 9x19mm stamped on a receiver so I can have a dedicated 9mm AR. When I called I was given the following options:

Option 1: $15 and they would stamp 9x19mm on the opposite side of the mag well. (The blank side)

Option 2: $50 and they would stamp 9x19mm on the receiver instead of stamping 5.56mm (The "correct" place, under th S/N)

I chose Option 2 and paid the $50. After waiting several months for delivery the receiver shows up and guess what. I was charged for Option 2, but the delivered Option 1.

I looked at the copy of the purchase order and I could see why an error was made. The sales rep charged me for Option 2, but in the intructions he just wrote:

Stamp 9x19mm on the receiver

I figured no big deal, I will just call Tom S. He told me to send it back and that he will take a look at it. I called Tom again after he received the return, and boy was I in for a suprise. He said that it was my error for not providing appropriate blueprints, and that I would be charged for the additional machining cost! WTF! It was his sale rep that screwed up, it was obvious that he knew what I wanted since he charged me for it.

He said that he would send it to the return department to see how much it would cost.

It took them 8 months to return my corrected reciever to me. They never charged me for it, probably because it took so long that they forgot.

The issue isn't money since they didn't charge me. The issue is that Tom blamed the customer for their mistake and tried to charge me.

I will never by an Oly product again. If they would of treated me right I would of bought one of their 9mm uppers. Now I am going to build up a Colt pattern 9mm, even if it cost more.

[Brad/gunthings.com]

After viewing the photos, one would assume that Oly bought Williams preproduction setup rejects (Will we ever have an answer to the mysterious relationship question?) and assembled them into rifles. I am surprised Oly admitted the rifle in the photos was built by them.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Brad/gunthings.com ]

[EMDII]

Perhaps the relationship was similar to CAI's and the rest of the world- Buy a raw un-mcahined blank, and do the finish work. I don't really know either.

I also thought that Dwight had previously addressed the fact/fictions of the Oly/WAC marriage-that-never-was. there was some rather raucous posts, and then Dwight stepped up. End of story?

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]

[Brad/gunthings.com]

I never heard any explanation about the similarities in heritage of the receivers.

The Williams machining looks great, but that Oly rifle is an abomination. It embarrasses me as an American to see the Oly rifle called "Made in USA".

[VoceNoctum]

Originally posted by EMDII:
<STRONG>
I also thought that Dwight had previously addressed the fact/fictions of the Oly/WAC marriage-that-never-was. there was some rather raucous posts, and then Dwight stepped up. End of story?

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]</STRONG>

Actually, a few people started accusing the original poster of working for the enemy, and the question was never answered.

[BB]

The Oly Arms guy is over on the AR15.com board saying that they tested 2 of Williams receivers and they blew up. Check it out:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=68983

[kfeltenberger]

I'm in that cat fight. I thought Oly was a Tier 2 company before, now I'm sure. Slam a product made by a competitor, then when called on the carpet and proof is requested, the newspeak starts.

Now there's someone from Oly in Dumping Brass trying to spin the same party line.

I don't want to hear anecdotes, I don't want to hear "I saw this", I want pictures. Tom S. has admitted on AR15.com that he took "lots" (his words) of pictures.

How hard would it be to post a few and be done with it. All he's doing is making an alread questionable company look worse.

All IMO.

[Gavin]

Well - the real question is...
Mr Williams - is it true?
Or is the Oly rep just a lying sack, trying to divert attention away from the trash he is peddling under the guise of a "FAL" rifle?
I anxiously await your reply.
Regards
Gavin

[Blag]

====Originally posted by kfeltenberger: ... I thought Oly was a Tier 2 company before, now I'm sure. ====

Yeah, for people who buy from Oly it's one tier after another. Tier after tier.

====Slam a product made by a competitor, then when called on the carpet and proof is requested, the newspeak starts.====

Well, y'know, there might be some legal thing, y'know, so the guys from Oly can't provide any facts or details. 'Cause of the legal thing. Y'know.

====Now there's someone from Oly in Dumping Brass trying to spin the same party line.====

What's especially reassuring is that all 3 of the Oly salesmen will vouch for each other. It's like the Clintons vouching for each other.

==== Tom S. has admitted on AR15.com that he took "lots" (his words) of pictures.====

But the dog ate them.

====All he's doing is making an alread questionable company look worse.====

Which is quite an achievement when you're talking about Oly.

[Rifleman44]

This Oly outfit unjustly bad-mouthed the Gunplumber and now they are now apparently launching into Williams. When you can't defend your own product, it is an old trick to divert people's attention.

I will repeat for Oly's sake:

I WILL NEVER, REPEAT NEVER, BUY ANY OF YOUR PRODUCTS.

Coming from one person won't mean anything to you, but if others chose to do as I have done, you might feel the impact. Why don't you show that your man enough not to bad mouth other people?

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Rifleman44 ]

[kfeltenberger]

Originally posted by Blag:
<STRONG>====Originally posted by kfeltenberger: ... I thought Oly was a Tier 2 company before, now I'm sure. ====

Yeah, for people who buy from Oly it's one tier after another. Tier after tier.

====Slam a product made by a competitor, then when called on the carpet and proof is requested, the newspeak starts.====

Well, y'know, there might be some legal thing, y'know, so the guys from Oly can't provide any facts or details. 'Cause of the legal thing. Y'know.

====Now there's someone from Oly in Dumping Brass trying to spin the same party line.====

What's especially reassuring is that all 3 of the Oly salesmen will vouch for each other. It's like the Clintons vouching for each other.

==== Tom S. has admitted on AR15.com that he took "lots" (his words) of pictures.====

But the dog ate them.

====All he's doing is making an alread questionable company look worse.====

Which is quite an achievement when you're talking about Oly.</STRONG>

Damn, Blag! Warn me next time, would ya? Coca-Cola through the nose is painful and tends to ruin keyboards!
:D

[SP10]

I've looked at an OLY FAL at a recent gunshow. Painful. Words don't quite describe it. I've also had the pleasure of shooting a friend's ARS-built para. I know where I would send my business, no question or comparison. That para would make me trade in my DSA carbine in a heartbeat.

[toaster]

if he is building non 922 guns, this guys greed to lead to some NY, MA, or CA politico to pass a "kit gun" bill...

if money is what you love than you'll get none of mine... :mad:

[Mad Dog 7.62]

Don't know anything about Olympic regarding FN's, but I had an Oly CAR-15 years ago...after I replaced about half the parts with Colt, it actually worked....most of the time. :eek: Not something to trust your life with! I couldn't unload that sucker fast enough, which is what I should have done before I put more money in a black hole!! :mad:
Whoever got it....sorry!! ;)

[Lukejt]

I ordered a preban AR15 lower made by SGW. That's what Olympic used to be called. What a pos. My custom Bushy upper would not fit. Mags were loose as heck. Finish and quality were lacking to say the least. I went to my local gun shop and played with his AR's until I found one with an upper that fit the damn thing. Bought that AR and used the lower on my Bushy upper. Sold the SGW (Olympic) ASAP. Happy camper. Lost out on that deal, but at least I don't own an Olympic anymore. ;) At least they look better than the Hesse AR I just saw. So does an Airsoft AR for that matter. :p I still don't understand why they would lie about the Williams upper blowing up. I won't be buying anything from Olympic again.


Lukejt

[zoom]

Oly less than honest? Oly rude? That's just the way they operate. You buy from them, because they are cheaper, then you get what you pay for. When you press them to make it right, they resort to personal attacks. No new news here.

I bought a cast lower and kit from them. Except for two small problems, I'm very happy with it. The fit and finish are as good as any other AR I've looked at. The upper and lower fit together very tightly with no play. I can't see well enough or keep my hands still enough (I'm 73 w/ a mild case of Parkinson's), so I can't comment on the accuracy, but a friend that I let borrow it, raved about it.

The first of the two problems is that the lower isn't marked as cast. The serial number doesn't start with an SGW. If I was less than honest, I could rip-off someone. Secondly, the bolt won't close over an inserted magazine. After swapping around parts with two other rifles, it appears that it's the lower that is out of spec. Tom at Oly has refused to replace it. So, I have a very expensive single-shot rifle.z

[Lukejt]

Zoom, I've got a cast Essential Arms lower. I like it a lot. No seems and the finish is nice. It's got all Bushy parts and it runs and looks great. I don't think that cast lowers are as bad as a lot of people make out.

Lukejt

[kfeltenberger]

Here's a twist to the required US parts count in the Oly FAL. I posed the question directly to Tom at OLY arms on the AR15.com thread that dealt with his claims about the Williams receiver. Here is part of his response:

+++++
As far as the FAL parts that are US manufactured, I honestly do not know. If you call here and ask for me, I'll hook you up with the gentleman that assembles our FALs here at the factory and we'll get your questions answered. But remember this, and this is a little known fact; parts only have to be modified 30% to be considered "US manufactured". I do not know if that applies to any of the FAL parts we use or not.
+++++

Is this true? If so, how do you modify a part by at least 30% and still have it be to spec and the same part as when you started?


:confused:

[gunplumber]

Sounds like Tom Spinmeister is playing his same old game. The point is moot. There were no US parts on this gun other than the pistol grip and receiver. Unless he considers spraypainting a part to make it suddenly US made.

What Tom is probably referring to is a policy ATF has had on remanufacture stating that "significantly modified from original configuration" constitutes remanufacturing. Ergo excise tax is due again. Uberti sued ATF on this and won IIRC, as they were embellishing an existing firearm with engraving and precious metals and ATF claimed excise tax was due as they were "remanufacturing". The flip side of this would be, of course, that significantly modifying any firearm part from its original configuration is remanufacturing and thus it becomes US made. I don't think spraypaint counts.

Once again, the point is moot. Olympic Arms deliberately sold - factory direct - to my customer, a firearm that is a felony to manufacture or posess. It has an illegal "barrel threaded to accept a flashider" in violation of the 94 AW Ban, and it has "more than ten imported parts," a further felony violation of the 1989 import ban.

The quality of the receiver is pathetic. The assembly is poor. Either of which is forgivible if the company made any effort to improve the product. We all have a learning curve. But the equivocating of Olympic Arms and Tom Spinmeister, deliberately foisting an illegal product on an unsuspecting customer, attempting to discredit the reporter and in fact deleting any posts that ask tough questions, forever identifies the company as the criminal bottom-feeders that they are.

[EMDII]

I know of no BATF interpretation citing 30% as the 'qualifying' amount of modification. AS GP sez, 'substantially modified' applies to complete firearms, not parts.

Please see the the ATF on-line at:

2000 ATF reference guide (http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm)

From there, you may also search the ATF site. The only reference I could find to 30% was in discussions concerning flammables and explosives.

[ November 28, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]

[kfeltenberger]

Thanks guys, this confirms my thoughts. If it steams like sh*t, smells like sh*t, then it's probably sh*t.

Then the question becomes, how do these bozos stay in business?

[kfeltenberger]

Looks like Tom from Oly doesn't want to answer questions about his T48-2000. Rather than delete the thread like he did to GP's question on his own board, he just locked this one:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=68983

[Double G Gunsmithing]

Dear All,

I can tell you this, as far as since I have been here at Williams Arms.

We make NOTHING for Olympic Arms. I have seen
NO old invoices around, nothing in our Customer Data Base, nothing to do with Oly.

They have called several times wanting us to make parts for them, we have refused EVERY time, period.

Sounds like sour grapes.

And NO !! That rec in the review with Oly's name on it is NOT ours :eek:

So you all can take it from there.

Sincerely, George L. Gouger
Willaims Arms Co.

[Gage]

And to think I was so close to ordering one of their AR15 lowers for my TAPCO M16 kit. FAC is selling them. Do you suppose these are their seconds/rejects (Do they even have firsts?).

Thanks for the heads up, fellas. They won't get my business.

Any suggestion on a quality lower now? Bushy, Colt? :confused:

[Double G Gunsmithing]

Dear Gage,

Go with a Bushmaster lower if you want std GI
hammer / pin dia.

Colt went to larger dia. pins when their "Sporter Style" AR was introduced. This was done so their lowers would no longer accept standard GI parts for use in a "Civillian" lower.

Both are real good, just wanted you to be aware of the diff.

Sincerely, George L. Gouger
Life Member NRA Since 1969 www.doubleggunsmithing.com (http://www.doubleggunsmithing.com)

[ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: Double G Gunsmithing ]

[Gage]

Thanks much.

Bushmaster it is.

[zoom]

Lukejt, I didn't mean to say that I had a problem with cast lowers in general. I don't, because I intentionally bought one. I also bought a cast Hesse FAL receiver. My particular lower from Oly is out of spec. I didn't mean that as a condemnation of cast parts in general. When I ordered from Oly, I specifically asked for a cast lower, and I only paid $72 shipped it. That was over $50 less than what they wanted for the forged receiver. For nearly twice the price, I don't consider the extra strength worth it.

I said I had a problem with the fact that it isn't marked as cast. When you go to Oly's site, they have a page that describes how to tell if one of their receivers is cast. According to it, my receiver is forged. That was my point.z

[Ross]

My original review on my OLY FAL was deleted by the admins in order to save space. I didn't want to bother putting it up again, but it's probably be worth doing now. I didn't copy the original post, so I'll go from front to back of the gun and just observe.

I bought my OLY FAL directly from the manufacturer. The price was good, and I wanted a "beater" metric FAL so I bought it. It arrived quickly to my dealer's shop with no problems. Service from my dealer has always been extraordinary and I was pleased.

Parkerizing was even throughout. There was an odd crackle paint on the top cover and the furniture.

The muzzle brake was permanently attatched. I don't see any welds or pins, but it isn't coming off by hand anytime soon. There is residue that resmbles epoxy or accraglas on the barrel/brake area.

The barrel is military without bipod cuts. The gas block is low sight. The handguards were gouged and scratched and painted with the "black crackle" which I think looks shabby. I'd rather have scratches and gouges. The barrel is timed correctly, being straight vertically. The top cover is also painted. I removed the paint and found it to be reparked perfectly underneath! Go figure, but it looks loads better now.

The upper is an inch style. Inch charging handle cut, but with metric handle. Inch mag cut. Type one/inch lightening cuts, but no sand cuts in the receiver. The lower is unremarkable surplus. The pistol grip and buttstock were also painted to hide scratches.

The bolt and carrier were an abomination. The rifle swallowed a field reject guage. I looked at the bolt, and it had been filed upon. All over it. The facets on the rear that mate to the carrier had been rounded off (i.e. no longer truly flat). I found that a pretty odd way to attempt to adjust headspace on a FAL, so I tried a bolt and carrier out of one of my other FALs. The un-modified bolt and carrier would not travel in the upper. It seems that the upper was out of spec and the bottom of the bolt would strike the locking shoulder and prevent travel. Apparently the bolt carrier was modified so that it would clear the locking shoulder and actually run.

I had shot the gun before testing the headspace and it would not function. I had difficulty extracting, along with all the other signs of excess headspace (like bulging cases) and that's what caused me to check the headspace. Well, it didn't blow-up.

I purchased a bolt and carrier off the board here and replaced the locking sholder so it would headspace correctly. The locking shoulder was sticking up visibly above the floor of the upper. I planed down the top of the shoulder by hand(not the locking surface itself). The combination of the new parts and the hand fitting left me with a perfectly headspaced FAL. I had examined the gun for a few days to decide how to proceed, and everything fits now. Apparently the rails for the bolt carrier are too low.

I shot the gun a second time and it functioned perfectly. I examined the fired cased, fit of all the pieces and measued the headspace again and everything was still good to go.

Bullet holes were way low and to the right. Full down front sight would not correct it enough. Full left windage was not enough to correct for the right bullet holes. Upon closer examination it became obvious that the lower was off-axis (i.e. to the right) of the bore line. Also the lower was not being held all the way up. It locks in fine, but you can see daylight between the upper and lower that starts at the bottom and grows larger at the top. I can only surmize that the hole for the pivot pin is drilled incorrectly. When you look at the gun from the back, you can see more of the upper on the left than the right, and the lower is visibly not parrellel to the upper. The lower locks-up fine, and mates completely to the bottom of the upper. I decided that I would use an Inch rear sight to give me the extra height, and leave it folded as an emergency back-up. I bought a TAPCO base and threw a scope on there, so I don't have to worry about the sights.

I did find more US parts than GP. The lower had three US parts in them. I assume they are US, because they are cast and not anything like any FAL part I've seen (and I've built about 6-7 FALS). That gave me a total of 5 US parts (H/T/S, upper, muzzle brake). The gas piston was surplus and junk.

I replaced the furniture with the TAPCO plastic set, giving me three more US parts for a total of 8 (more than enough), and making the rifle look a hell of a lot better as well. I replaced the gas piston with a near new surplus one I had switched out on an earlier gun.

All in all, the only glaring problems were the reciever being junk, and the assembly being amateurish. Mine looked better than the one GP reviewed, and some of the newer ones I've seen look better than mine. Still, I would not recommend an OLY rifle or receiver to anyone for now. The price difference is not worth the headaches. I now have about as much in the gun as a DSA kitgun would have cost.

I didn't give OLY's customer service a chance in this. I didn't even bother to contact OLY. The reason for this is I felt better about doing the work myself after seeing how it was done by them. Also their poor customer service is legendary, so I didn't even bother. I suppose it wasn't fair to them to not give them a chance to fix it, but that was my choice.

I have not shot it with the scope on, but I intend to do so this weekend and I will report back.

Ross

[Sailor553]

George/Dwight,

Wanna settle this?

Manufacture a Williams AR receiver.

[mgroves]

I just ordered DSA G1 kit. Thanks for the Oly warning... ;)

[Templator]

You're being more diplomatic than I would be, Gunplumber,.. yes, we all have a learning curve,.... but a company shouldn't start selling their wares until the learning curve has been mastered.

The only bright spot I see in the Oly situation is "at least there's ONE firearm manufacturer out there who isn't intimidated by liability concerns!",...but in this case,.. he damned well should be. Somebody somewhere is going to blow up one of those pieces of dung eventually,... when they do, the lawyers will be throwing elbows at each other as they race to get there first.

[Blackmore]

That's right, Templator. The media will follow right after the lawyers to tar the entire firearms industry because Olympic chose to manufacture and sell an unsafe and illegal weapon. It could also reinvigorate city sponsored lawsuits againt the industry, setting back the recent victories the firearms manufacturers have had in these actions.