Breaking into a "gunsafe" (video)

[TKTM]

Recently I have had a chance to go over the actual UL specs for various "safe" ratings and thought I would share. I also happened to run across a video of people breaking into a gun safe and thought it might be informative too.

First most "gun safes" are actually "residential security containers (RSC)". The spec they fall under is UL1037, which happens to be a spec for alarm systems and such, NOT safes. RSC's have to meet the following conditions to get the ratings: It takes longer than 5 minutes to make a hand sized hole anywhere on the gunsafe, or get the door open with in 5 minutes. If the safe is designed to be attached to a wall or floor, it must be so attached for the test. The attacker can only use hand tools that are not longer than 1.5 feet. No cutting tools are allowed. The hammer can't weigh more than 3 lbs. The only power tool allowed is a 1/4 inch electric drill.

The UL spec for "real" safes is UL 687. they have ratings like TL-15 and TL-30.
They are tool resistant safes that resist the making of a 2 finger diameter hole in the door(or front frame) for 15 or 30 minutes respectively (or getting the door open in that time frame). For the tl-15 the tools used are common hand tools, pry bars (max 5 foot long), 1/2 inch drills, grind points and such. The TL-30 has the same tools but adds an 8 inch electric cutting wheel.


here is a video of a couple of guys at a safe shop breaking into a cheap "gunsafe". Im not sure if it is rated as a RSC, but I wager that it is.

(DSL) http://www.thompsonsafes.com/soshigh.htm
(modem) http://www.thompsonsafes.com/sosdail.htm


Here are some observations about the topic in general.
If you have a RSC, make sure its bolted to the floor or wall.
If possible, put it in a closet so the bad guys can't get leverage against the door or attack the vulnerable sides with a cutting wheel.
A good RSC (properly located) with an alarm system is probably more cost effective than laying big bucks out for a real safe.
Some body with a "quick cut" concrete type saw is going to make real short work of your RSC.

My advise.
If you get an RSC make sure it has ATLEAST 10 gauge walls.
Try and find out what kind of steel is used, there is good 10 gauge and cheap 10 gauge.
Get locking bolts that are atleast 2 inches long.
Don't use fire ratings to compare 1 company's safe against another company's safe, there is no real standard here and even just a plain steel box will give about 20min of "protection" from fire start up till it reaches 1200F.
Remember that it is the door that sells a sucker the safe, compare the door on this expensive Fort Knox RSC against the door on a real safe.

http://www.ftknox.com/gun-safe-images/open-gun-safe.jpg


http://www.thompsonsafes.com/DBLinterior.jpg

one would be surprised how relatively crappy the bolt works look on a real safe compared to that fort knox. And don't forget its not how THICK a door is (a lot of that is drywall) its how much STEEL is in there.

[Frank Pinelander]

There's always a way in... ;-)


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[Carp Killer]

Good tips. Bolt it to the floor in a place the scum can't get leverage.

It helps to have good security layers too. Like living outside of high crime/big city areas, disassociating with criminal/druggy family members, good gun nut neighbors willing to watch your place, mean dogs, hidden security cameras and anonymity(no NRA stickers etc).

[wonderdog451]

I can personally attest to having a safe stolen. I had mine for only 6 hours and had'nt even had a chance to bolt it down before my scumbag brother broke in and stole the entire thing. I would also mention that he was seen doing this as I had been called into work and the Detroit Police Department told me it was my fault for having them in the first place and he was never charged?!

[Wildcat]

There is just something about using explosives to solve a problem. :D

Widcat

[Bama]

I had to break into my Ft. Knox, all it took was a 1/2 inch drill, a tape measure, a big punch, and a BFH.
It was just too easy, but hopefully the sleaze that tries it next won't know exactly where to apply these tools.

BAMA

[Skilter]

Put 1 gallon jugs of water on top in rows. These will melt during the fire and cool the steel. It is just as good as fire protection for guns. It is not the fire that destroys, it is the heat radiation coming through the metal of the safe. The jugs will buy more time in hopes the FD will arrive and put it out, but no home based safe is "fire proof". This was told to me by a safe manufacturer that actually sold fireproof safes. He said that they are kind of a waste of money, but that people want them. YMMV

[Quake Guy]

Unless you have a garbage safe like the one shown in the video, going through the door is the last thing you want to do. Many safes don't have fully welded seams and an attack with a sledge and maul can pop them.

Best to have a double liner. Even with a torch, it will take a while to go through that. If you want to spend the really big bucks, get a stainless liner that is torch resistant.

[Azrial]

The mistake I see most people make is to leave it out in the open once they get one. A steel door frame and and solid or steel home entry doors will do a lot to prevent the causal kick-in type burglary that we are all most likely to face.

[Wildcat]

I guess its worth pointing out that a safe is merely a strongbox (even the fine examples in the photos above). They are rarely intended to be impenetrable. The typical safe is supposed to be part of a larger security plan.

A safe's sole purpose is to delay access. Be it fire, a burglar or a 5yr old kid, the safe is intended to protect the contents long enough for help to arrive and stop the attack before access is attained.

A box by itself may look imposing to you but a crook sees a treasure chest (whether or not it contains anything of real value).
A friend of mine was burglarized. It was a simple smash and grab but the bad guys apparently noted that he had a safe. About a month after the break-in, the goblins came back again with tools and went to work peeling the top off the box. They didn't finish their work but he still lost a couple of handguns. A safe without an alarm system to back it up offers marginal protection against a determined (or prepared) crook.

Your bank does have a safe. They have an even better alarm system.

Wildcat

[TKTM]

Originally posted by Bama
I had to break into my Ft. Knox, all it took was a 1/2 inch drill, a tape measure, a big punch, and a BFH.
It was just too easy, but hopefully the sleaze that tries it next won't know exactly where to apply these tools.

BAMA

did it take longer than 6 minutes to get the job done?

[deerollman]

i was robbed recently and the safe issue came up . one thing that i thought of (or was ti me?): if your real safe can be hidden, by a much cheaper strongbox and put it in plain sight. if you have an overflow, put your cheapest stuff there. if not, rig it with a pepper grenade (havent quite figured this out yet, maybe this summer...)

[2barearms]

I'm in a vault manufacturing venture and can tell you that the rating
for fire on the best safes is 1600 @ 90 minutes. a typical house fire
rarely lasts 2 hrs. Steel starts to melt at around 2300 degrees anyway.
The idea of using a decoy is a good idea if you have a security system
and cameras. The most irresistable thing to a burglar is locked door,
the only reason you lock a door is to secure valuables. I'll be launching
a new product in a few weeks that will offer a way to secure a large
collection of just about anything. The post about drilling the door is
most likely using the directions from the maufacturer and think about it
you do want to be able to get it open if the bad guys remove the dial
or keypad. If you use a torch you risk setting the contents on fire. There
are other ways to get into gunsafes but it wouldn't be prudent to discuss
it here.

[ftierson]

It's an interesting video clip...

I'd like it even more without the hour long sales pitch preceeding the safe footage...

(OK, so I exaggerated the amount of video time before the safe footage a little...)

:)

Forrest

[JPB]

I'd like to get a closer look at that safe they popped open. Interestingly, they aren't letting you get a good close look at it. I know that the paint where the UL tag is placed is different the external paint. Do you think that it's even the same safe?

[Bama]

I didn't drill the door, that's the thickest and toughest part. It did take longer than six minutes, much longer, I'd never done it before and I had Fort Knox on the phone. Some friends and I made an occasion out of it. But I could do it now pretty quick, I think, maybe say, 15 minutes. Maybe faster.
I wouldn't want to post directions how to easily open my safe online. If you need to get in yours, and there's not a someone they can hire within a hundred miles, your manufacturer will probably be telling you too.

BAMA

[TKTM]

I would say that is pretty good, the standard is based on an expert with blueprints to the safe. So 15minutes in the real world (with directions) sounds about right.

[TKTM]

Originally posted by JPB
I'd like to get a closer look at that safe they popped open. Interestingly, they aren't letting you get a good close look at it. I know that the paint where the UL tag is placed is different the external paint. Do you think that it's even the same safe?

I think they disguised it because they sell that safe, look at the safes in the back ground, appears to be the same manufacturer.