160 gr RN 9mm load

[Brush511]

Years ago I aquired several thousand 160 gr. cast Rn bullets in a deal involving a Dillion 550. The guy had been an IPSC shooter and was loading them in a .38 Super. I don't have a Super. So, I used some in .357 Mag. and .38 Spl. even though they are sized .356. They work OK for plinking and seem to bump up enough to be fairly accurate. Now I have a 9mm carbine and was wondering about using them up in it. I have several (maybe a dozen) different loading manuals but can't find any data for bullets heavier than 147-150 grs. Has anybody got some reliable data they could share for 160 gr. bullets in a 9mm Para?

Thanks in advance,
Dave

[whirlibird]

I was just going through my back issues of Handloader and Rifle magazines and saw an article on heavy bullets in the 9mm. I'll go back through and see what I can find for you.

[Brush511]

Thanks Whirlibird. Hope you can find it.

Dave

[kycrawler]

what kind of 9 mm carbine ? that would make a big differance as to accsptable pressures

[Brush511]

It is an Oly AR upper I picked up at a recent show. Its blowback, so I would think I have to be careful as far overloading. I'm also concerned that the length of the bullet will cause problems. If I seat them to a normal 9mm overall length, the base of the bullet may be seated to deep (down into the web of the case). I'll make up a dummy and try to tell.

Dave

[IO_Joe]

IMI used to (or still does?) make a 158 grain subsonic load for the 9x19, so it is plausible to load 160s, assuming that they fit in the case with an acceptable OAL.

You'll likely need to use a light charge of a quick burning powder like 231 due to limited case capacity.

[Brush511]

Thanks for the reply Joe. Did some measuring this morning and they will seat deep enough to be under published max. overall length. With the bullets seated there is only .27" of space left in the case. I had the same thought that I'd have to use a quicker powder, just not much powder space left.

Dave

[Brush511]

Worked on this project over the weekend. 1st thing I noticed was most manuals dropped 231 when they moved up from 130 gr. bullets to 147. That made me concerned that fast of powder would be hyper sensitive to any small changes in seating depth, powder charge, etc. Next I started thinking about powder density. So I weighed a given volume (in this case a .32acp case) of all the powders that I had in a suitable burning range. I weighed 231, Unique,
HS-6, HS-7, AA #7, and Bluedot. AA #7 was the most dense. So, using Accurate's manual #1, I used the 147 gr. stating load (6.5 grs.) as my theoretical max for the 160 gr. bullets. Took an approx. 20% decrease and started at 5.0 grs. I load 1 each at 5.0, 5.5, 6.0, and 6.5. Shot them 1 at a time with 1 round under them in the mag. to check for function and making shure the bullet cleared the barrel. Using primer appearance and ejection distance as pressure indicators, I worked through all four. I don't think 6.5 grs. was max. (ejection was snappy) but I want this load to plink with. I think the weapon would function reliably at 5.0 grs. but cases only ejected about 3 ft. Finely settled on 5.5 grs. and loaded 10. Took them to the range and chronoed them today.

10 shots
mean vel. 994 fps.
Ext. spread 54 fps.
std. dev. 16 fps.
Temp 16 deg F.

I think I'm happy. :biggrin:


I appreciate everyone's input

Dave

[daschnoz]

Originally posted by Brush511

Finely settled on 5.5 grs. and loaded 10. Took them to the range and chronoed them today.

10 shots
mean vel. 994 fps.
Ext. spread 54 fps.
std. dev. 16 fps.
Temp 16 deg F.

I think I'm happy. :biggrin:


I appreciate everyone's input

Dave

1. I assume that's 5.5gr of AA#7......:?

2. You may want to drop 1/2 grain and re-test when the weather gets warm (65ºF or so). 16ºF is quite cold. Loads developed in winter run at higher pressure in the heat of summer than they did in the cold days of winter.

[Brush511]

Thanks for the input daschnoz.

Yes it was AA #7. I also was concerned about the temperature, thats why I backed off 1 gr. from 6.5 to 5.5 of AA #7. Although, the rifle and the ammo were warmer than 16 deg. I kept them in the pickup untill I was ready to shoot.
I'm a farmer and ussually try to get most of my reloading done in the winter since I don't have much spare time the rest of the year. Any extra time then and I'd rather go shooting :biggrin: . Max. loads I do test at higher temps. Have you ever experimented with heating ammo and weapons to simulate higher temps? I read an article years ago where the writer did that. I can't remember his results other than some powders were more effected than others. I may have to try that some timeand see if I can come to some predictable conclutions.

Thanks again,

Dave

[daschnoz]

I haven't experimented with doing that, but I plan to. I'll get some of those hand warmers and throw them in the ammo can before I leave for the range. That should be enough to keep the ammo at least at room temperature, if not warm it up a bit. I don't know how much the temperature of the gun effects things for the short time the round is in contact with the chamber. If nothing else, a couple of minimum loads should warm things up. :D

I have read that some of the newer powders are less temperature sensitive then the "old standbys", but I tend to be kind of old school with certain things - guitar must be Les Paul, amp must be 100% tube, ammo must be loaded to mil spec with as close to mil components as possible ie. CCI #34, IMR-4895 and BL-C(2).

[whirlibird]

Found it.
American Rifleman Oct 1981
Ballistics data from CCI/Speer
CCI 550 primers

RCBS 150KT .357" 3.0 B'eye 1.015" oal 962fps 27970 cup

Speer 158gr .358"lswc 3.0 B'eye 1.00" oal 930fps 28720 cup

Speer 158gr .358"lswc 3.7 Unique 1.00" oal 899fps 25940 cup

Speer 158ge JSP .357" 3.5 B'eye 1.070" oal 928fps 27380 cup

Speer 158gr JHP .357" 4.0 B'eye 1.070" oal 1012fps 30180 cup

Hope this helps. Despite it being late.

[Brush511]

Thanks whirlibird. I don't have any Bullseye right now but I have some Unique to try.

[Artful]

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/355Cal(9mm)/9mm%2019%20P%20pages%2091%20to%2092.pdf

145 (Lead bullet RN ) 1.140" Over length
starting
No. 2 powder 3.9grains 845 FPS

Max
No. 2 powder 4.3 grains 956 FPS
31000 cup

Starting
No. 5 powder 4.6 grains 866 FPS
MAX
No. 5 powder 5.1 grains 984 FPS
26800 CUP

Starting
No. 7 powder 6.5 grains 926 FPS
MAX
No. 7 powder 7.2 grains 1052 FPS
29500 CUP

Gun OBERMEYER TEST BBL. Barrel length 4"
Case Max length 0.754"
Case Min length 0.744
Primer Win SP
Case Federal

[Brush511]

Thanks Artful. I saw that data and used my AA manual to extrapolate the AA #7 data I used. It is always easier to extrapolate down( i.e. 168 gr. data when trying to load 150 gr.), you know that your starting load won't be to hot.

[Artful]

Win
130 gr. SIE FMJ___231 1.120" 4.3 978fps 25,300 CUP 4.6 1050fps 28,300 CUP
147 gr. LEAD CFP_WSF 1.169" 3.7 905fps 28,500 PSI 4.1 965fps 32,800 PSI
147 gr. FMJ______WSF 1.169" 3.9 895fps 28,400 PSI 4.3 950fps 32,300 PSI
147 gr. JHP______WSF 1.169" 4.0 900fps 30,100 PSI 4.3 935fps 32,300 PSI

145 grain Lead RN (Round Nose)
Bullseye 3.5 gr. 942 FPS
Unique 3.8 gr. 1,108
HS6 5.0 gr. 968
No. 2 3.7 gr. 893
No. 5 5.1 gr. 984
No. 7 7.2 gr. 1,052
WSF 3.9 gr. 961
-----------------------------------------
147 grain FMJ or JHP
Bullseye 4.2 gr. 1,010 FPS
Unique 4.4 gr. 1,010
Universal 3.7 gr. 851
HS6 6.0 gr. 973
No. 2 4.0 gr. 888
No. 5 5.3 gr. 991
WSF 4.3 gr. 935
WAP 4.7 gr. 964
HP-38 3.5 grs. 818 to 825 fps (contributed by a friend)