Press Upgrade Q Dillon products

[DYNOMIKE]

Dillon 550, or 650? Pro's and Con's please..

I think it's time for an Upgrade with my Presses..
I have been using a DILLON RL450 for a long time. It is a Great little machine for all my Pistol needs, but kinda slow for rifles as I use it in conjunction with a REDDING single stage press.
The VOLUME of either press will be sufficiant just want to see if the 650 is worth the X-TRA Money?
Any comments would be welcomed..
THANX:beer:

[Survey Punk]

My 550 does everything I could want. A 650 would only be icing on the cake.

JB

[gunsmith_tony]

Well, the 650 is a good machine...I've heard. I don't actually have one. I upgraded my RL450 to a 550 several years ago.
The 650 has auto-indexing, and I'm sure that extra station can be handy as well. An automatic case feed can also be used with it. But then, Dillon now offers an auto case feed for the 550 as well.
I guess it just depends on how much you want to load...and how quickly you want to load it.

[gunplumber]

Originally posted by DYNOMIKE69
Dillon 550, or 650? Pro's and Con's please..

I think it's time for an Upgrade with my Presses..
I have been using a DILLON RL450 for a long time. It is a Great little machine for all my Pistol needs, but kinda slow for rifles as I use it in conjunction with a REDDING single stage press.
The VOLUME of either press will be sufficiant just want to see if the 650 is worth the X-TRA Money?
Any comments would be welcomed..
THANX:beer:

I bought a 650, used it for about 4 months, then returned it and bought a 550.


If a cartridge ridn't feed out of the hopper corrrectly and slide into the baseplate rail, the downward thrust of the arm would BEND the baseplate.

It then took 45 minutes to disassemble the entire unit, put the paseplate ina mill vise, rap it with a mallet to straighten it, and 45 minutes to reassemble everything. This would happen every hundred rounds or so.

I also had another irritating problem with it that I don't remember, but the reult was, that when the problem manifested, I'd lose 6 cartridges each in whatever stage of completion, to fix it.

the 550 by contrast doesn't have an auto advance. you thumb it forward which takes no extra time and is easy to do.

But if there is a problem on the 550, you can repeat the stage over and over until its fixed and THEN advance the cartridge.

I do not think the extra automation of the 650 is worth the extra hassel.

Wyhen everything is working fine, its a dream, but when something goes wrong, its a nightmare.

the 550 was a much more user friendly piece, in my opinion.

[DYNOMIKE]

THANX Gents!!
The 550 It will be..
I have NO PROB with the MANUAL index, and Like to be able to BACK things up if needed..

Lets see what SANTA can do??:biggrin:

[shootist87122]

I have a 650 and it can be a pain with very small cases like .223 or 9mm (who would ever want to load 9mm anyway). It works great on .45 ACP and the same shellplate also does my .308 with good results. I don't have the case feed unit. I just fill up the plastic tube thingy by hand (and check weights each time it runs low).

The 1050 is much more reliable and I do have the case feed on it. I set it up for small primer back when I shot a bunch of .40 S&W and .223. Too bad mine is the older verson and won't do .308 size brass. [I shuda asked Santa for a .45 ACP conversion for the 1050!] :cry:

I recommend the 550 for simplicity and have helped set one up with very good results (and the owner was a reloading neubie).

FWIW, the 1050 (or newer Super 1050, I suspect) is a lot slower to do caliber changeovers, especially if you have to change the shellplate or primer systems.

[moses]

Just got a 650 and did 300 or so 308's without a hitch on my first test run.

Man I can't believe
I went this long without a progressive!

Super fast!:love:

[Aifwikir]

I've had a RL550 for close to 20 years. GREAT machine. If you have a 450 you can turn it in and have dillon upgrade it. Not sure what it would cost but it's ccheaper than buying another press out right. Give Dillon a call and see what they can do for you.

:D
Aif

[DJ]

I'm another happy 550B user. I don't know how long I've had my machine, but it's worked well since the first time I took it out of the box.
I have a SDB that auto indexes, and as Gunplumber says, when something goes wrong, that auto-index makes getting things straightened out a real pain.

[gunplumber]

If you're just doing handgun - a row of square deals works great. One in each caliber - except I don't think Dillon ever fixed their defective 9mm dies - they just blame it on the gun.

DUH Its a tapered case - you can't use a carbide ring.

And I still think its stupid they "can't" make a square deal in .30 carbine because its a rifle cartridge, but they can make pistol cartridges the same size.

[Para Driver]

Originally posted by gunplumber
DUH Its a tapered case - you can't use a carbide ring.
Why not use a taper crimp die in the 4th position, are they available for 9mm? That's how I make 45ACP. Works like a champ.

[gunplumber]

Originally posted by Para Driver

Why not use a taper crimp die in the 4th position, are they available for 9mm? That's how I make 45ACP. Works like a champ.

On the 550, yes, I used a reading or an RCBS carbide die where the entire inside was carbide.

on the square deals, it was a proprietary Dillon die with a carbide ring. It would make a bulge at the based of the TAPERED 9mm case (as, of course, the ring wasn't tapered) which dillon blamed on the gun it was being shot out of !!!?????

One bitch (ok, two - I wanted a square deal in 30 carbine) out of years of great products and great service.


maybe they've fixed it. I quit reloading several years ago - not time/cost effective - although with the cost of .308 it may be a gain.

I save my .45 colt and .45-70 brass for my buddy to reload for me - but ebverything else is cheaper to buy in bulk surplus since I don't ENJOY reloading and have to factor in the bvalue of my time.

[perdurabo]

Pistol reloading on a 550 is a dream. Caliber change is very quick if the caliber you are switching to takes the same size primer. Changing the primer setup takes a little while longer.

One thing I DONT like is reloading rifle on the 550 (or any other press for that matter). Case prep for rifle is paiiiiiinfully slow compared to pistol loading. With pistol brass all I have to do is tumble it clean and its ready to put in the press. Tapered rifle rounds have to be prepped so that means manual deprime first so that the primer pocket crimp can be removed, then they have to be manually trimmed (you can avoid this by using RCBS X-dies), and then manually lubed and then and only then you can put them in the press for loading. Bleh. Too damn slow.

It would be very cool if there were a way to out these case prep operations inline as stations. Maybe a primary station that lubes and deprimes on the upstroke and then swages/cleans the primer hole on the down stroke, then another trim station. After that you have the usual size/prime, powder, seating, and then crimp stations. Manual case prep slows down progressive rifle loading waaaay too much.

[FAL4EVER]

Have 'm both, love 'm both.
Can't beat the 650 when making ammo in large batches. Going through a full primer tube (100 pcs) in 6 minutes, no problem. The 650 has a bit more of a learning curve, as it is more complex than the 550. For small batches (caliber conversions) and load development the 550 is easier

[owlcreekok]

Great thread. I have been loading rifle on rock chuckers all this time. I can't figure out how to get past the case prep issues you brought up, perdurabo. It would be way cool to crank out .308 and .223 at progressive rates. I feel like I MUST get the case clean of the lube that is on the outside of the case AND inside the neck BEFORE I start the priming and charging operations. I just can't figure out how to get comfy with that in a progressive. Another thing that stops me is the fact that I clean every single primer pocket before priming. Pistol AND rifle. (call me anal, Lol) This stops the progressive idea as well. Now, having that said, I use an RCBS Green Machine for .45 ACP. I size and decap on the Rock Chuckers, clean the pockets and prime with a Lee Auto prime. THEN I feed the cases into the Green Machine. It cranks out ammo like the wind. RARELY will it have a problem if I pay attention. Once in a while a case will jump the rail when it drops out of the feed tube. Maybe once every 50-75 cases.

I once had a Lee 1000. That was my only experience with a rotating, auto indexing machine. Like GP said, when something screws up, now you have a full rotor of possibly lost cartridges to clear. Besides that the Lee 1000 was an automatic POS in every way. Out of the box it needs the care of someone with a better than average mechanical aptitude to make it work. Modify this, file that, make a new widget for this. I threw the dang thing in a dumpster finally.

I will likely stay single stage with rifle. I WOULD like to have a press to do .38-.357 in faster manner. Maybe a Square Deal.

[Jon Frum]

I have a 550B stitting NIB--I asked the same question. http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185715&highlight=Dillon

[FAL4EVER]

owlcreekok,

I make my 308 on the 550. I dislike the idea of dumping lubed cases in the feeder and having it stick to the inside of the casefeed and the tube. That is, for a semi-auto. For my Lone Eagle 308 I'd use the 650, if I didn't have the conversionkit etc for the 550 already. Especially with necksizing only (Lee Collet die), there's no need for lubing, and one could cranck out 800+ rounds an hour (on a 650). I have one seperate toolhead with a full-sizer, which I use once every 5 or so reloads. That's also when I trim and clean the primer pockets. Btw... I still use the rcbs lube pad. And, but that's me, I don't see any purpose for extreme case-prep for a semi-auto. I tumble, roll 'm over the lube pad and insert 'm into the 550. Again, after 5 or so reloads, I trim and clean primer pockets.
As for the Square Deal and .38/.357: The nice thing is, that you can switch from .38sp to .357m by only swithing toolheads, the dies will stay in the press.
That said, I'd still prefer a 550 for ergonomic reasons. The position of the handle suits me better, it takes less force and there's more room for your left hand to put the bullet on a case.

[owlcreekok]

Okay ! Fal4ever,,,good stuff. I just got off the phone with an old bud who has reloaded many thousands of rounds. Much of it with me helping out. He advised that dillon makes a carbide expander ball that negates the inside neck lube. Learning a lot today !

You answered a question I had about the Square Deal and going from 38 to 357. Still sounds like more trouble (and cost ?) than it is worth. Maybe not. No more 357 than I load, it is moot anyhow.

As was said before, the Dillon web catalog is a mite confusing. I see NO toold listed for .308, .223 and the like. IIRC it says words like "550B and such and such conversion"

WTF ?

Suppose I wanted to get a 550 (sounds like the only Dillon choice for me) and use it for .38, .308 and .223 .

What do I need to buy ? I hope a set of Dillon's $110 dies are not in the mix ! :mad:

Maybe I should just call Dillon onna phone ! ?

ETA: I may have just figured it out. Snooping the Dillon site again, it looks like the 550B and ONE conversion is $370. Each additional conversion, pistol or rifle is another $40. Dies NOT included in any case. So, given my own dies and about $450, I would be set up for .223, .308 and 38-357. I would have to get by the case neck lube with a carbide expander for .223 and .308. As well as get by some anality with the brass prep. Lol

Hmmmm. The two Rock Chuckers out there are paid for. :tongue:

[FAL4EVER]

LOL.... You need to hit the next page many times when you choose the 550 from the main page. They sell it in like 20000 calibers which you have to go through first before you come to the conversionkit pages.
In short: You'd need the press, which comes in one caliber, let's say 38sp, and all you need is the conversionkits for 223 and 308 (40usd each).
That is, assuming you have diesets for the calibers you named. If not, they are 56usd each. And if you have too much money and can't think of anything to spend it on, you can get carbide sizers for your rifle rounds (not just the expander), which still require lubing (120usd each for 3-die set).
You can use any brand of std 7/8" dies, but the Dillons are funnel-shaped at the bottom, which makes operation of a progressive more smooth. You get what you pay for: My 10 year old Dillon dies look the same they did 10 years ago, my Lee dies show rust after 4 months.
Last but not least, the Square Deal only does handgun ammo.

[owlcreekok]

Okay, cool. I have copied and pasted the last few posts (most of the whole thread, actually) and printed it for my cheat sheet folder.

Now to get a thing like this past the House Ways & Means Chairperson.

:rofl:

[shootist87122]

Probably add a complete primer assembly to speed up the conversion from large primer to small. Also spare tool heads so you can set your dies and leave them mounted and set. Also spare powder measures so you don't have to fiddle back n forth there. Also a couple of tool head stands to mount your ready to go-to setups on.

Carbide neck expanders, huh? I de-lube the cases before loading, so I don't see the gain.

[moses]

Here is my take on it

I to this point have only used the 650 to prime, powder charge, seat the bullet and crimp.

It is worth it in time saved loading in my opinion to do this.

This means I size and then tumble to delube, trim and then use the dillon primer crimp swager to get the crimp off the primer hole.

I do however plan on sizing and the whole 9 yds the second time I reload this brass as I have RCBS X dies

But if you have to trim the brass you are gonna have to size seperate from the dillon anyway you look at it.

my $.02

[owlcreekok]

Moses,

That is essentially what I am doing with the Green Machine, sort of. I size-decap and prime off the machine. It makes .45 acp like nobody's biz after that.

[moses]

yeah instead of handling each case 4 more times after I do the prep work

I only have to put the bullet on top of the case and keep pulling the handle:biggrin:

Well worth the money IMHO even if I never size on the dillon

[perdurabo]

Whats the point of removing the lube from the case before loading? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of a progressive press? If youre only using one station and then moving the cases back into the tumbler, you might as well use a single stage press. But more to the point, why tumble the lube off right after sizing?

Why not just tumble or wipe it off after its completely loaded (please dont start another BS argument thread about the horrors of tumbling live rounds)? Better yet why not use a lube like hornady one-shot that dries away on its own and doesnt need to be removed? What exactly is the worst thing that could happen if you don't remove the lube? I shot at least 1000 rounds of German MEN ammo that came on G3 belts that were lubed FAR more thoroughly that any sizer lube through my FALs and M1A and experienced no problems whatsoever. The small amount of residue left by even something like Imperial sizing wax wont be able to cause any perceptible fouling of your chamber even after quite a few rounds, so why bother with all the effort of removing it at all?

[moses]

I don't size them on the dillon I use my single stage RCBS Rock chucker

You have to trim the rifle brass after you size it so you can't size on the progressive unless you do not have to trim it or decrimp the primer hole

That is why I said I will be sizing them in the dillon the second time I reload them because I have already decrimped the primer hole & trimmed the brass and am using the RCBS X dies that supposedly keep the brass from needing to be trimmed after doing the inital trim.

I use one shot but can still feel the lube on the cases after they are sized.

But will not delube them when I size on the dillon.

[perdurabo]

Wait, why do you have to trim after sizing? I realize that with just about any dies the neck gets worked, but not enough to change the length all that much. I use Small Base RCBS X-Dies for .223 and .308 as well and I merely trim using a basic lee cutter initially before the very first sizing and then the X-Dies should keep the case length back down below the trim-to length for the life of the case. I gauge several finished rounds out of every batch to ensure the cases are all at or near trim-to length and they always pass muster. If I fail, then the worst that happens is the round wont chamber. Big deal, I throw it in the pile to be disassembled and re-made next time.

The one shot lube takes several hours to dry off but it does eventually go away. It might leave a little bit of a tackiness but as long as the rounds still go bang in the prescribed way, who cares? I suppose its a big deal for people who reload for accuracy and consistency but since I reload for value only I really dint give a rats ass about a little extra fouling or inconsistent performance as long as my loads are safe to shoot and put the bullet downrange at Minute of Bad Guy out to 600m.

[FAL4EVER]

Originally posted by moses
You have to trim the rifle brass after you size it so you can't size on the progressive unless you do not have to trim it or decrimp the primer hole


I sure do size on the 550. To reduce trimming, I have my sizer adjusted with the help of the RCBS Precision Mic (Not bumping the shoulder more than needed). If it's time to trim, I only use the first station.
For Bold Action I only necksize, and have a seperate toolhead with FL sizer, also adjusted with the precision Mic, for when it's time to trim.

[gunsmith_tony]

When loading military range brass, "progressive" is a relative term. As stated above, after it's processed and loaded the first time it can be run through a progressive loader just like any other brass. Everyone ends up developing their own formula and process based on their own needs and equipment. Here's mine:
1. Unprocessed brass goes into tumbler for about an hour. Just long enough to get the range material off.
2. Cleaned brass gets put into stackable loading blocks and sprayed with sizing lube.
3. Full-length size all brass in Rock Chucker.
4. Run sized cases through Dillon Super Swage.
5. Trim brass to minimum length and debur.
6. Throw processed brass back into tumbler long enough the remove sizing lube and debris from previous steps.
7. Load using the 550.
I use two tool heads for .308. One with out a sizing die for loading the above, and one with all dies for loading brass thats been processed already.
I crimp using a Lee Factory Crimp die. Since it crimps with a Colet, case length uniformity is not an issue. No need to trim again until it's over maximum length. But usually though, FALs don't give you enough brass life to worry about needing to trim again.

[DarkEarth]

Originally posted by perdurabo
I really dint give a rats ass about a little extra fouling or inconsistent performance as long as my loads are safe to shoot and put the bullet downrange at Minute of Bad Guy out to 600m.


I was really following you up to this part.

How the hell is "inconsistent performance" gonna hit anything at 600M?

[perdurabo]

Originally posted by DarkEarth



I was really following you up to this part.

How the hell is "inconsistent performance" gonna hit anything at 600M?

Im not the sort who gets out the calipers when I go to the range. If I can consistently hit a torso-shaped 20x30 steel plate out to 600m, the ammo ... and me... are as good as they need to be. Hole punching is best left to people who shop at Office Depot as far as Im concerned.

[DarkEarth]

Well you're a talented shooter making hits like that consistently so here :beer: :beer:



HAHAHA, you changed it from Home Depot to Office Depot!!!!

[StealthCarry]

Ok, you've talked me into it,,,I'm getting the 650. I knew you guys would 'splain it all to me!

[Biotech]

I use a 550 for loading rifle. I have a die block setup for running my case prep of depriming, sizing and trimming. these cases are then dumped into a bucket and tumbled clean later. I clear the flash holes and inspect the cases for issues. Then hand prime them all while resting at night to ensure I have good seating depth. The primed cases are then run through on the 550 with loading dies in another die block ( I leave the priming station or #1 hole empty).
This allows me to do a batch of cases at a time with out having to to keep switching dies out. Both the prep and loading die blocks for each caliber stay adjusted and can change out quickly. Plus I dont have to fuss with the priming on the press ( I have always disliked the added pressure seating the primers while loading on a progressive press).
I use square D's for my pistol rounds I have one each set up for large and small primers.
I have powder bars preset for each caliber powder combinations I use and keep them with the die blocks for that load.
This all seems to work for me.

[fire for effect]

Originally posted by StealthCarry
Ok, you've talked me into it,,,I'm getting the 650. I knew you guys would 'splain it all to me!

Getting the 650 is a big mistake. A friend of mine had several problems similar to Gun Plumer. In addition to that the primer feed system leaves alot to be desired. My friend had primer detonations in his 650. With all of these problems, and sending it back to Dillon for rebuilds at least twice, he finally sent it back to Dillon as a trade in on a 550.

If you want a Progressive, Auto Indexing Press, then get the Hornady Lock and Load. The indexing mechanism of the Hornady is made out of steel rather than Plastic like the Dillon, and the Primer feed Mechanism on the Hornady is similar to that of the Dillon 550, which is a much better system than the 650.

[merrden]

Hi Guys: I got a XL650 off of Ebay in August. Have loaded : .223, 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 51,54, 30 06, 8 x 57, 45/70,and 38spl. About 5k total. Not running it full tilt sizing in press, hand priming, and finishing in press. Case prep is the most important step:military brass should be pre processed and primer pockets reamed or swaged first, 7.62 x 39 brass seperated in to lots of large and small primers(duh), too much lube you get sticking in the system, too little cases stuck in the die (just like the single stage press), powder spills shut the unit down and it has to be cleaned (so don't over fill cases and spill powder), keep the press clean and properly lubed, taper crimping is the way to go as roll crimping does not adjust well unless you trim every single case(more case prep), I have had some problems with the locator pins stopping cases, this unit has a lot of moving parts and is complicated when you start out, since you already have used a 450 you have a frame of reference that I do not have change over a little easier than for me from a rockchucker. Best advice from a friend who has loaded commercially on Dillons for many years: READ THE MANUAL AT LEAST 5 TIMES BEFORE YOU EVEN START. Since I only have a pdf copy it makes it difficult to use (no printer).
If economy is your concern stick with your 450 or have Dillon upgrade it, or buy the 550b. There are a lot more accessories for this model on Ebay and sportsmans warehouse stocks this one.
The extra station is handy as you can add a case level powder sensor or add another operation such as a neck expander for bottleneck cartridges when loading cast bullets.
I am still very happy with my unit even with the headaches. It beats the heck out of the single stage. We are still using my same dies that I have always used with some adjustments.

[DYNOMIKE]

Need to bump this for any new opinions or updates from previous posters..

[owlcreekok]

I just posted to another thread about reloading, and made a halfsmartass reference to the turret press (again).

I am really thinking on getting one, Mike. You know how I am about the process I favor, so no need in rehashing it. The more I think on a turret press, the more I like it. Not for increasing production rates, but for convenience. Probably not do any FL sizing on it, just neck sizing and seating. Maybe only seating. IIRC there's a six station one. I can think of four seaters that could go on it, maybe even all six if I double up on .223 and .308 to cover two different bullets.

Damn I can get myself in trouble when I go to tryin' ta thank.

:sad:

[gunnut1]

I have a 650 and I love it. I have had some minor problems but most of then can be trace to me. I have load a bunch of .223 and .308 without major problems.

Owl. Get a Hornady Lock and load Power Case Prep Center. I am going to get one for my B-day next month, Feb 20, I will be expecting a card.:biggrin: It has all of the power tools you need for case prep. My biggest gripe about case prep is the trimming. I hand trim and it gets very tiring after about 500 rounds.

[owlcreekok]

Originally posted by gunnut1
I have a 650 and I love it. I have had some minor problems but most of then can be trace to me. I have load a bunch of .223 and .308 without major problems.

Owl. Get a Hornady Lock and load Power Case Prep Center. I am going to get one for my B-day next month, Feb 20, I will be expecting a card.:biggrin: It has all of the power tools you need for case prep. My biggest gripe about case prep is the trimming. I hand trim and it gets very tiring after about 500 rounds.


PM me your addy. I know wifey has it coz I saw y'all name on the Christmas card list.

I trim hi volume with a cheapo drill press and the Lee tools (cutter-arbor-pilot-shellholder.

I do wildcats and low volume with an old Lyman Universal trimmer that I whumped up a powerhead for when I feeling particularly lazy (which is most of the time).

You can buy me a digital scale with that built in trickler dealy come my birthday if ya want to.

I'll pass on the power case prep thingy.

:rofl: