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instr8
November 17, 2006, 15:14
Just wanted to pass along something I discovered. I received 2K processed .308 militay brass in August from Scharch (topbrass). I know some of you have also ordered it. While
examining the cases, prepairing them, I found that a large percentage of the LC04 cases are not going to survive the first shot. There is a very pronounced inside ring in about a quarter of them. I also found one in a LC03 case, but none in those with other headstamps.

Unfortunately, all the others are already packed for storage, so I will probably wait until I need them to check them. I always keep samples of each HS to cut open though. There were only about 50 of the LC04 in the 2000 cases.

If you have any LC04 cases, I reccommend that you discard them.

You should use a pick or similar to run across the inside of each case. I know it's a lot of work, but only one has to slip by. I do this to every case.

Just wanted to give you a heads-up.

ftierson
November 17, 2006, 15:47
I'm guessing that this has nothing, per se, to do with the brass being LC 04...

It has all to do with the fact that these cases were shot in machineguns with 'generous' headspace.

This is a problem that has existed for at least 20 years with 'surplus' US 7.62x51mm NATO brass cartridge cases.

What I'm saying is that I wouldn't automatically consider just LC 04 brass to be suspect. Some lots may be mostly good and others mostly bad...

Check it all and be careful...

Forrest

instr8
November 17, 2006, 15:58
Maybe, I dunno, just passing along what I found.

ETA: I just checked back on a handful of LC98; LC02; LC87; LC03. I didn't find any in these. Keed in mind I did find one of the LC03 earlier though.

ftierson, I'm not eluding to any mechinism or conclusion of why it's almost all LC04. Just passing along nfo because you people are my friends and it's important to me that no body is harmed by shooting it if they have it.

Always inspect the inside of all cases visually and machanically before reloading.

owlcreekok
November 17, 2006, 16:28
Thanks instr8. I got a bunch to go check.

jerrymrc
November 17, 2006, 17:28
Well I just checked about 250 of mine and 20 were LC04. My batch was packed in sept and had 94/96/98/03/04/05 All were good.

All it takes is one gun to be a little loose and the brass from that one is going to be bulged.

goldenspurholderx2
November 17, 2006, 17:51
Speaking from experience the two barrels you have for an M240 are supposed to have the last 4 of the serial # etched by the gas block or hanging from a dog tag on the gas block, this doesn't always happen. Barrels get switched between guns all the time, so it's not out of the realm of possibility for it to be an off head spaced M240.

BTW-inst8 good looking out.

kycrawler
November 17, 2006, 18:04
i have 10 k processed between 7/31 and 8/18 i checked a buncgh of them and didnt see any head seperations

gunsmith_tony
November 17, 2006, 19:50
Well fellas, if your going to use once-fired GI brass...better make yourself one of these. I don't process brass without first checking it with my handy-dandy "feeler gage" :]



http://www.mandmgunsmithing.com/Images/FeelerGage.jpg

DYNOMIKE
November 17, 2006, 20:10
Originally posted by kycrawler
i have 10 k processed between 7/31 and 8/18 i checked a buncgh of them and didnt see any head seperations

10K!!
Can I have some??:tongue:

ftierson
November 17, 2006, 21:30
Originally posted by instr8
ftierson, I'm not eluding to any mechinism or conclusion of why it's almost all LC04. Just passing along nfo because you people are my friends and it's important to me that no body is harmed by shooting it if they have it.


And, although I didn't make it clear in my inital post here, I very much appreciate your warning.

I just wanted to make sure that no one assumes that all LC04 is bad and, conversely, that all 'other' is good...

It's important to me that none of my friends here are harmed by shooting ammo loaded with 'bad' brass either.

And, for not expressing all this clearly in my initial post, I certainly apologize...

Forrest

instr8
November 17, 2006, 21:59
Originally posted by ftierson


And, for not expressing all this clearly in my initial post, I certainly apologize...

Forrest


Apologise for what? There's no need to apologise. I was just sayin'....

We're all in this together. We all help each other.



http://www.falfiles.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1735501

W.E.G.
November 17, 2006, 22:04
For as long as I have ever used the stuff, machine-gun brass has never been reliable for more than one re-firing, and even then you are going to get some head separations. Just par for the course.

instr8
November 17, 2006, 23:41
Originally posted by W.E.G.
For as long as I have ever used the stuff, machine-gun brass has never been reliable for more than one re-firing, and even then you are going to get some head separations. Just par for the course.


You would think there would be lots more blown up guns and wounded shooters if it were that dangerous.

PUCKWALL
November 18, 2006, 08:32
With the scarcity of 7.62 x 51 ammo now I have been considering buying a press and reloading my own. This thread is kind of scaring me off though.
Could someone please give a quick explanation of how to inspect and determain a good case from a bad one? Also, would commercial .308 brass be ok to use? I have only fired Mil surplus through my FAL. I appologize for my ingnorance. But you gotta start somewhere.

Thanks in advance!

Doug

instr8
November 18, 2006, 19:59
Relax, don't be scared. Just don't miss any.

The little tools that we have pictured, you can use to feel for the wall ring (see my pic) You can make a tool like that out of about any wire. Just make sure if you feel a defect that you discard the case. And like I mentioned, don't miss any.

dadman
November 19, 2006, 07:57
Originally posted by W.E.G.
For as long as I have ever used the stuff, machine-gun brass has never been reliable for more than one re-firing, and even then you are going to get some head separations. Just par for the course.
+1.
Have used some LC in the past. After one or a couple reloads, saw some warning sign seperation lines.
Had a couple rounds split open after ejection.
Don't srimp on the brass. If any sign of seperation on the interior or exterior, throw it out.

Rich V
November 19, 2006, 14:58
Originally posted by instr8



You would think there would be lots more blown up guns and wounded shooters if it were that dangerous.

Case head separations of this type are not usually that dangerous. The case still contains the pressure with some leakage. What destroys guns and body parts are case failures from high pressure or a soft case head, these release a lot of high pressure gas and brass into the action with the resulting damage.

Rich V

Temp
November 19, 2006, 18:09
Years ago I bought some once fired military .308 and it was so expanded that it wouldn't resize back to spec with conventional reloading dies.

I had a Remington Model 788 that wouldn't chamber it come hell or high water. I steer clear of the stuff now.

On the other hand, I bought a quantity of new, pull down military brass a while ago and have been using it in my FAL's. I ran some of it through 5 firings with no problems.

W.E.G.
November 19, 2006, 18:24
Originally posted by instr8
You would think there would be lots more blown up guns and wounded shooters if it were that dangerous.

I'm not trying to sound like a supercilious smartass. But you really do need to understand the difference between a head SEPARATION, versus a head RUPTURE.

They are two completely different events, the former being nothing more than a minor inconvenience, the latter being disastrous.

W.E.G.
November 19, 2006, 18:28
Originally posted by Temp
Years ago I bought some once fired military .308 and it was so expanded that it wouldn't resize back to spec with conventional reloading dies.

I had a Remington Model 788 that wouldn't chamber it come hell or high water. I steer clear of the stuff now.

On the other hand, I bought a quantity of new, pull down military brass a while ago and have been using it in my FAL's. I ran some of it through 5 firings with no problems.

Obviously, there is a huge difference between ONCE-FIRED military brass, versus PULL-DOWN military brass. The former having probably been fired in a machine gun with a generous chamber, and long headspace, and the latter having NEVER BEEN FIRED.

Just for yuks, put some of that once-fired machine gun brass in run-out tool sometime. Its all banana-shaped, and running it through a sizing die DOES not take the banana out of it.

instr8
November 19, 2006, 21:09
Originally posted by W.E.G.


I'm not trying to sound like a supercilious smartass. But you really do need to understand the difference between a head SEPARATION, versus a head RUPTURE.

They are two completely different events, the former being nothing more than a minor inconvenience, the latter being disastrous.


You're right, I don't understand the difference. I thought the head coming loose was the head coming loose .period.

So, what is the difference?

Temp
November 19, 2006, 21:23
Originally posted by W.E.G.


Obviously, there is a huge difference between ONCE-FIRED military brass, versus PULL-DOWN military brass. The former having probably been fired in a machine gun with a generous chamber, and long headspace, and the latter having NEVER BEEN FIRED.



Yeah,.... that was the point that I was making.

I just discovered something else, also.

In the gunsmithing forum I reported a problem that I was having with a new build that wouldn't go into battery chambering the first round. The new build has a DSA barrel on it. I was firing reloads with brass which had been fired in FAL's with Imbel barrels.

I considered your advice on the new carrier rails,.. stripped the rifle, and checked movement of the carrier in the receiver. There were no tight spots whatsoever,... in fact, it felt as if there was a few thousandths play in the fit between the receiver and the carrier.

After looking over this thread and remembering the chambering problems that I had with once fired military brass, I decided to see if the new build would go into battery manually with new surplus ammo.

I stuck a full mag of surplus ammo in the rifle, pulled back the bolt, dropped it,... and it locked into battery as pretty as ya please.

Apparently, the Imbel chambers are a bit more generously sized than the commercial DSA barrel and the reloaded cases weren't being squeezed back down enough during the sizing process to chamber in the DSA barrel without offering some resistance,.... enough resistance to inhibit the bolt from locking up. But the added impetus from the firing process was enough to slam them home.

Looks like I'm going to have to invest in a small base sizing die if I'm to continue swapping the brass between my Imbel barreled FAL's and my DSA barreled FAL.

But that's OK,... I'm just glad that I found the problem,.... it had me more than a bit perplexed.

gunsmith_tony
November 19, 2006, 21:38
It's possible your new DSA barrel might have a tighter .308 chamber.

PUCKWALL
November 19, 2006, 22:24
Please define "pull-down" brass.

Thanks

owlcreekok
November 19, 2006, 22:32
Originally posted by PUCKWALL
Please define "pull-down" brass.

Thanks

I have always known it to refer to ammo components that have been disassembled from live, surplus ammo,

Pulldown brass

Pulldown powder

Pulldown bullets

Pulldown primers,,,,,,,,,:wink: (prolly get those CHEAP) :rofl:

W.E.G.
November 19, 2006, 22:51
This is a case head separation.

Half the case stays in the chamber, the ass-end gets ejected.

It doesn't blow up the gun, or even damage it in any appreciable way.

W.E.G.
November 19, 2006, 22:52
This is a case head rupture.

This blows up your gun.

W.E.G.
November 19, 2006, 22:53
A case rupture does this to your FAL.

W.E.G.
November 19, 2006, 22:55
another rupture pic

PUCKWALL
November 19, 2006, 23:39
Originally posted by W.E.G.
A case rupture does this to your FAL.

Damn W.E.G. Hope you weren't the one holding it!!!

owlcreekok
November 20, 2006, 09:22
This ought to be a sticky here in the Ammo forum. In my humble opinion.

PUCKWALL
November 22, 2006, 19:02
Originally posted by owlcreekok
This ought to be a sticky here in the Ammo forum. In my humble opinion.

+1
Lots of good safety info for us newbe reloaders

Pointman91
November 25, 2006, 03:17
I Use a paperclip to check,but use a file or a grinder to put a point on the end,this works better that the flat end in the pic above.

gunsmith_tony
November 25, 2006, 10:06
Originally posted by owlcreekok
This ought to be a sticky here in the Ammo forum. In my humble opinion. Reloading forum, I think.

PUCKWALL
November 25, 2006, 10:41
Where's the reloading forum??

EMDII
November 25, 2006, 10:44
Originally posted by PUCKWALL
Where's the reloading forum??

Uuh, you're in it now.
:eek:

gunsmith_tony
November 26, 2006, 14:36
Look fellas, reloading military range brass really isn't that big a deal. Yes, much of it was fired in machine guns...many with generous chamber length and dimensions. But thats been the case as long as I've been buying and loading it. The only case head separations I experienced had more to do with the sizing die not being properly adjusted than any case abnormalities.
First, you know it has to be processed. Thats a given. Most of it's going to be over-expanded and all bent out of shape...as outlined in the many posts above.
Initially, just run it all through a small base sizer. This will take it down to what it's supposed to be. I generally get from three to four loadings using this method. Once it's all sized, check it with your "Probe" of choice. This step doesn't take long at all. I do a handful at a time. If you feel a ring, even if you think you feel a ring, chunk it. Then continue the processing.
Once fired after this initial processing, use your full length sizer...or stick with the small base if thats what your chamber likes.

Nothing new about this.

gunsmith_tony
November 26, 2006, 14:40
If it has to do with reloading, or components thereof..."I" think it needs to be in the reloading forum. Just my opinion of course.

jerico941
December 07, 2006, 19:51
here is my .o2-inspect your brass under bright lighting-dont be shy about tossing it out-after a while you will clearly see the fracture lines forming-soend $ 7.oo for a shell extractor-they work great and your children will be impressed at your ability to clear the chamber when a shell lets go

tommygun2000
November 19, 2007, 17:48
Originally posted by W.E.G.
This is a case head separation.

Half the case stays in the chamber, the ass-end gets ejected.

It doesn't blow up the gun, or even damage it in any appreciable way.

Why do all those cases look like they were saw cut and then broken?

Every case head separation I've encountered has a sharp edge around the circumference from where it stretched and fatigued.

EricCartmanR1
May 31, 2008, 21:30
I now know what you guys are talking about.

I made one of those "ring feeling" tools out of a paper clip and still can't feel shit... but I actually can see the ring when I put a really bright flashlight too it. Out of of about 500 cases of LC and PMJ milsurp MG brass, I found about 5 cases with a ring inside.

Jon
September 08, 2008, 12:38
So from what I'm hearing I can expect to toss 30-50% of the LC04 brass?

I was thinking about buying some. :confused:

jerrymrc
September 08, 2008, 15:23
Originally posted by Jon
So from what I'm hearing I can expect to toss 30-50% of the LC04 brass?

I was thinking about buying some. :confused:

Read
EricCartmanR1 post. He found 10 out of 1000. I bought 2000 a couple of years ago and have only used about 300 of them. Have not found one yet.

And it this point in time they are on to other runs so this may or may not be true. As A rule of thumb you will always have a few cases out of 1000 that are rejects.

flintman
December 06, 2008, 20:12
Wow , I just orderd a 1000 cases today and then I seen this . The ones I ordered were already decapped ,reamed ,cleaned ,full lengh sized and trimmed.I hope all those steps will help eliminate the bad ones.

English Mike
December 06, 2008, 21:02
Originally posted by flintman
Wow , I just orderd a 1000 cases today and then I seen this . The ones I ordered were already decapped ,reamed ,cleaned ,full lengh sized and trimmed.I hope all those steps will help eliminate the bad ones.

Don't hope - check.
It'll save mucking around to get half a case out of the chamber & only takes a second or two per case.

flintman
December 06, 2008, 22:18
I will Mike ,I couldn't see the picture of the paper clip checker . I take it that it'sa a paper clip with a short bend in the end.

Jon Frum
January 02, 2011, 10:26
Originally posted by PUCKWALL
.
Could someone please give a quick explanation of how to inspect and determain a good case from a bad one? Doug


Me too! Where does the ring show up? I have a bunch of brass that needs checking.

Survey Punk
January 02, 2011, 11:38
The ring forms just above the head of the case. See the photo of the separated cases in the loading block. A tool, with a small hook on the end, inserted through the case mouth and rubbed on the inside of the case walls will let you feel it. Sometimes it shows as a bright ring on the outside of a case just above the head. In short, this is caused by the same mechanism you would have by bending a wire over and over. Eventually it breaks.
Short article on the subject: http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/05/case-head-separation-causes-and-how-to-spot-problems/

Oh, this can, and does, happen with commercial cases too.

JB

Jon Frum
January 03, 2011, 09:46
Thanks.

Sperzuki
February 06, 2012, 21:09
I had a bunch of LC brass that had a few machinegun brass mixed in. It had burrs on the rim and wouldn't fit into the case holder to even resize. I just tossed it in the recycle bin.

hueyville
December 09, 2014, 15:56
I had same issue with 7.62x39 recently. I bought large lots from three vendors. 3,000 cases from one guy on an auction, 500 from an online company had never used to see what their quality was and 5,000 from company used with good results. The 3,000 auction lot had over 350 cases that would not even fit in shell holder. Another ~150 were so badly bulged at base didn't even try to load even with small base carbide die. ~100 already had split necks, poor job separating cases on sellers part. Everything was boxer primed though. So over 600 out of 3k went in scrap bin, sad. Will see how rest do after 1st trip to range. My guess they came from range that rents full auto and one gun is way out of spec. Weird were using brass cases but suspect had been commercially reloaded once before. Last auction brass I buy without some direct questions.

New vendors brass all made past initial inspection except three with stepped on necks. My 5,000 lot was all vendor had and told me he was retiring and once inventory gone would be no more. Why took all his x39. Danged if I didn't score. Be must have had his better stuff segregated and holding for rainy day. Out of 5k total was just over 1,000 Norma and ~650 KP which made by Norma back long time ago and at one time the 6mm bench rest guys sought out the KP for some reason. Also had ~2,000 PMC's in lot and just over 500 older Remingtons with small rifle primer pockets. If not anal myself the KP and small rifle primer Remingtons would be for sale on one of the 6mm sites.

Also bought 5,000 x51 LC cases. After reading this thread examined closely and all were more than fine. Most would sneak past with neck size only. Another guess is came from military turn bolt range as no dents or bent necks. Shame "my guy" has killed website and selling out to old.customers but at least I sifted cream of his x39 and x51 cases off before all gone.