Favorite .308 FAL loads.

[exit]

New to FALs.Surplus .308 is getting scarce AND expensive.To all of you experienced FAL reloaders,I would appreciate information on your favorite load data for blasting and accuracy ammo.
Thanks

[hagar]

LC cases, Win primers, 42 grains of Varget, your 150 gr FMJ bullet of choice(the FN projectiles at Wideners shoot well).

[exit]

Hagar,
Thanks.

[gunsmith_tony]

My FAL load:

> GI brass I use once-fired military brass in bulk. Clean it, size it, swage the primer pockets, and trim. I've never actually used commercial brass with this caliber. If you do, you'll need to adjust the charge weight accordingly.
> 147-grn NATO Projectile I also buy these in bulk. Pulled bullets...they come sized and polished, with no collet marks. This load can also be used with any 150-grn, .308-dia, FMJ/BT factory bullets...Winchester, Hornady, etc.
> 40.8-grns AA-2460 Good powder for this caliber/bullet combination. A ball powder, it runs through progressive loading machines very uniformily.
> CCI #34 Military primer These have thicker cups than ordinary primers. Less chance of a slam-fire. They are made specifically for use in military style self-loading rifles.
> Crimp I use a Lee "Factory Crimp" die. Only Lee product I like.

Read this too (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180623)

[exit]

Thanks,Tony. All of this is exactly what I was looking for.What are your sources for once fired brass?
exit

[gunsmith_tony]

Been getting it from Hi Tech Ammo. Curently though, their out...but expect to get some in "soon".

[ANGST]

Anyone using Hodgdon BL-C(2)™ ?

[mr_e]

Hagar,

Have you clocked those Varget loads? I'm switching to Varget from Reloder 15 because of easier availability.

My load manual shows 44 grains to get 4660 fps, which I'm using to match my SA surplus stash.

I thought the SA was on the slow side of most military ammo, which is what I'd expect the FAL to be designed for.

e

[hagar]

44 grains of Varget with LC cases is too hot a load for a FAL(especially if you get 4600feet/sec!). I load 46 grains in Lapua cases, 45.5 in Winchester with the 155 grain Hornady AMax bullet to shoot out of an old Palma rifle, but it has a lot of freebore and I seat my bullets long. LC cases have a lot less capacity than commercial cases.

[mr_e]

Hmmmm. I mean 2660 fps, but maybe I need to rethink this anyway!

I'm setting up to measure the difference between loading with commercial Remington 308 brass and NATO spec stuff (either LC or WCC).

I've loaded two test sets (44 and 44.5) in each case for comparison. The Sierra manual puts these loads at the low end of the scale, and I'm using 147 gr. bullets rather than 150 gr.

Is this too hot to be safe or just too hot for long-term use?

e

[shootist87122]

Originally posted by mr_e

I'm setting up to measure the difference between loading with commercial Remington 308 brass and NATO spec stuff (either LC or WCC).



mr_e,

Here is some chronograph data I did yesterday using Varget reloads in different brass and also using CCI #34 NATO spec 7.62 primers and Federal Match 210M primers. I also chronographed Aussie AFF '83 and SA surplus.

Rifle used for the surplus was an Imbel with 21" barrel.
Rifle used for the reloads was an Ishapore 2A1 with 25"? barrel.

There was a huge difference between the Fed210M (match) and CCI #34 Primers. Hopefully this will aid in your quest:

Imbel:
Aussie AFF '83 over a Pact Chronograph:
Avg MV / SD
1) 2721 / 33
2) 2730 / 25
3) 2750 / 24.9 (Over a CHRONY Chronograph)

SA '81 over PACT:
2711 / 35 (Unknown lot#; Borrowed these from another shooter)

Ishapore 2A1:
Aussie AFF 83
2758 / 15.2

45.1 Varget/ Fed210Match/ 150 Hornady FMJ-BT / Aussie '91 Brass
2740 / 15.2 (Excellent accuracy ~ 2+ MOA/Iron Sights; Same traj as Aussie.)

45.0 Varget/ CCI #34/ 150 Hornady FMJ-BT / Aussie '91 Brass
2859 / 5.7 (Primers looked OK, but possible sticky bolt starting = Too Hot!) This load shot low/right.

45.0 Varget/ CCI #34/ 150 Hornady FMJ-BT / New Graff .308 Brass
2754 / 11.1 (Best Accuracy tested; 2 MOA/Iron Sights /w best 4 of 5 at 1"; X 2 groups; Same traj as Aussie)

45.0 Varget/ CCI #34/ 150 Hornady FMJ-BT / Once fired Hornady .308 Brass
2811 / 11.5 (Not tested on paper)

Moral: Be careful when you change brass or primers.

[mr_e]

So it seems like I'm OK with 44.5 Varget under a 147 gr. bullet in LC brass with Win Large Rifle primers, but I should make sure that I'm not seeing high pressure signs with this load.

It is probably closer to the high end of the load recipe than the low end.

[shootist87122]

44.5 grains of Varget should be OK, but it would not hurt to load five at a half grain less and shoot/check them before moving up.

Interpolating the data from the Sierra manual I need to drop my "Hot" load (using the hotter CCI #34 primers & Aussie brass) by up to 1.7 grains to get back to my preferred velocity and pressure levels. (Or just stay with the Fed match primers in the Aussie case.)

[mr_e]

Agreed. As of now, 44 gr. is my starting load.

Based on your measurements, I might get my desired results with about 5% less powder, or 42 gr. as Hagar suggested.

That would be nearly 1 extra round for every 20 loaded. Cool :p

[dave5339]

I've been loading up with the following:

Hirtenberger military brass, last time I use this brass, primer flash hole is tiny
Surplus collet pulled 147 grain FMJ projectiles
Large rifle primers
Accurate Arms Data 68 powder, currently loading 39 grains, and shooting 37.4 grains.
Lee crimp die, the only Lee tool we own



The Hirtenberger brass has been giving us fits reloading as the primer flash hole is tiny enough that our decapping pin is binding in there. We've destroyed half a dozen decapping pins and lost count of the number of cases that the head has been ripped off in the press. We are searching for a new source of bulk brass currently.

The 37.4 grains of Data 68 is almost a little to soft of a load to cycle the FALs. We have to run the gas setting pretty low to get them to cycle. The nice thing on the Data 68 is it's cheap, it meters well, (ball powder) and it seems to work well for us.

My wife has a can of the Hodgdon BL-C(2) that she is itching to try. She can't decide whether to load it for her bolt gun or her FAL though.

Semper Fi

edited to add Lee crimp die

[mr_e]

Got out today to test my Varget-based handloads and got the following results from a 21" barrel STG-58 FrankenFAL:


Load.............................................. ......10 shot Avg. FPS
Wolf 150 gr FMJBT...................................2798
SA 147 gr. FMJBT ...................................2663
Varget 42 gr. 147 gr. FMJBT NATO brass......2542
Varget 43 gr. 147 gr. FMJBT NATO brass......2642
Varget 44 gr. 147 gr. FMJBT NATO brass......2652
Varget 44.5 gr. 147 gr. FMJBT NATO brass...2663
Varget 44 gr. 147 gr. FMJBT Rem. brass.......2642
Varget 44.5 gr. 147 gr. FMJBT Rem brass.....2671

I saw no signs of overpressure with any of these loads, although I did start getting some slight primer flattening at the highest hand loads. They all looked pretty mild compared to the Wolf primers. All loads used Winchester Large Rifle primers.

Most of my handloads grouped at right around 2" for 11 shots, the SA at 3" and the Wolf at 4".

The planets must have aligned or my rifle really likes that 44 gr. Varget in NATO brass, because it gave me the best group of the afternoon at about 1 1/4" 11 shot group (not counting the flyer). This will be my Varget recipe in the future.

My best group using Remington commercial brass came with 45 gr. Varget loads. Still no pressure warnings. Unfortunately, as it got late in the day the sun angle interfered with the Chrony, so I couldn't measure any velocities.

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m86/dewelker/Gun%20Pics/FAL/Varget44_5.jpg

[shootist87122]

Excellent shooting mr_e.

[GySgt D]

Hmm.. Y'all got me to worrying about my pet load:

46.2 gr of Varget
150gr Remington Core-Lokt soft point
once-fired Lake City brass
Winchester primers

I don't have the chrono figures right in front of me, but IIRC this produces only 2615 {correction: 2660} fps out of a Century L1a1 (the monkeys at Century lop off about an inch of the barrel in order to get rid of the threads).

No signs of high pressure with the above load. Have tested it all the way to 46.6 {correction: 46.5} without incident. No increase in velocity after 46.2 grains, so that is where I kept it at.

I've also fired this load in a STG-58, and I'm still amongst the living.

Should I be worried? Seriously.

[mr_e]

GySgt D

It's interesting that your heavier load produces nearly 50 fps less than my 44.5 gr. load.

Is it possible that that's too much powder to burn completely?

Do you have to compress that load in your LC cases?

Based on my results, it seems like yours might be a safe load. Pressures seemed pretty mild at 44.5 gr. in NATO LC cases.

[GySgt D]

I just checked my notes. 2660 fps.

Increasing the charge up to 46.5 (not the 46.6 that I mentioned earlier) had no effect on the velocity. At no time did I overt pressure signs.

I've fired quite of few rounds with this (46.2gr) loading, with no signs of high pressure. The fact that all of you are using something considerably less has got me mightily concerned.

If it is a compressed load, it is only a very slight one. No crunching sensation noticed, ha.

I load my "accuracy" 168gr loads with 45.4 grains, FWIW (commercial brass).

[shootist87122]

Originally posted by GySgt D
Hmm.. Y'all got me to worrying about my pet load:

46.2 gr of Varget
150gr Remington Core-Lokt soft point
once-fired Lake City brass
Winchester primers

I don't have the chrono figures right in front of me, but IIRC this produces only 2615 fps out of a Century L1a1 (the monkeys at Century lop off about an inch of the barrel in order to get rid of the threads).

No signs of high pressure with the above load. Have tested it all the way to 46.6 without incident. No increase in velocity after 46.2 grains, so that is where I kept it at.

Should I be worried? Seriously.

Bill - Just my $.02 and a fair amount of experience in reloading:

Best SWAG is you bore size is a bit bigger than normal, possibly by design, and this or something similar, along with a shortened barrel is affecting velocity.

If you are not seeing signs of excssive pressure (flattened primers, heavy case-head marks, etc) everything is fine. You might want to check your velocity over a different chronograph, however.

What you appear to be getting reflects the differences often seen in different reloading manuals. Much depends on the firearm or test barrel - that's why no one should ever start near the upper limits. The bullets you are using can even make a significant difference.

I run *46.7 grains of Varget in my hunting load for a Rem VSSF (26" heavy barrel) using Nosler 150 BTs, with no pressure problems. I have not chronigraphed that load, but a similar load (slightly less powder, IIRC) and Sierra 155 Palmas runs 2,880 fps. This is a tighter chamber and longer barrel than you are using, so you cannot compare it to a surplus Britt barrel.

Just don't switch to a magnum primer with your load and you should be fine. If you change to a different bullet or case, you need to back off on the powder a little and work up again.

*EDIT: The above load is in US Commercial brass using standard (Fed 210 match) primers.

[mr_e]

btt

[shootist87122]

Was out today doing chronograph work on a variation of my 150 Hornday FMJ / Varget load. Shooting through the chrongraph and running a group at 200 Yds at the same time. This is military brass and the hotter CCI #34 primer.

150 Hornady FMJ
AFF 91 Brass (third loading)
42.7 grains Varget
CCI #34 Nato Spec Primer
COL 2.788

Group measures 3 3/8 inchies for 9 of 9 at 200 Yds.

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by shootist87122
Was out today doing chronograph work on a variation of my 150 Hornday FMJ / Varget load. Shooting through the chrongraph and running a group at 200 Yds at the same time. This is military brass and the hotter CCI #34 primer.

150 Hornady FMJ
AFF 91 Brass (third loading)
42.7 grains Varget
CCI #34 Nato Spec Primer
COL 2.788

Group measures 3 3/8 inchies for 9 of 9 at 200 Yds.

You suck.....:biggrin: And you better not do this kind of stuff at the Falfest.:beer:

[daschnoz]

Originally posted by ANGST
Anyone using Hodgdon BL-C(2)™ ?

I played with some toward the end of last year (the warm part that is).

- LC brass
- CCI #34
- 46gr BL-C(2)
- 150gr FMJ

I clocked about 2650fps at 25 yards.


Once the weather gets warmer, I plan to work up a mil. spec. load (2750 at 25 yards w/ 147gr FMJ).

[shootist87122]

Originally posted by jerrymrc


You suck.....:biggrin: And you better not do this kind of stuff at the Falfest.:beer:

jerry,

HA! I do wish I could shoot that kind of group (especially in a FAL) from somewhere other than the bench.

The verdict is still out for 500M, but it's a good load to at least 400. It does shoot a little bit to the right VS AFF 91, but was still on the 18" gong at 400 (right of center) without changing sight settings. At 500 I was having to give half a target left windage, but light and eyes on the irons were fading fast.

Aussie was running 2,756 fps in the same gun so maybe I need to bump up the powder charge a hair.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

Here is my current "pet load."

.30 cal 168 gr Hornady Hollow Point Boat Tail Match bullet

45 gr WCC 846 (surplus powder)

Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle Primer

Remington case trimmed to 2.005
========================================

173 gr USGI surplus HPBT bullet (at least, that is what the guy at the gunshow that sold them to me said that they were. )

43.7 gr WCC 846

Remington 9 1/2 Large Rifle Primer

Remington Case trimmed to 2.005

============================================
Both of these loads produce consistant 1 inch groups through my homebuilt F A L with a full length StG 58 barrel using a bench and sand bags with open sites at 100 yrds to the same POA/POI. ( Are there enough caveats in that sentence?)

When using USGI match brass with the above recipe, I get the same group sizes, but to a different point of impact than when using Remington brass.

===============================================

I have an F A L that gets small groups with PORT ammo, so I haven't bothered to work up a load for that rifle yet. However, with the PORT being unavailable anymore, I will soon be trying to duplicate the performance of PORT with my hand loads in that rifle.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

BTW, everybody knows that F A Ls are not accurate rifles. So stop it with the pictures of small groups and stuff. You aren't foolin' anybody.

[Kyrottimus]

Originally posted by Hebrew Battle Rifle
BTW, everybody knows that F A Ls are not accurate rifles. So stop it with the pictures of small groups and stuff. You aren't foolin' anybody.

They're not inaccurate, nor are they very accurate. They are sufficiently accurate for their intended purpose.

That purpose?

Battle....

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

Originally posted by Kyrottimus


They're not inaccurate, nor are they very accurate. They are sufficiently accurate for their intended purpose.

That purpose?

Battle....

Where is that tongue in cheek smilie? I really need that one.

[DYNOMIKE]

147 Gr Pills, FN, and TZ Cases, 44 Gr VARGET worked very well out of three guns I tried this load in..
NO pressure signs whatsoever and very Good Extraction/Ejection..

I like the Powder quite a Bit,, however extruded powders don't meter so well out of my Powder Charge bar so I will try it with my RCBS Powder dispenser..
I have had good results with the same components and a Charge of W-748 as well. This powder Flows and meters GREAT.
Need to load some more up for a Back to Back comparison very soon..

[Cava3r4]

however extruded powders don't meter so well out of my Powder Charge bar so I will try it with my RCBS Powder dispenser..

If you are using a dillon 550 do this.
1) use automotive wax on the slide on the powder charge bar, (wipe it on, wipe it off just like doing a fender on a car)
2) wax the primer feed bar and the flat steel plate that it rides on.
3) wax the top of the bar (where it goes into the primer feed tube block) where it pivots. this is the bar that moves the primer feed bar back and forth
4) wax the funnel piece inside the powder dump so it moves freely.
I feed varget into all my favorites.... .223, .243, and 7.62 NATO.
it sure seems to help me.
HTH
Bob

[Powerlock25]

has anyone ever tried AA2230, H335, or WC844

[dave5339]

After trying WCC846 and having enough problems I was giving thought to selling the FAL my wife called Hodgdon earlier in the week for some information.

We ended up picking up an 8# can of H4895.

I loaded up a batch of milsurp brass at 40, 40.5, 41, 41.5, and 42 grains.

I was very happily surprised to see my FAL run like it should. It ran all the loads with a gas port setting of 5 or higher. There were also no signs of primer deformation or pressure issues.

I think though we are going to settle on 41.5 grains of H4895 with the 147 grain surplus bullets, a CCI large rifle primer and call it good, provided it's reasonably accurate. I'm also happy that I can continue to replicate this load as long as I can get surplus brass and bullets.

I also need to run another batch and see which gives us the most accuracy. My main concern was just getting the danged thing to run.

Thanks for the help.

Semper Fi

[shootist87122]

dave5339,

Everything is relative to how a specific rifle shoots a reload compared to some other ammo of known characteristics. Your reload should at least be in the accuracy range of SA R1M1, Aussie, Federal AE, or similar. If not, then keep tweaking.

I posted sometime back about trying my Varget load in a second rifle after getting a good scope setup working on it. Back to back groups while sighting in the scope: pic on left is Aussie '83 (great stuff) and the reload is on the right:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/shootist87122/Targ-Scp3GFAL-GPG-Mnt_edited.jpg

[Deltaten]

SO Dave....
what particulr problems did you experience with WC 846?
Anything unusual?

Paul

[dave5339]

With the WCC846 I was using military surplus brass, CCI large rifle primers with 41 to 43 grains of powder.

The problem I was running into was it would not cycle my rifle, even with my gas port set down to one. The bolt would partially open, but it would not cycle all the way. It was acting like it wasn't getting near enough gas to operate the piston, (that problem had been an issue when I first got it but Sledgehammer worked it over and fixed the issue).

Further research showed I should have used magnum primers with that powder.

I don't expect the FAL to ever shoot as tight as my bolt guns, but I'd like to keep it around 2 MOA.

Semper Fi

[Deltaten]

Thanks Dave! I think the #34 0r magnums are de rigeur with this powder. There is also the possibility that you were a little light in the charge. Most here say WC846 is the same as BL-C2 or 748 (?) and would be in th 44.5 to 47 gr range. some have even pushed them with more.

TYVM,
Paul

[USSR]

'63 RA Brass
WLR primer
144gr CBC FMJBT
44.0gr surplus IMR4895
2.810 OAL
2MOA at 100 yards

Don

http://www.ussr.baka.com/FAL_target.jpg

[4 brigada]

Hi

You guys that are putting in 46 grains of Varget, whats the seating depth and overall length, I cant get 45grs/175 hpbt sierras in the winchester match or Lake City without it starting to compress the powder. Auto scared, redid the whole lot to 43.5 grains of Varget. By the way I dont use reloads in my fals, my best group was with SA surplus from my STG 58 clone (new barrel well new everything) inch and a quarter at 100 dont mean it will be the same MOA at 300. If I didnt see it I would never believed it Bench and bipod.

Thanks

4 brigada

[Groucho]

Through the M1A.


Powder IMR 4064 @ 42.2 gr.
Case LC
Primer CCI Large Rifle
Bullet M80 FMJ (new, not pulled)
Avg. velocity 2629 fps @ 10'

YMMV

Groucho

[jerrymrc]

Just spent 5 days playing with loads and I am still not sure what I want to do.

The good.

45gr BLC2 aff91 cases CCI#34. 147 FN's gave a good group and is the same POI as AFF91 @200 yards.

Joe's 43gr Varget was good also but off to the right. I also was able to get readings and the avg came out to 2540.

I used the same load with WLR as GunsmithTony's (AFF91 brass, 40.8 of 2460 and 147fn bullets) and got a nice 10 shot group @ 200 but was 6 O'Clock low just a little. I had nothing but errors on the speed but this would make a great 200 load as long as I hold over a little.

At the end of the fourth day and 100 rds of loads for .308 (did I mention we also did .223 and 762X39?) I did a sanity check and and shot 10 rds of AFF91.
99-4X on a standard NRA 200 yard target from a bench.

The Bad.

A bunch of rounds downrange that that suck (for this gun anyway)

At the end of 5 days Littletex and I sent 300 rds of test loads at targets and another 300 rds of pistol and shotgun ammo. Had fun but I am tired.

[shootist87122]

Jerry,

It sounds like you need to load up another batch of Tony's load and get a good chronograph reading. Maybe +/- 0.3 grains of powder would get you there.

Joe

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by shootist87122
Jerry,

It sounds like you need to load up another batch of Tony's load and get a good chronograph reading. Maybe +/- 0.3 grains of powder would get you there.

Joe

I am thinking just a switch to #34 primers will get me there but I also have 300 pieces of AFF91 ready to load with WLR primers and want a load for 200. I know it groups well @100 but I do not do allot of shooting at that range.

[K.R. Rabbit]

I made up some loads to duplacate the vel. of Win. white box .308. I used 43.5 grains of IMR 4895 with assorted mil. surp. cases, 147 gr. FN FMJBT bullets I got from Widener's back in the day, WWLR primers for a muzzle vel. of 2600 fps. This load duplicated the av. velocity of the Win. white box. It shoots great in a friends SOCOM. I used it in a CETME with no trouble, shot to point of aim, just like the Win. white box. Your results may vary.
Rabbit

[gerry g]

Dave5339
Did you settle on a good load using Data 68?

[Deltaten]

I just finished loading 200 rd in TZ and "KY" cases trimmed and pocketed with #34 primers, 147 gr M-80 (nice) pulls and 44.8-9 gr of WC 846. I estimate (via extrapolation from various sources) that it will do somewhere close to 2600 fps.

I have another 200 ready for powder and bullets. waiting for next weekend to see what they do to load the rest.

Then there's the 200 or so CAVIM cases that are prepped :D

Paul

[jerrymrc]

Got back to the range with some more loads. The 45gr of BLC-2 was the same as last time. 45.5 was a better group but still to the right and a little high.

Then came the adjustment to GunsmithTony's load. 41.3gr of 2460 Aff91 brass WLR primer 147 FN bullets 10 shot group 99-4X @200 yards. I think I have found a load that I can exchange for Aussie @ 200 yards. All shots were prone and not from a bench today.

I am both happy that I have found a load that the gun likes but unhappy that I only have a couple of pounds of 2460.

[shootist87122]

Very interesting Jerry. By any chance did you Chrono the revised 2460 load?

My Varget load @ 2,750 fps also shoots to the right (Vs AFF91) at distance through the Imbel, but the drop is near dead on out to 500M. I ran out the last few when I scoped the 3-Gun FAL, but since I was still tweaking the scope I did not get a perfect read. I have another batch ready to try in that rifle at distance when I get the chance.

The scoped rifle is working really good with MF83 and AFF91, so it will be interesting to compare.

[Deltaten]

Update / range report..

44.8 gr of WC846 is way too hot for my FALs and seriously hot for an almost new Savage sniper that tried 'em on! THat boy had trouble swinging the bolt up to eject! Once he got it up, allwas OK, tho . The Ishy Enfield took e'm in stride, and it "felt" like more of a push than the thump from S/A ammo???

Hi of 2919 and a low of 2895..most at or above 2900 fps!

A tad warm-ish. No overt signs of pressure, aside from the serously flattened , but not cratered primers.

"Shorty" don't like 'em much, so a collet type puller is in my immediate future :D
Hopes this helps someone else out that is using data-less powder;)
\
Paul

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by shootist87122
Very interesting Jerry. By any chance did you Chrono the revised 2460 load?

My Varget load @ 2,750 fps also shoots to the right (Vs AFF91) at distance through the Imbel, but the drop is near dead on out to 500M. I ran out the last few when I scoped the 3-Gun FAL, but since I was still tweaking the scope I did not get a perfect read. I have another batch ready to try in that rifle at distance when I get the chance.

The scoped rifle is working really good with MF83 and AFF91, so it will be interesting to compare.

I did not but I am going to check it next time. I have not looked at the primers but the 25.5 load of BLC-2 felt like it was getting warm.

I think it was weired that with the BLC-2 the hotter I loaded it the better it got.
The 45 load I tested 3 weeks ago and today were OK and a little to the right. I thought it was just me. Todays 45.5 load was tighter but more at 2 O'Clock.

If I were to adjust for it the 25.5 load would be a good one. I do want to try the 2460 @ 600 I think it will like the 600 setting over the 500 but I may be wrong.

I have a feeling that after my tests with the BLC-2 that I have 8lbs of that I may be in for a fight with the case of WC846 downstairs.:sad:

[cpd109]

has anyone ever tried AA2230, H335, or WC844

I have! I use H335 for 223 and 308- works ok for both. The 308 uses 43.6 gr with 150 Hornady FMJ bullet. (I don't seat it to the canlure (?)). The 223 uses 24 gr with 55 gn bullet- I think Winchesters. I also use Winchester primers- they don't crush too much. Accuracy on both is about the same- maybe 2 -3 inches with iron sigts. I have thought about messing around with other powders and could probably improve some, but how much better for all the headache I would have, and cost. Both rifles prefer FMJ.

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by Deltaten
Update / range report..

44.8 gr of WC846 is way too hot for my FALs and seriously hot for an almost new Savage sniper that tried 'em on! THat boy had trouble swinging the bolt up to eject! Once he got it up, allwas OK, tho . The Ishy Enfield took e'm in stride, and it "felt" like more of a push than the thump from S/A ammo???

Hi of 2919 and a low of 2895..most at or above 2900 fps!

A tad warm-ish. No overt signs of pressure, aside from the serously flattened , but not cratered primers.

"Shorty" don't like 'em much, so a collet type puller is in my immediate future :D
Hopes this helps someone else out that is using data-less powder;)
\
Paul

That is good info. I have 24lbs of the stuff and I would have started at 44gr.:eek:

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by cpd109
has anyone ever tried AA2230, H335, or WC844

I have! I use H335 for 223 and 308- works ok for both. The 308 uses 43.6 gr with 150 Hornady FMJ bullet. (I don't seat it to the canlure (?)). The 223 uses 24 gr with 55 gn bullet- I think Winchesters. I also use Winchester primers- they don't crush too much. Accuracy on both is about the same- maybe 2 -3 inches with iron sigts. I have thought about messing around with other powders and could probably improve some, but how much better for all the headache I would have, and cost. Both rifles prefer FMJ.

I use H335 for the .223 loads and have a jug of the WC844. I need to test a little more for the .223 since it seemed that just about all the loads shot the same for Littletex at 200 yards.

I tried the SAR-3 at Raton with some Maine reloads that had 23gr of what looked like H335 or WC844 with a 55gr bullet and they were very good @ 200.

I have tried Varget in the .223 and was a good load. I never would have tried the 2460 load in the .308 but it now has results so I guess I will try it in the .223
also.

[mr_e]

I got a chance to try out that 44.0 gr. Varget load that I detailed in posting #16 of this thread. I confirmed that this mostly STG-58 FrankenFAL:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m86/dewelker/Gun%20Pics/FAL/woody_fal2.jpg

really seems to like it.

I got this result at 500 yds. from the scoped rifle using the rifle's bipod on a shooting bench:

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m86/dewelker/Gun%20Pics/FAL/500yds.jpg

This puts to rest any questions I have about accuracy. She'll do her part if I do mine.:love:

[RottenII]

I'd be proud of that target at 200yrs......500yrds? Damn, thats good shooting.

[shootist87122]

I'd say mr_e might have a keeper. Nice rifle and nice shooting.

[GSF1200]

I use 45.5gr's of WC-846 with a 150gr Hornady SST, haven't chrongraphed but it isn't too hot, and it is sub 1/2 moa in my Savage

[fastprofessor]

Originally posted by ANGST
Anyone using Hodgdon BL-C(2)™ ?

I use it in my .308 and my .223 loads. Since its a ball powder it flows well and gives consistent loads for me. I like 43 grains and a 150 gr. boat tail for my FALs.

[Deltaten]

GSF1200....
geeze! 45.5 and a 150 gr'r must be doin' close to3000 fps! what brass and primer.?
curious minds wanna know :D

Paul

[Deltaten]

Jerry:
with the batch that I have... I think I'll drop back to 42.5 or 43 and start going up from there. That was gonna be my start point; but extrapolation of other similar powders indicated that 45.5 like GSF listed would be top. so I backed it down to what I thought would be a decent figure.
Oh well:WTF:
:D
best,
Paul

[SID325]

I finally settled on, 43.2grs WC846, #34 primer, LC brass, 147gr FMJ. Shoots very well in all my Fals and is not hot. I use the same gas setting for SA and Aussie.

Sid

[spatin]

Originally posted by Kyrottimus


They're not inaccurate, nor are they very accurate. They are sufficiently accurate for their intended purpose.

That purpose?

Battle....

"M.O.E." accuracy

(minute of enemy)

Sidney

:p

[jerrymrc]

So it was back to the range again. In previous posts I have found that 41.3 of 2460 with mil cases and WLR primers are what my gun likes and is interchangable with AFF91 for 200 yards.

Well it seems I have a bunch of CCI 34 primers so it was off today to find what load it liked with them.

200 yards,nra target. shot 5 of the earler batch with WLR primers and an X, 3 10's and a 9. OK, so I am on target.

First batch. 40.0 of 2460, 147fn's and the CCI 34 primers. An X 2 10's and 3 9's all centered.

second batch, third batch, forth batch. 40.4, 40,8, 41. All off to the right. I even put on the Kung-Fu grip and watched my sight picture very carefully but all the shots wound up in the 8 ring off to the right. Now I will say that they did not rise like with the BLC-2 did but I have a feeling it has something to do with the barrel harmonics of this gun.

Next test is a to run them over a crony and see what is going on there. I will take powder,bullets and primed brass next time to make changes on the spot. If I had just bought another 5000 rds of aff91 I would not have to go through this.:sad:

[spatin]

Hi Jerry. Next time we ge out to Frontier Range (when the weather clears) you are welcome to come and fire over my chronograph if you like.

Right now I have some LC brass loaded up with 41.3, .6, .9 and 42 gr of 2460. Hope I can get to NATO velocity. So far the accuracy is "ok" and no pressure signs up to 41.3 grains.

Once I find something my rifle likes, I can start production. Not there yet, but the weather is slowing me down.

Sidney

Originally posted by jerrymrc
So it was back to the range again. In previous posts I have found that 41.3 of 2460 with mil cases and WLR primers are what my gun likes and is interchangable with AFF91 for 200 yards.

Well it seems I have a bunch of CCI 34 primers so it was off today to find what load it liked with them.

200 yards,nra target. shot 5 of the earler batch with WLR primers and an X, 3 10's and a 9. OK, so I am on target.

First batch. 40.0 of 2460, 147fn's and the CCI 34 primers. An X 2 10's and 3 9's all centered.

second batch, third batch, forth batch. 40.4, 40,8, 41. All off to the right. I even put on the Kung-Fu grip and watched my sight picture very carefully but all the shots wound up in the 8 ring off to the right. Now I will say that they did not rise like with the BLC-2 did but I have a feeling it has something to do with the barrel harmonics of this gun.

Next test is a to run them over a crony and see what is going on there. I will take powder,bullets and primed brass next time to make changes on the spot. If I had just bought another 5000 rds of aff91 I would not have to go through this.:sad:

[EricCartmanR1]

I need to tag this.

[spatin]

Hi Greg. Is that 43 gr of AA 2460 in a mil-surp brass case like LC? WLP or CCI-200 primers?
I have been working up a similar load and have some ready to shoot from 41.3 gr to 42 gr. Hope to fire those next time we get a weather break.
I found there was quite a difference between civilian cases like RP or Winchester and the LC or LC Match cases. These ones I have loaded now are in Match cases.
Have a nice Easter Day.
Sidney

Originally posted by fastprofessor


I use it in my .308 and my .223 loads. Since its a ball powder it flows well and gives consistent loads for me. I like 43 grains and a 150 gr. boat tail for my FALs.

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by spatin
Hi Jerry. Next time we ge out to Frontier Range (when the weather clears) you are welcome to come and fire over my chronograph if you like.

Right now I have some LC brass loaded up with 41.3, .6, .9 and 42 gr of 2460. Hope I can get to NATO velocity. So far the accuracy is "ok" and no pressure signs up to 41.3 grains.

Once I find something my rifle likes, I can start production. Not there yet, but the weather is slowing me down.

Sidney



We had the range to ourselves today (frontier) no wind until the end (1pm).

[Deltaten]

Hmmmm? No reply from GSF on components...
Oh well....

I have finished that last of the "re-builds" Went with 42 gr of WW846. Should at least cycle the action. A slight ring on the ogive should not affect this ammo for plinking and testing. I might need to get into the collet with the Dremel and ease the mouth of the collet. Seems to be a definite edge there !

I reduced that 44.8 load by approx. 5% to 42 gr and hope all is good. I realize that volume, pressure and speed are not necessarily linear ; but if I reduce volume/wt. by 5% I can expect around the same reduction in speed, give or take, to <2750 fps. Extrapolation from load books and reports here indicates somewhere's between 2680 and 2730fps....just what I was hoping to hit:D

Spring has sprung and the range will be useable soon. I will report actual chrono figures at that time

Best,
Paul

[spatin]

It was snowing up here yesterday morning (Saturday) so going to the range never entered my mind. We'll have some nice weather soon enough.
Sidney

Originally posted by jerrymrc


We had the range to ourselves today (frontier) no wind until the end (1pm).

[jerrymrc]

Very interesting Jerry. By any chance did you Chrono the revised 2460 load?

Finally I have done so.

2671
2659
2667
2650
2658

This was at 10' from the Oehler 35P. I also tested my generic "here shoot this" when I take people shooting and do not want allot tied up in ammo costs loads.

Mixed commercial brass.
M-80 pulls
WLR primer
42.5 IMR 4895

2590
2609
2579

All out of a std 21" barrel.

[spatin]

Good info Jerry.

I used 42 gr. of AA2460 with the 147fn's and CCI-200 primers in LC Match cases on my last CMP shoot. They were very accurate in my own M1A. One of the best scores I ever shot and had nice tight groups (for me anyways, ha ha).

I haven't tried that load in the FAL yet, but if my FAL likes that load I think I'm going to commence production.

Have you tried using your Lee turrent press for the .308 loads yet? If it works as good on rifle brass as it did with the .45 ACP, that should be a quick and easy way to increase production rate without having to choke up a lot more money for a Dillon.

Sidney

[Arby]

Sid,

I may be jumping into this thread half cocked, but I always loved the Sierra 125 gr. Spitzers propelled with IMR 4895. I tried it first because it was recommended for the Garand. It was a sizzler in one of my M1s with a new barrel. It also worked well in my first Steyr barrelled FAL. Then I got lost with a ton of various cheap military .308 ammo. I started working up loads for the M1A, but got sidetracked.

Anyway, I would suggest trying the Sierra 125gr. Spitzers for '06 or .308 loads, if accuracy is primary over terminal ballistics.

On a personal note, why do the "Registered C/A" stickers of yore, so plentifully found on the oilfield stickers of 30 years ago, have the quote: "Jus like Patin's duck"?

Just curious, from one "Coon Ass" to another.

[spatin]

I don't remember the whole deal about Patin's duck. Something about don't give a quack ..

Sidney

[jaykden]

my fav is

-168 noselr J4

-42 grains of IMR 4895

-win brass

any large rifle primer. have tried several types and all seem to group the same.

[spatin]

What gets interesting, Paul, is having a nice black ring around the "seriously flattened" primers. No more of that N-550 for me in my FAL!
Lately I have been running 42 gr of AA 2460 over a CCI200 primer with a 147 gr FN FMJ BT bullet in mil-surp match brass. Very nice results and no hot load issues. 2650 fps average. Accurate round.
Sidney

Originally posted by Deltaten
Update / range report..

44.8 gr of WC846 is way too hot for my FALs and seriously hot for an almost new Savage sniper that tried 'em on! THat boy had trouble swinging the bolt up to eject! Once he got it up, allwas OK, tho . The Ishy Enfield took e'm in stride, and it "felt" like more of a push than the thump from S/A ammo???

Hi of 2919 and a low of 2895..most at or above 2900 fps!

A tad warm-ish. No overt signs of pressure, aside from the serously flattened , but not cratered primers.

"Shorty" don't like 'em much, so a collet type puller is in my immediate future :D
Hopes this helps someone else out that is using data-less powder;)
\
Paul

[snolden]

I have read thru this thread a couple times.

What is the powder capacity difference between LC surplus brass and say, Hornady or Black Hills commercial brass?

I have worked up a light load with the Widener's 145 gr FMJBT's of
Hornady Brass trimmed to 2.005
41.5 gr IMR 4895
CCI Large Rifle (200)
2.77" COAL due to cannelure crimping.

I hope to push this to 43.5 but it works well now. Much better than SA surplus.

[Racer]

Heres the results from the brass I measured that I have on hand.

MFG Brass Wt Water Wt
Rem Com 166.24 54
Win Com 157.05 54.1
Fed Com 177.8 53.4
LC 84 180.2 54.8
Hirt 79 168.36 55.96

Racer :shades:

[spatin]

I'm trying to find a source for some good quality mil-surp pulls 147 gr FMJ BT bullets. Anywhere around 150 gr would be ok. Does anyone know of any places with some good deals out there?

I need to stock up before they outlaw components like they did in England.

Sidney

[maxhush]

I was rather surprised to see no WW748 loads posted. Back in the day I recall folks using that for 308/7.62x51 loads. Any particular reason why it fell out of vogue?

[BlasterLP]

Anyone using RL-15 have any pet loads for 125 gr or 150 gr Nosler BT's?

picked up some of these pills at an auction along with some pulled 173 gr SMK's and would like any suggestions for work up loads for the FAL please.

I also have 3 or 4 types of H rifle powders,
most IMR's, Benchmark, Win surplus to work with, Varget has been un-obtainable when I have been able to look for supplies so that load data is just getting bookmarked for later.

thanks
LP

[spatin]

OK I may get a silly answer to a silly question here, but what is the procedure for getting "water weight" and what does it mean? Are you referring to the volumetric capacity of the case?
Sidney

Originally posted by Racer
Heres the results from the brass I measured that I have on hand.

MFG Brass Wt Water Wt
Rem Com 166.24 54
Win Com 157.05 54.1
Fed Com 177.8 53.4
LC 84 180.2 54.8
Hirt 79 168.36 55.96

Racer :shades:

[spatin]

Re-Post:

I'm trying to find a source for some good quality mil-surp pulls 147 gr FMJ BT bullets. Anywhere around 150 gr would be ok. Does anyone know of any places with some good deals out there?

I need to stock up before they outlaw components like they did in England.

Sidney

[DYNOMIKE]

Originally posted by maxhush
I was rather surprised to see no WW748 loads posted. Back in the day I recall folks using that for 308/7.62x51 loads. Any particular reason why it fell out of vogue?

I tried W-748 with 4 different loadings, none of which impressed me.. May have been my load choices I just don't know? Not to say it's not a great .308 Powder but for me it's a better .223 Powder..

The Load I worked up for .223 Ammo has proven quite good and has now been tested in about 10 different rifles.. All with very good results and 100% Function.. I decided to use the 9 lbs of W-748 I have for that and quite dickin around wasting it on .308 load development.. While it meters perfectly, and is an excellent power to work with it's been relegated to .223 Ammo here...

For .308 the Loads I've settled on using VARGET and AA2520 yielded much better results then any I got with the W-748 and with less effort as well...

Seems I have also read that W-748 is pretty HEAT sensative...

A bit more info here worth reading I think as some have has very good results with W-748..
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=250832

[EricCartmanR1]

I really like Varget, it seems to be consistent no matter what the temperature is.

It was about 105 degrees today and I was getting about 2650 FPS (out of a 20" AR-10) using the following load:
-- 44 gr Varget
-- 147 gr Winchster FMJ
-- CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers
-- NATO Brass
-- No Crimp
-- 2.78" OAL
In January when it was about 40 degrees I was also getting about 2650.

10 shot group:
http://images50.fotki.com/v1530/photos/9/932051/7146777/PlinkingLoad3-vi.jpg

[EricCartmanR1]

Today I also tried

42.8 gr of H335
147gr Winchesters,
NATO brass
CCI 200 Primers

I was getting 2750 FPS. This is on par what I get with South African and Lithuanian GGG. I was not getting any signs of over-pressure whatsoever, but it is still a little too hot for my taste, especially for a plinking load. Next I am going to try 41.8 and 42.3 to see how that does.

[spatin]

Originally posted by EricCartmanR1
I really like Varget, it seems to be consistent no matter what the temperature is.

It was about 105 degrees today and I was getting about 2650 FPS (out of a 20" AR-10) using the following load:
-- 44 gr Varget
-- 147 gr Winchster FMJ
-- CCI 200 Large Rifle Primers
-- NATO Brass
-- No Crimp
-- 2.78" OAL
In January when it was about 40 degrees I was also getting about 2650.

10 shot group:
http://images50.fotki.com/v1530/photos/9/932051/7146777/PlinkingLoad3-vi.jpg

[Blaster]

Yes Sidney, you were going to say -------------:?

[spatin]

Originally posted by Blaster
Yes Sidney, you were going to say -------------:?

Oh, I got sidetracked, so sorry.

What I was going to say was...

That sure is a nice target and load.

Now if I could only find some Varget ............

Sidney

[concretus]

Okay!!! how about using Varget with commercial brass (Win) and 165gr bullets?
:biggrin:

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by concretus
Okay!!! how about using Varget with commercial brass (Win) and 165gr bullets?
:biggrin:

I do not see a problem other than you may wind up with an extra grain or so VS a LC case.

[Cyclic]

My current pet loads:

308 LC brass, Winchester primers, 147gr bullets, and 43grs of H4895, great reliable load with no pressure problems. (H4895 lists 45grs as max load with 147's)

223 LC brass, Win primers, 55gr bullets, and 25.3 grs of H4895, extreemly good load, runs great in my 11.5 shorty and 16 carbines. Vel of 2690 out of an 11.5 barrel and is just barely above the start load.

I'm loving that I can use the H4895 for all my rifle loads, next up is finding a good powder that handles my pistol loads- 9mm, 38 special, 357 mag, 40, and 45.

[concretus]

"I'm loving that I can use the H4895 for all my rifle loads, next up is finding a good powder that handles my pistol loads- 9mm, 38 special, 357 mag, 40, and 45."


Try Unique for 9mm, .38, and .357; and W231 for .40 and .45
:shades:

[concretus]

Originally posted by jerrymrc


I do not see a problem other than you may wind up with an extra grain or so VS a LC case.

I was going to try 44-45gr of Varget in Win brass w/ 165 Sierra HPBT. :beer:

[Dirt1042]

Originally posted by spatin


Oh, I got sidetracked, so sorry.

What I was going to say was...

That sure is a nice target and load.

Now if I could only find some Varget ............

Sidney

I just bought a couple of 1lb jugs. It's starting to show up on the shelves again here.
I still can't find any LR primers around here though:(