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View Full Version : moses ATF ordeal


W.E.G.
October 28, 2006, 09:10
from
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=144699

Moses comments copied and pasted here because the original thread had to much extraneous BS.

Originally posted by moses
The rifle in question never doubled on me and I shot it in numerous matches.

The atf got it to double by putting the selector on FA and trying many different types of ammo until they found one with a super soft primer that would double when the hammer followed the bolt home

At the actual test firing that we conducted there were 12 tests with 4 types of ammo and only the Winchester hunting 308 doubled and it did it only twice.

The problem was a worn out firing pin spring.

I never tried to shoot the fal with the selector on FA for the obvious reason of knowing that it could only fire out of battery that to do so would be risking a dangerous outcome.
I also would never shoot expensive hunting ammo $15 a box of 20.

The HTS set (DSA) was not doubling

I work with a Class 2 manf. and I have no reason to shoot a illegal MG we have all the legal ones we could ever need.

The ATF agent that confiscated my FAL's did not do the test he took the rifles to the tech branch in DC where they were "tested"

After many months and $ my lawyer, expert witness and I got to do our test with the ATF and we video taped it and that is when the truth was shown.

A local gun dealer here in NC By the name of Dan D. who for some reason did not like me actually turned the ATF my way by telling them a bunch of lies.

After the many man hours spent on my behalf I think the atf just tried to salvage a conviction of an innocent person to justify all the time spent in their investigation of me.

It is a long story but this sheds light on the jist of it.

I just this week was given back my property except for the one rifle that malfunctoned.

Thanks to dilegent work by my Lawyer.


Originally posted by moses
The gun was not seen at a public range to start this, like I said before an asswipe told the atf a bunch of lies that is what directed their attention to me.

I have shot this gun numerous times at public and private ranges with no problems, even let a couple of deputy sheriffs shoot it

They (atf) did try to sink their claws into me they just lost!

Blood of Tyrants
October 28, 2006, 10:17
The ATF doesn't give a crap about anybody. They are completely willing to imprison a person on a malfunctioning rifle.

And people wonder why gun owners hate the ATF.:mad:

Borsig
October 28, 2006, 11:47
I have to add my .02 here.

I shot this rifle more than once. It was a really nice and very accurate STG. I shot with moses alot when he used it. Hell the damn thing was surgically attached to him lol. Ive seen ALOT of rounds put through this rifle and NEVER did it double once that I saw. We shot on the same team at riverside for the 3 man section almost every time I was there.

This is the very same rifle that held (and I think still does) the speed shoot record at riverside. "Fred" even wrote an artice in SGN claiming it was HIM who shot the record with it. LIES. I was there when Moses broke the record with this very rifle himself.


As for "dan", well everyone here knows what he did to bring the ATF eye down on him. He felt the pressure, and tried to lie and give them someone innocent to save his own ass, hoping they wouldnt find out what HE did. All it did was cause Moses alot of grief, and delay Dan's problems.

The bottom line is they had to try HARD to make this rifle double. High soft primers and a weak firing pin spring caused a rare double. This does not make an automatic.

I consider moses to be a good friend, and what these people ut him through really burns my ass.

gunnut208
October 28, 2006, 12:13
What's the best way for a gun owner to protect themselves from these types of Abuses?

Will joining the NRA as a lifetime member result in reducing your legal fees by them (NRA) offering the help of Lawyers?

Just wondering, and glad to see Moses did well!

Pistolwiz
October 28, 2006, 12:15
What the ATF does is the tip of the iceburg as far as what .gov does/will do.

Law? What freakin law? (Sez the .gov agent) I'll do what I have to, whenever I want to, to make any case I want to, to further my carreer! (Not all of them...but enough.)

We not only see this kinda crap with the ATF. It's also the IRS, DOJ, FBI etc.......

It's not about the truth. It's about what can be gotten away with. Thank God that they didn't get away with it against Moses. But still it cost him part of his life and treasure. That in itself is bad enough!

ftierson
October 28, 2006, 13:21
What's wrong with you guys, anyway...?

I've never seen so many nasty comments about the federal agencies established to help us out...

I can't believe that any of the alphabet agencies would be involved in illegal activities or harassment of citizens or worse simply for furthering the careers of certain individuals or increasing agency budgets...

I can't believe that any of them would entrap people, or shoot their innocent wives and infants and dogs, or use flame-thrower tanks against US citizens and burn scores of citizens (including infants and small children) to death after harassing them for days...

I can't believe that 'technical branch' people would tie shoe laces to semiauto firearms to cause them to fire a couple of rounds automatically and then prosecute the owner of the firearm that they've (BATFE) altered and do their very best to ruin that person's life...

What's wrong with you guys, anyway...?

(And I'd put my normal smilie face here, but none of this is funny...)

Forrest

By the way, the Chinese government killed a few adults at Tienamen Square because they were actively protesting against the State. I'm certainly not saying that I agree with what happened there, but we've punished the PRC government for nearly two decades for it. The US government killed scores of it's own citizens (including infants and small children) just because our government didn't like them or the fact that they were doing their best to be self-sufficient. No one was punished for their murders...

Some were even promoted...

Yup, I just can't understand why you guys think that the alphabet agencies aren't working hard to help us all out...

(And, Johnny, I'm really sorry for your ordeal. Hang in there...)

Scott V2
October 28, 2006, 17:50
It is ridiculous that this even happens. Even though I didn't want to, I have put semi-only selectors on everything in order to keep the fools at bay. I have found it difficult to explain my hobby to others without raising an eyebrow.

Richard Bird
October 28, 2006, 22:25
http://www.hunt101.com/img/445388.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/445390.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/445389.jpg

spatin
October 28, 2006, 22:39
I wonder if someone could tell me the name, etc. of the lawyer (although we prefer to be called attorneys) who helped moses through this ordeal. I would like to talk to him and get some information that might assist me in helping my gun toting friends here when the time comes, and I think it will come.
Sidney

cobrasks
October 29, 2006, 15:43
I'm not sure if I even want to comment in
this thread . :confused:


I have long thought that part of our problem
(our as in gunowners) is that we have spent
to much time and money on the defensive.

We can NOT win ground with this strategy.

We must higher our own army of attorneys ,
and go on the offensive.

There must be a way to file lawsuits against
these people.
These "make an example out of BS to further
my carreer " types.

We should find a way to prove their misdeeds,

in court !

We need to find a legal way to have people
removed from their positions,and face
prosecution and /or lawsuits.

Many of these reocurring problems are
caused by individualsin our government.
We must find a way
to have these individuals removed,and
set a precedent
while doing so.

A permanent fix,not a bandaid over a deep
stab wound.

msnyder
October 29, 2006, 16:45
The problem lies with the way the law is written. It needs to be amended so that malfunctioning weapons are not considered machine guns.

Title 26 USC sec. 5845 (b)
b) Machinegun

The term "machinegun" means any weapon which shoots, is designed

to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more

than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of

the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of

any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and

exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use

in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of

parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in

the possession or under the control of a person.

Abominog
October 29, 2006, 22:01
I didn't want to junk up this thread, but I don't think this is "junk".

A well documented case of government abuse is well chronicled in the book "Tyrannosaurus Sue" by Steve Fiffer. That's the fabulous T. Rex skeleton that was found and is now in the Field museum in Chicago.

Don't think it's just ATF. Read this book. Some assclown prosecutor thinks he has a case, brings in the machinegun toting goons, then the government spends literally millions of dollars flying around the world to build a case. When it's apparent the case is crap, they start to make up other stuff. There is no logic, no common sense, no common good- just rabid persuit of perverted justice.

What it comes down to is that you might be right, but you'll be broke. It is a sad fact that some poor bastards get to experience this the hard way.

Read this book. It's not about guns, it's about bones. But really, it's a factual account of government waste and abuse.

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Tyrannosaurus-Sue-Extraordinary-Largest-Fought/dp/0716794624/sr=8-1/qid=1162177349/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-4134017-6299835?ie=UTF8&s=books

ftierson
October 29, 2006, 22:10
Originally posted by msnyder
The problem lies with the way the law is written.

Abominog's point, of course, is that the problem doesn't lie with the way the law is written...

I'm not trying to say that it isn't a good idea to have this law rewritten along the lines that you mention because I think that would be a good idea...

I'm just saying that rewriting this law won't fix the problem of a bureaucracy running amok...

Forrest

JohnnyV1966
October 30, 2006, 07:59
I think that given the problems that Moses had encounterd, it would make a great deal of sense to limit or reduce governmental immunity. That way when the government brings a case against someone and they lose...an individual would have recourse to sue the government and its AGENTS to compensate persecuted individuals for their legal costs and other damages. Those in goverment would be then be required to excercise good judgement when bringing cases that the legal costs can alone be ruinous.
I believe by doing this our rights as citizens will be more secure, as people will be eboldend to fight for their own, and our rights within in the legal system against excesses of govermental power and abuse.

AzDak
October 30, 2006, 17:42
The problem lies in accountability.

It's almost impossible for an government employee 'working in good faith' to be prosecuted as they carry out their duties.

The blanket protection of Federal and State workers is only strengthened by the fact that the federal and state agencies won't police each other. Who's going to hold an overzealous federal prosecutor accountable? His boss? The guy who will be hung out to dry if something comes up smelling bad?

In cases where bad faith exists, or when prosecutors egregiously overstep their bounds, they should be held accountable. Disbarred at a minimum and imprisoned more than likely.

gunsmith_tony
October 31, 2006, 19:00
The problem lies in accountability Randy Weaver can tell ya all about it.

GWS
October 31, 2006, 23:45
There is a remedy as far as the agent's accountilbity is concerned. Forgive me for forgetting the actual title and code, but if an federal agent is found guilty of civil rights violations then the agent(s) themselves, not the agency are liable for damages.....Now if I remember correctly, did not the Justice department under J. Ashcroft state definitively that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right? It seems to me that Moses would have a case here. Datbl would be a better authority on this than me though.

The unfortunate part of this equation is the ungodly cost of hiring the right lawyer to take a case like this. If the case was won the litigant could recoup their losses, but how many years and how much money up front would it take. I'm sure Moses is so sick and tired of lawyers fees and Federal Govt red tape he just wants to recover his property and go home. I am truly enraged over this type of action.

TNT ARmoury2
May 26, 2008, 16:46
Originally posted by GWS
There is a remedy as far as the agent's accountilbity is concerned. Forgive me for forgetting the actual title and code, but if an federal agent is found guilty of civil rights violations then the agent(s) themselves, not the agency are liable for damages.....Now if I remember correctly, did not the Justice department under J. Ashcroft state definitively that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right? It seems to me that Moses would have a case here. Datbl would be a better authority on this than me though.

The unfortunate part of this equation is the ungodly cost of hiring the right lawyer to take a case like this. If the case was won the litigant could recoup their losses, but how many years and how much money up front would it take. I'm sure Moses is so sick and tired of lawyers fees and Federal Govt red tape he just wants to recover his property and go home. I am truly enraged over this type of action.

US Code 1983.

gunsmoke
May 27, 2008, 00:07
Originally posted by TNT ARmoury2


US Code 1983.



that is 42 USC 1983

Denying civil rights under color of authority. There is no prescriptive period (statute of limitations) and NO limit to civil liability. Some seriously BAD shit if you happen to be in a District in which you can assemble a sympathetic jury.

aussiedave
May 27, 2008, 22:07
remember the DUKE LACROSS team, that was a case of a prosicutor who needed to get reelected and decided that the black vote was what he needed so he lied, falsafied records, pressed charges, ignored witness statements that did not help his case, he is in jail now, this is what should happen,

dakdak
May 28, 2008, 14:06
One important thing to remember about the DUKE case is that some of thje families of team members are quite wealthy and therefore had all the cash necessary to hire lawyers with staff to do the job of making a real case as well as PR people to get their side of the story out there...before the public.

Gun owners without millions in their pockets need to organize now around legal issues, file suits, and be prepared for legal and public relations battles when the feds try to retaliate.

Things can be done without a lot of money.

Mr. Heller, the security guard in Washington, D.C. that really started the suit against the DC gun ban, does not have a lot of money. But he, and now his co-plaintiffs, as well as their lawyers have all stuck with it and I believe they will win in the Supreme Court.

If we do not start now we will find ourselves, someday, under martial law and without allies, both inside and outside the law enforcement community.
That will be grim, very grim.

PatriotSTG58
July 06, 2008, 02:32
I've seen some FALs that goto the FA Position, but are not Full Auto... DSA FALs seem to never do this. Its almost always Imbels, Centuries and what not.

IS it illegal to have a FAL with a selector switch that can goto the FA position, even if it is not FA?

keiser
July 06, 2008, 19:16
Originally posted by PatriotSTG58
IS it illegal to have a FAL with a selector switch that can goto the FA position, even if it is not FA?

No, but that alone will get your weapon seized by atf.

PatriotSTG58
July 06, 2008, 19:24
I have seen FALs that are like that...I understand that all you have to do is swap out the safety for a DSA Safety. How do you swap out the safetY?

Kyrottimus
July 07, 2008, 14:30
Originally posted by PatriotSTG58
I have seen FALs that are like that...I understand that all you have to do is swap out the safety for a DSA Safety. How do you swap out the safetY?

Remove the magazine.

Clear/Check your FAL (rack the action back, making certain the hammer is locked back).

Put it on safe.

Break the action open, and rotate the safety up (beyond safe), and it should wiggle it's way out of the lower.

Reverse steps with new safety.

republic
July 07, 2008, 15:16
Did moses ever get recompense for the eminent domain-ing of his STG? If he wasn't charged with NFA violations, then the government's seizure of the weapon should be paid for (at the least). I take it that the government "cut him a deal." "We keep your gun so we don't look like total @$$es and we will not bring up any more false charges against you." Nice deal :(.

republic

rustyswarf
December 26, 2008, 16:46
Met moses once several years ago at a shoot. Shame that happened to him. To illustrate how crazy the gov. is, I just got through reading a book, "U.S. Customs, Badge of Shame" It detailed how a female customs agent detected, and tracked cocaine being smuggled into the US from Mexico in railroad tank cars. She scored the biggest drug bust in U.S. Customs history at the time--over $8 million dollars worth or cocaine in one railcar. Her reward? Her bosses SHUT DOWN THE FUNDING FOR HER DRUG INVESTIGATION!!!! Tell me something is not going on, and make me believe it.