7.62 x 39 boxer brass ?

[owlcreekok]

Where can I get two or three hundred pieces of once fired ?

Yes, cheap(er). I would have thought that the US dod would have had some of it thrown out somewheres.

[Temp]

Can't say that I've ever seen X39 offered as once fired.

You may get a decent bulk rate price on some new from Graf & Sons,.... I dunno, haven't looked at their place in a while.

[Bayport_Bob]

Keep an eye on eBay.

[gunsmith_tony]

Originally posted by Bayport_Bob
Keep an eye on eBay.
Thats where I got my last 500.

[gunsmith_tony]

Oh, and remember...Remington brass uses small rifle primers.

[owlcreekok]

Originally posted by gunsmith_tony
Oh, and remember...Remington brass uses small rifle primers.

How about THAT !

Learned sumpin. Thanx.

Made meself a saved search on Ebay today. Much as I hate Ebay, ain't gonna completely cut me nose off !

[gunsmith_tony]

Yeah...I don't like ebay and PayPal's firearm policies either. But I'm a survivalist...and a realist. I USE them. I USE them to get ME what I need. And besides, as with you, cutting my own throat does seem somewhat...counterproductive? :biggrin:

[owlcreekok]

Holy mackerel ! I stared looking at all the reloading stuff on Ebay this morning about 0430. 101 pages of that stuff ! Plenny 'x39 brass, SOME bullets, a few sets of dies. WTF is up with the .220 Swift and .257 Roberts dies ? Must be a #2 washtub full of those on there ? :eek:

I see the Dillon rigs ain't goin' cheap. :uhoh: Damn shame as long as I been makin' ammo I ain't got me a Dillon yet. I reckon I do pretty good without one. The Green Machine makes .45 ACP like nobodys biz. I think if I could run onto a deal on a Dillon I would go for it. Seems a bit pricey to change it over to various calibers tho'. (don't wanna turn this into a Dillon thread)

[MACV]

I think Grafs has unfired Lapua brass for about $32 per hundred.
30 rounds of loaded Lapua for $21.50. Those prices are right off the top of my head, I could be wrong. I have the flyer at home.

Make that $34 per hundred rounds of Lapua unprimed brass. I just checked their web site. Expensive stuff.

[yovinny]

Unless you'r reforming it for target ammo, Lapua is overkill.
Buy a case of the Winchester, USA white box ammo.
Shoot ammo, keep brass.

If you'r interested in the other 1/2 a case (250rds) I have sitting here, drop me a PM.

Cheers, YOOO VINNY

[owlcreekok]

Got a few goodies coming, should be a good start. Looks like the Ebay avenue is in a spell of high prices. Looks like a seller's market over there. Too rich for me.

Hey Tony ! What's your AK feed recipe ?

[Ksmith]

my AK's tear up brass, im not even sure its reusable once i get done with it.

[perdurabo]

Not possible to reload for as cheap as Russian steel cased can be bought, even with recent price increases. You MIGHT get close if you load .308 bullets instead of .311, but youll take a major hit with accuracy.

I reload only for value and AK ammo doesnt make the cut when you do the math. Many reload for accuracy, but reloading for accuracy in an AK is like putting premium gasoline in an old VW beetle, its just pointless.

[owlcreekok]

Originally posted by perdurabo
Not possible to reload for as cheap as Russian steel cased can be bought, even with recent price increases. You MIGHT get close if you load .308 bullets instead of .311, but youll take a major hit with accuracy.

I reload only for value and AK ammo doesnt make the cut when you do the math. Many reload for accuracy, but reloading for accuracy in an AK is like putting premium gasoline in an old VW beetle, its just pointless.

Don't agree with you Bud. $0.12- $0.16 a round is the average cost I end up with in blasting ammo. Understand, when I figure, I am figuring a minimum purchase of 16 to 32 lbs of powder (gets cheaper when you figure pull down powder) no less than 10k primers at a time and no less than 1k bullets at a time. I can get 3 to 5 loads from .223 and .308. I expect the same from x 39.

Accuracy ? With .308 bullets in an AK ?

I have not loaded any x 39 yet. However, last month, I went to the range and had the opportunity to shoot five rounds of another guy's ammo in one of the kid's AK. Shot the same as the Wolf crap we were banging as far as accuracy. The fellow had a custom bolt action that HE was shooting, in 7.62 x 39. I learned something from that guy. I asked what his load was and he responded with some weight I forgot of IMR 3031 and Speer .308 spire points. I forget the weight, prolly 120 or 130. He was posting 2" groups from sitting at 100 yards. I was really skeptical and I asked him about the .311 vs .308 issue. What he told me made sense and was only him repeating what his gunsmith told.

I quote:

"You are talking three thousandths of an inch difference, that is a thou and a half on each side. I dare you to find a box of a hundred high dollar bullets that DON'T have that much variance in at least 25% of the bullets in the box."

End quote.

Accuracy ? It is an AK-47. Minute of bad guy at a hundred. (apologies to Para Driver)

Two of the AK's I have recently shot spit perfectly useable brass. IF you could find it. THAT my friends, is a "fixable" issue.

:beer:

[gunsmith_tony]

I reload neither for accuracy nor economy. At least not specifically. I reload because...I can. Why do you have to have a reason? I like shooting my own stuff. I know where it came from. I know how it's been stored. I know it hasn't been wet...or pissed on by some irate, disgruntled former-communist who hasn't been paid in three months. It hasn't been rushed into production, perhaps lacking a reasonable amount of quality control, in order to meet the voracious appetite of several million Amarkin AK owners accustomed to having what they want...when they want it...like now.
As a reloader, I'm sometimes accused of "throwing my money away". Okay...I'm an Amarkin. I can waste food and money with the best of 'em. :biggrin:
We throw our money away on all kinds of crazy stuff all the time. Why draw the line here?

owlcreekok:
24.0 grains AA-1680
Winchester brass
123/124 grain FMJ .311" dia Winchester/IMI/Hornady (bulk)
CCI #34 Military primer

Book load... minimum: 23.0/maximum: 25.5 (AA-1680)

While I see no reason why .308 dia projectiles couldn't be used, it will, be it marginally, effect pressure and internal ballistics. So I would recommend working up from the starting load.

[owlcreekok]

Thanks, Tony. Also thanks to all for the discussion. Keep it going. No harm no foul. (I hope)

[Hank51]

Originally posted by owlcreekok
Where can I get two or three hundred pieces of once fired ?

Yes, cheap(er). I would have thought that the US dod would have had some of it thrown out somewheres. :D I have been told by several people that the 7.62x39 ammo is gonna get real scarce, have any of you guys heard anything like that, or is it just a bunch of BS from wanna be know it alls?:confused:

[perdurabo]

Originally posted by Hank51
:D I have been told by several people that the 7.62x39 ammo is gonna get real scarce, have any of you guys heard anything like that, or is it just a bunch of BS from wanna be know it alls?:confused:

I'll bet you a dollar the person that told you that was trying to sell you some highly marked up ammo.

Its BS, and anyone espousing that should be kicked in the nuts as far as I'm concerned.

[Old Sarge]

Quote:
While I see no reason why .308 dia projectiles couldn't be used, it will, be it marginally, effect pressure and internal ballistics. So I would recommend working up from the starting load


Infact I have an old Speer manual that shows the use of .308 dia bullets. 100grn and 110grn if I am not mistaken. Manual is from about 1978 or so. I will take a look tonight and see what all it said.

old Sarge

[BUFF]

Which diameter bullet to use depends on the rifle barrel you have.

Ruger Mini-30's use .308" barrels, so did their bolt action M-77's. Most of the import rifles use .311 barrels. I don't know about the bolt action sporters from CZ and others.

[owlcreekok]

Well sir, this is getting interesting. Oh BTW, throwing any bullets with that mold BUFF ?

I did a little looking at my old manuals, either I missed it, or none list the 7.62 x 39. I surfed the net a bit and found a fair amount of interesting info. Even some cast bullet recipes. I am kinda off on that idea after my experiment with an old Garand and cast bullets, however, I may try it. I have not looked at the mold design, but it is said that Lee makes a cheap mold that will work "as cast" and no gas check. (This ought to raise some hackles, heh heh)

I think I will slug the bore on one of these Romy's I got laying around as soon as I can dig out a slug that is suitable Don't put it past me to turn a bullet on the lathe for this purpose. :uhoh:

Anyway, I happen to have a few .311 bullets. About to have a few thousand .308's, but they will be too heavy, so, looks like drawing board time.

In any event, I could prolly buy a thousand rds of Wolf and have it last 5 years or more. The way I see it, I will have a good time with 200 - 300 rds of Winchester brass. On or off the range. :biggrin:

Anyone starts a firefight with me, they are going to have two things to consider.

1. They will likely have to shoot me in the ass.

2. If pressed into shooting back, it will likely be an FAL or an AR that does my talking. If at any distance at all then it will be an FN Mauser .270. If it is up close, it will be either a 1911 or a load of birdshot. :skull:

[Old Sarge]

Ok. Here is what I got or some of the highlights. Its from the Speer #9 reloading manual copy write 1974.

Quote:
Many SKS carbines have been brought to the U.S. by returning servicemen. This created a demand for ammunition and loading components.
Cases are best made from Norma 6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenauer case, but it is a major case reforming operation that includes reducing the case head diameter. This results in cases with thicker than standard case walls and slightly reduced capacities. Ammunition is available from Finland, but cases are berdan primed. These are loaded with a 122 grain bullet giving 2574fps in the test rifle. Lake City Arsenal cartridges have a 124 grain bullet theat gave an average velocity of 2546.
Speer bullets of 110 to 130 grains can be used in the 7.62x39. THe 110 grain data can be used with all .308 dia bullets of this weight. Bullets over 130 grains are not well suited as velocity with them suffers. The M43 cartridge is an interesting one to experiment with but, like the M1 Carbine cartridges, it has limited sporting usefulness. Power-wise, it is inferior to the 30-30.
End Quote.

It then list loads for the .308 dia 110grn Varminter and the 130grn JHP. But it dose show the test rifle as a custom 98 Mauser. So I would guess that it has a .308 dia barrel on it.

Old Sarge

[ftierson]

Originally posted by owlcreekok
"You are talking three thousandths of an inch difference, that is a thou and a half on each side. I dare you to find a box of a hundred high dollar bullets that DON'T have that much variance in at least 25% of the bullets in the box."

If I bought the cheapest bullets every made and found 0.003" differences in their diameters, I would be sorely pissed... That's like, for example, finding that the bullets run from .306 to .309...

Most .308" bullets really run about .3085" or so, and the tolerances in production lots (and often between production lots as well) usually run about 2-3 ten-thousands in diameter.

I'm not trying to say that .308 bullets won't work in a .311/.310 bore, but I'd certainly prefer to start with a .311 bullet if the grooves mike out at .311 or so...

I have never reloaded for the 7.62x39mm M43, even though I have all the equipment, several hundred new Winchester cases and a couple of thousand Remington 123gr .310 (or .311, I can't remember which off the top of my head) bullets socked away.

I doubt that I'll bother loading for my SKSs or AKs, but I plan on picking up a Czech CZ 527 Carbine Rifle in 7.62x39mm pretty soon and plan to play with loads for that...

I'm looking forward to it...

Forrest

[ftierson]

By the way, as an example of bullet diameter variance, Post 33 in the linked thread shows the results of measuring 20 rounds of CBC 1975 Military 7.62x51mm ammunition. The diameter of the bullets varied from .3081" to .3083"...

And thats just plain old military production, not high end, expensive commercial bullets...

CBC Ammo stats (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108692&perpage=30&pagenumber=2)

Of course, if you bump a .308 jacketed bullet with a guilding metal jacket of "normal" stiffness hard enough on the base (and a flat base bullet would be best), you'll upset it enough to cause it's expansion to fill a .311 bore. The only question revolves around whether you can bump it hard enough to do that within acceptable pressure limits.

For what it's worth...

Forrest

[Ksmith]

could you load those surplus .308 armor piercing rounds in x39?

that would be nice to have REAL AP x39 ammo.

[owlcreekok]

I had not really anguished over it much, Forrest. Since the guy at the range said that. Reading your post, I had to go check. :tongue: Sure enough ! If I tried REAL HARD I made a whole thousandth read from bullet to bullet in a bunch of Portugese pulls. :beer:

I am going to slug an AK bore today, if I get time. It just now occurs to me to drive a .308 bullet down one. A little measuring there might give me food for thought, eh !?!?

EDIT- Just went out to the shop !

I looked around in my early morning stupor and spied a few pieces of Wolf 7.62 x 39 ammo laying on the loading bench. Also in plain view was my Mitutoyo digital caliper.

"What the hell" I says to me self, out loud.

Carefully I takes a measurement of the bullet's diameter right next to the case mouth.

.3085"

Ahhh hell,,,NO WAY ! Grab another one.

.308"

Hmm, must be a little smaller above the case mouth. Where da hell is that bullet puller hammer thingy ?

Whap Whap Whap Whap

.3085"

Wolf factory AK food is THREE OH EIGHT.


Suits me. :biggrin:

[jerrymrc]

I just did the same thing Owl. Wolf=.308 my reloads=.310

Things that make you go ????? And I see Midway has the Nosler 125g (.308) on sale for $12.29 a box.

[gunsmith_tony]

Now see there! THATS why we needed a R-E-L-O-A-D-I-N-G forum.
How many among us, do you think, knew that YESTERDAY?
Why...it's like riding the crest of a virtual TSUNAMI of knowledge and new information!

well...something like that anyway.:biggrin:

[gunsmith_tony]

:rofl: No wonder my reloads tend to be more accurate than the common surplus. Turns out...it ain't got nuthin to do with my skill or years of experience, I'm just using BIGGER BULLETS! :rofl::rofl::rofl:

[jerrymrc]

Originally posted by gunsmith_tony
Now see there! THATS why we needed a R-E-L-O-A-D-I-N-G forum.
How many among us, do you think, knew that YESTERDAY?
Why...it's like riding the crest of a virtual TSUNAMI of knowledge and new information!

well...something like that anyway.:biggrin:

I think it is more like a bunch of drunks stumbling around in the dark trying to find the bottle of MD 20-20.:whiskey: :tongue:

[gunsmith_tony]

Originally posted by jerrymrc


I think it is more like a bunch of drunks stumbling around in the dark trying to find the bottle of MD 20-20.:whiskey: :tongue:
No! "ENLIGHTENED" drunks with AKM's stumbling around in the dark trying to find the bottle of MD 20-20.:whiskey: :tongue:

[instr8]

Sorry I got in on this so late. The .308 diameter work fine in X39 cartridges. I have done it plenty enough times to know it works fine.

Wolf now load some loads with .308 diameter bullets. Most die sets come with .308 expander assemblies.

Also, the 150gr bullets work fine too. Silver bear X39 SP ammo is 154gr.