Legal: full auto do's and don't's

[LiquidTension]

First of all I just want to make it clear that I have no intentions of modifying any firearm to make it full auto. I have no desire to go to jail and have my anus enlarged by a big hairy man. That being said, this info is just to satify my curiosity.

I understand that the safety sear must be installed in the rifle and there must be a cut in the receiver for the sear to fit in the gun. What else must be done to the FAL to make it full auto? Does the ejector block have to be modified? I ask because it's always referred to as a 'semi auto ejector block' and I'm guessing that there is a difference between the semi and full auto ejector. This question is purely academic in nature but like I said, I'm curious. Hey, I don't even have my FAL yet....

- LT

[kcsturm]

*** For informational purposes only ***

The ejector block is what determines if the FAL is semi or full-auto. The f/a ejector block has a slot cut to house the safety sear.

[LiquidTension]

In theory, would it be possible to make the cut in a semi auto block to change it into a full auto block or is the shape somehow different?

[yorick]

The ejector block does NOT determine full auto or not. A full auto ejector PLUS a sear cut will be needed to properly install the safety sear (aka auto sear)

Also, according to the ATF the mere presence of a full auto ejector block in a FAL varient does NOT nessesarily make the rifle in question a machine gun.

here is the text:
DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND FIREARMS
WASHINGTON, DC 20226

MAR 20 2000

903050:CHB
3311

Dear Mr. Bardwell:

This refers to your letter of February 17, 2000, in which you asked
if ATF would consider an FAL rifle assembled with a U.S. made
receiver and an FAL machinegun ejector block to be a machinegun.

The term "machinegun" is defined in section 5845(b) of the National
Firearms Act. An FAL style rifle with a machinegun style ejector
block could meet the definition of a machinegun, or it might not
meet the definition of machinegun. If the rifle was capable of
firing automatically, it would be a machinegun regardless of the
style of ejector block used.

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.
If you have further questions concerning this matter, please
contact us.


Sincerely yours,


[signed]
Edward M. Owen, Jr.
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

//end quote

Note the sentance "If the rifle was capable of firing automatically, it would be a machinegun regardless of the style of ejector block used." implies the converse, ie, if the rifle is not capable of firing automatically it would not be a machine gun regardless of the style of ejector block used.

see link for lot of useful info on ATF interpetation of the laws..
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/law.html

[gates]

******for informational purpose only********

two ways to make a legal semi into an illegal mg

1.buy a SEARCUT rec. gun ($2200-$3000) knock out the semi ejector and install the full auto ejector block and safety sear.

2.mill a new semi rec. and do #1.

either way is STUPID! if ya want a full auto
pay the 6k or so and enjoy it-you will spend that in the first 5 minutes defending yourself on an illegal mg wrap or so the boys over at the Bowers bds say!

aj

[LiquidTension]

Gates -

I already said that I had no intention of doing any of this, I'm just trying to understand the differences between the semi and full auto versions of the weapon. So I ask again - are the semi and full auto ejector block the same except for the "cut" that has been mentioned?

[yorick]

the sear cut is in the receiver.

the full auto ejector block has a slot for the safety sear to stick up through to catch the bottom of the bolt when it closes.

pic 1 sear cut with sear installed:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~tfriendshuh/sear_ins.jpg

pic 2 top view of receiver showing slot in ejector block (left side) where the sear sticks up to catch on the bottom of the closing bolt:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~tfriendshuh/topview.jpg

[gates]

yes the ejector blocks are the same with the exception of the cut. the two things that you HAVE to have for a full auto FAL are a sear cut receiver and an installed full auto ejector block w/safety sear. it is TOTALLY legal to have a non-sear cut rec. with a full auto eject. blk installed - no way to install the safety sear.

i know you said you had no intention of building an illegal gun - others who read this thread might not be as wise and i wanted to reinforce what a BAD idea it is.
aj

[camoguy]

Yorick perfect picture ..I have tried to explane this before and got that blank stare when saying that the auto(safety sear)sear can't fit in the rifle anyhow even with a fully auto ejector block.
*** this is for info purpose only and not to promote any modification of a FAL rifle into a machinegun **** With out your upper reciever having the thickness of a safety sear removed from the pivot post you can not fit athe safety sear.Without a full auto ejector block you can not fit a safety sear,it takes both of these to fit the auto sear.Then still you need a selective fire bolt carrier and selective fire selective switch(with plunger,hammer,etc). But for the unwise few doing this modification WILL only get you manditory jail time in the FED PIN.
--Knowledge is power....but don't let it go to your head.--

------------------

[Enquiring Minds]

LT, we *know* what you're up to... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif Just don't take it to a public range--keep it in the boonies, OK?... just kidding... DON'T DO IT MAN, 'cause like The Man is gonna getcha! He's gonna detect that full-auto burst on IR satellite man, he's watchin' for it from Cheyenne Mt. ... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/eek.gif

FYI: Actually it's not the bolt's tail dropping in front of the locking shoulder that trips the auto-sear, but the "ear" or ridge at the left rear of the carrier. The ridge on the left is about 6mm longer than on the right, and during its last maybe 1.5mm of forward travel, after the bolt is cammed down into battery, it just nudges the front of the auto-sear, releasing the hammer... over, and over...

I've never heard of FA vs. SA carriers, but just to cover its ass, Springfield Armory used to grind back the left ridge IN ADDITION TO non-cut upper AND SA ej. block... gotta be prudent!

[FALPhil]

Bwahahahahaha!

That satellite must be why all 10,000 users the users of the lightning link are in jail today! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif


Originally posted by Enquiring Minds:
LT, we *know* what you're up to... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif Just don't take it to a public range--keep it in the boonies, OK?... just kidding... DON'T DO IT MAN, 'cause like The Man is gonna getcha! He's gonna detect that full-auto burst on IR satellite man, he's watchin' for it from Cheyenne Mt. ... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/eek.gif



------------------
..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[LiquidTension]

Thanks guys. The pics really helped. I have my parts kit sitting here but my receiver won't be here for another few days so I didn't have anything to reference when y'all we're explaining stuff. Once more I'll say that I have no intention of doing this to my rifle (once I finally get it built). I don't even have any machinery that could perform such a task. Hell, my jig saw doesn't even work right! I have a Dremel and a set of good screwdrivers but that's it for quality tools. The rest is all stuff my dad got from his dad and half of it doesn't work. Nope, don't have to worry about me doing anything as stupid as a conversion...I'm too sexy to go to jail! Besides, I like hearing my farts. After jail all farts are silent...I'm not gonna explain the physics behind that one =)

[gunplumber]

The factory SAs also have a ring on the trigger return plunger that limits rearward travel. In FA setting, you can fire semi, like the AUG, bu only pulling trigger back a little way, but it requires serious trigger control. Pulling all the way back makes a long burst of loud noise to scare away bad guys.

Start to finish, my last FA conversion on a postban fal took 1 hour, including 40 minutes to build the gun! Doing same on a pre-ban would require much more time to weld-up the bolt carrier and then a handful of different parts.

Come to the Phoenix shoot on the 1-27 and shoot these post 86 DS full autos to your hearts content - and after the initial "that was cool" wears off, you'll discover just how useless the concept is.

------------------
T. Mark "Gunplumber" Graham
gunplumber@arizonaresponsesystems.com
Arizona Response Systems
5501 North 7th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85013
623-873-1410 http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com

[TimW]

Having shot them at the Pipeline shoot in Flagstaff, I can attest to what GP says...nice noisemaker, but I doubt you're gonna hit anything after the first 2-3 rounds.

I only saw one person, Viking Bill, shoot the FAL in FA and NOT MOVE! The guy is a rock...I have it on video...a full 30-0round S. African mag and he just stands there...I, on the other hand, got the shit kicked out of me every three round burst....

but I am a wimp! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif

Originally posted by gunplumber:
and after the initial "that was cool" wears off, you'll discover just how useless the concept is.

[yorick]

GP, while I'm sure you have more experience than I do in the full auto FAL realm, I did get a chance to shoot a guys post86 sample and I didn't think it was that bad..

He had a muzzle brake on a 20" STG kit and it seemed very controlable. It was an indoor range though so the targets were only 50 feet away, but a guy could keep a 3-5 round burst on paper with very little effort. Dunno if he had any other special mods to reduce rate of fire or anything, I was a FAL newby at the time (actually it was that shoot that got me excited about the FAL 2 years ago in the first place!)

Was extremely LOUD though...

[gunplumber]

If anything, Barly, the way you shoot the battleaxe, most would assume it WAS a full auto.



------------------
T. Mark "Gunplumber" Graham
gunplumber@arizonaresponsesystems.com
Arizona Response Systems
5501 North 7th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85013
623-873-1410 http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com

[LiquidTension]

I'd love to come waste some ammo with you guys but I live across the country in a non Class III state so no luck for me =(

[Dr.J]

This has been a good learning session. I know little about FAL's so let me ask a dumb question. Do the grandfathered G series guns on the C&R list which have sear cut receivers also have FA ejector blocks?

------------------
Dr.J

[kev]

Very definitely NOT! They have semi ejector blocks and tampering with the block or pins is enough to send someone directly to the pokey. (always wondered why it's called the 'pokey'; I think I understand now) The sear cut guns also have many internals modified for semi only; carrier, hammer, selector. GP has gone into this in the past with all the details. The value of the sear-cut guns is due solely to collector interest of a well finished early commercial gun, with maybe a bit of 'forbidden fruit' thrown in by people who mistakenly think they're easier to convert in theory. Actually, GP says they are much more difficult with lots of parts replacement required.

[KWL]

Originally posted by Dr.J:
Do the grandfathered G series guns on the C&R list which have sear cut receivers also have FA ejector blocks?


Yes they do, so they will readily accept an autosear. Bad idea to do that, though, because it's a felony for non licensed individuals.

Here is a quote from an ATF letter dated Apr. 3, 1961, listing the differences that were made to convert full auto FALs into semi auto (only) rifles:


1. The change lever is blocked in such a way that it cannot be moved forwardly into full automatic position. The change lever thus becomes a standard safety.

2. The trigger return spring plunger has been modified to limit the rearward movement of the trigger, regardless of the position of the change lever.

3. The automatic sear has been eliminated.

[W.E.G.]

moved to FAQ