problems with 16inch carbine, lessons learned

[Tominkilleen]

I'm posting this note so that anyone with problems such as I've had might benefit. A while ago I got a 16 inch carbine built. It started out as a Fed Arms part SA/part STG kit. I put it all together and then decided that it was ugly, so I took it apart and took it to a smith in Austin. His task was to re-assemble, finish and while he was at it, cut the barrel and install a DSA lightweight brake. When I got it back it wouldn't function at all. I took it back and after some research here on the forums, we opened the gas port up progressively until it was .020 in accordance with Gunplumber's guidance here. Still no dice,we then progressively removed bits from the recoil spring until it finally functioned. Took it to the range to give it a workout, and after about 10 rounds, the gas tube (full length) blows off from the gas block. Re-installed it, figured that for what ever reason it had unscrewed or the retaining pin was too small or something. Fire again, tube comes off again, re-install, put in larger retaining pin, fire again, tube comes off, hair gets pulled out, get in car and drive home. I surmised that the threads were a little too light and the gas pressure was a little too much, so took it back and had him cut the gas tube and solder it into the gas block. Took it back to the range, set the gas on 4 and guess what? still fails to extract. Fired while adjusting the gas regulator all the way to all the way open, still no dice, pull out more hair. I was about to take it back and open up the gas port a little more when I remembered a trick that my dad taught me years ago. I packed the rifle full of rubbing compound and worked the action until both of my arms gave out. I completely disassembled the rifle in the shower and washed it with citrus cleaner and a scrub brush under the hottest water that my hands could stand, lubed the entire rifle (at this point, the citrus cleaner had removed ALL oil from the weapon) and reassembled. I put a healthy dose of break free on the bolt and carrier and interior of the receiver, worked the action several times and then went to bed. Today I took it to the range and ran 80 rounds of RG through it with 2 failures to extract on "3". I think it's about where I want it. I think that it will become better the more it gets shot in. My thoughts are that after the receiver was bead blasted prior to bluing, the slight roughness of the interior of the receiver was enough to cause drag that caused the failure to eject. I know that this is long, but I hope that maybe someone might avoid a little bit of frustration by learning from some of the pitfalls that I have stepped in. A picture of the rifle is on my picture page at www.txfalman.com. (http://www.txfalman.com.) I painted the furniture with fleckston paint after I'd seen someone here do it, I'm not sure that I like it, but it's damn sure the only rifle that looks anything like it at the range. I had 20 people walk up and ask me what the hell that terribly loud thing was, under a tin roof at the gun range, this little beast has a muzzle blast that is absolutely terrifying.

[RRotz]

glad you got it sorted out!

[EMDII]

Good lesson.

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1*.....Train Like You Fight: Second Place is NOT an Option.

E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II

[Cruzado]

Tom, by the pics on your website I see you're an O-3 at Fort Hood? Wish I'd known a fellow FAL'er was in the service only a few hours from my duty station in San Antonio when I was stationed @ Kelly AFB a few years back. Last time I did a purely stateside run as a C-5 pilot at Travis AFB, I put one down at Robert Gray AAF for a few days so the Army could use our jet as a load trainer (putting armor, CONEXes, etc. on and off in quick order). Could've brought some long guns on that one instead of sitting around wondering what to do in Killeen, TX.

[Chris Cross]

When I first starting shooting put together FAL's, my gunsmith always admonished me to lube the bolt and the rails inside the receiver very well. I was not used to this, and didn't do it. As a result I had a number of feeding failure, and the gun would short cycle. When I took it back to the smith, he would lube it up and all was well. I learned my lesson, FAL's apparantly like to be lubed, particularly when they are newly built kits and haven't worked themselves in yet. Love these things, unfortunately, as a Kalifornia resident I can only have what I was able to buy before 12/31/99...... Originally posted by Tominkilleen:
I'm posting this note so that anyone with problems such as I've had might benefit. A while ago I got a 16 inch carbine built. It started out as a Fed Arms part SA/part STG kit. I put it all together and then decided that it was ugly, so I took it apart and took it to a smith in Austin. His task was to re-assemble, finish and while he was at it, cut the barrel and install a DSA lightweight brake. When I got it back it wouldn't function at all. I took it back and after some research here on the forums, we opened the gas port up progressively until it was .020 in accordance with Gunplumber's guidance here. Still no dice,we then progressively removed bits from the recoil spring until it finally functioned. Took it to the range to give it a workout, and after about 10 rounds, the gas tube (full length) blows off from the gas block. Re-installed it, figured that for what ever reason it had unscrewed or the retaining pin was too small or something. Fire again, tube comes off again, re-install, put in larger retaining pin, fire again, tube comes off, hair gets pulled out, get in car and drive home. I surmised that the threads were a little too light and the gas pressure was a little too much, so took it back and had him cut the gas tube and solder it into the gas block. Took it back to the range, set the gas on 4 and guess what? still fails to extract. Fired while adjusting the gas regulator all the way to all the way open, still no dice, pull out more hair. I was about to take it back and open up the gas port a little more when I remembered a trick that my dad taught me years ago. I packed the rifle full of rubbing compound and worked the action until both of my arms gave out. I completely disassembled the rifle in the shower and washed it with citrus cleaner and a scrub brush under the hottest water that my hands could stand, lubed the entire rifle (at this point, the citrus cleaner had removed ALL oil from the weapon) and reassembled. I put a healthy dose of break free on the bolt and carrier and interior of the receiver, worked the action several times and then went to bed. Today I took it to the range and ran 80 rounds of RG through it with 2 failures to extract on "3". I think it's about where I want it. I think that it will become better the more it gets shot in. My thoughts are that after the receiver was bead blasted prior to bluing, the slight roughness of the interior of the receiver was enough to cause drag that caused the failure to eject. I know that this is long, but I hope that maybe someone might avoid a little bit of frustration by learning from some of the pitfalls that I have stepped in. A picture of the rifle is on my picture page at www.txfalman.com. (http://www.txfalman.com.) I painted the furniture with fleckston paint after I'd seen someone here do it, I'm not sure that I like it, but it's damn sure the only rifle that looks anything like it at the range. I had 20 people walk up and ask me what the hell that terribly loud thing was, under a tin roof at the gun range, this little beast has a muzzle blast that is absolutely terrifying.

[Falynx]

Tom,
I am no expert in the Fal and am new to this list.I recently read a note on the shortened barrel Fal and I recall that some require enlarging the gas port. In the shorter barrel, there is less time for the gas volume to push the piston. Opening the adjustment helps to a point but with increased pressure on the gas system. This may not be your problem, but you may want to consider checking with one of the expert gusmiths who are very familiar with the Fal gas system for further tips if your problem continues.
Falynx

[FN74]

Tom,
Glad to see you got it together and functioning. I was the guy that did up the flekstone R1.

It does scrape off, but looks good for a while. I may try splatter paint next time and seal it in with the sealent.

Take care,
DJH

------------------
DEO VINDICE!

http://www.geocities.com/dixieboy1969/FNAssnLA.html

Check out FNAssnLA

[W.E.G.]

Wow. I think that deserves a special WECSOG award for the longest paragraph if nothing else.

2.5% failure rate now. Hmmm....
You think it will "wear in" and get better. I don't mean to piss on your parade, but what makes you think it won't just get worse?

You say failure to extract. Let's get picky about your terminology. Do you REALLY mean failure to extract? Or do you mean failure to eject? There is a BIG difference. When you have a failure to extract, that means the case doesn't come out of the chamber at all. Is that what you mean to say?

I suspect you mean to say "failure to EJECT." If that is the case, please tell us why it did not eject. There are at least two possible scenarios. One is the bolt did not come back far enough to reach the ejector. The other scenario is the bolt came back far enough, but the spent case failed to contact the ejector. Which situation applies to your rifle.

Who is the manufacturer of your receiver? Please don't tell me it is Hesse.

[Rat A Tat]

Looking at the pics on his website looks like a IMBEL Gear Logo.

[Tominkilleen]

a quick clarification on the failure to extract terminology, I guess it's actually a failure to eject-- originally, what it was doing was, the rifle would fire and the bolt would be pushed back about 3/8 inch and the fired cartridge would still be in the chamber, am assuming that the bolt cycled a bit, but not enough and pushed the fired cartridge back into the chamber, was very difficult to manually operate the charging handle to eject the spent cartridge. After working through the problems, the 2 failures that occured out of 80 rounds looked like this, one round was still in the ejection port with the front of the cartridge resting on the edge of the chamber, propping the bolt to the rear, pulled the charging handle, held to rear, tilted rifle to the right, spent case fell out, released bolt, chambered live round, fired 10 more in quick succession. Second malfuction was a classic stove pipe, bottom 1/4 of spent case was still in ejection port between bolt face and chamber, tilted rifle, pulled charging handle, spent cartridge fell out and ejected live round, cycled manually again and continued to fire. I think that the problem is basically fixed, would like 100% functioning of course, but I believe that with a little TLC poliching the internals and proper cleaning it will be okay.

The fleckstone is apparently going to hang in there well, it's been on there for a month or so and had a lot of handling. I applied five coats, hanging from a string in the garage. In between coats I placed all of the furniture in the oven on 120 degrees and left them in there for an hour. Once I had completed all of the fleckstone painting, I sprayed on at least 10 coats of hard outdoor clear coat, satin from walmart. while I was lubing it, I got a lot of breakfree on the furniture and wiped it off without any solving of the the paint. It's very rough and am hoping with a little of handling it will smooth out a bit, a little rough on the cheek while firing... once again, long post, I tend to be a little verbose while attempting to detail technical details.

Tom

[gunplumber]

I think yu're going at it totally the wrong way. Cutting springs, lapping - Sir, there is a fundamental problem here and screwing with good parts to try to fix it ain't the answer. Buy a new recoil spring, I/O, at a minimum, and a new piston. Probably a complete new gas system as a block corroaded bad enough to blow the tube out is probably leaking elsewhere as well. The gun should work ALL the time, and lock open between 3 and 4.



------------------
T. Mark "Gunplumber" Graham
gunplumber@arizonaresponsesystems.com
Arizona Response Systems
5501 North 7th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85013
623-873-1410 http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com

[Tominkilleen]

I neglected to mention that during the early trials and tribulations I tried several gas pistons, originally, it had a DSA piston in it, I tried 3 seperate original STG-58 pistons (all are straight and true) at different times and 4 different springs, now I'm back to the DSA piston. I bought a spring from DSA and am using it right now, all but one of the five springs are the exact same length, one is about 3/4 shorter than the rest. The piston/spring combo was my first inclination, but I don't think that's the problem. I'm thinking that I could've opened the gas port a little more, but I'll hang with what I've got. If the problem presists or gets worse, I'll open it up a bit more. IMHO when one deviates from the original design as much as this one, 5 inches off of the barrel and a muzzle brake further dissipating gas, there will be a few probs. I know that others have done this exact modification countless times before and have cracked the code. Right now the gas port is at .020. The problem might simply be that the kit itself had a mix of STG and SA parts and the SA barrel and gas system needs to be tweaked to the STG rear. I built another R1 kit from Harlen on the original length with a DSA standard brake and haven't had the slightest problem with it. I've fired about 500 rounds through it with one failure to eject. I'll keep updating this report as I fire it and see what happens with it. I'm deploying to Ft Lewis for 3 days starting tomorrow and will be shooting next weekend. I'm going to put about 200 rounds through it and keep track of what it's doing.

[Rhineland1]

I have built several STGs and have had the same problem that you speak of with each one. The problem was the bolt was locking up too tight between the locking shoulder and the barrel. I was able to fix this by filling the lock-up area on the bolt just a bit and lots of oil. This did not screw up the headspace as some of you are thinking. They work perfect now and its a standard procedure of mine.

[WJ-Polish Guy]

Originally posted by Tominkilleen:
I'm posting this note so that anyone with problems such as I've had might benefit...

Yes! Yes! Yes boys and girls, you lern and remember NOT to do things like Tomi did... Ha!

Worn-out kit to begin with, cut barrel, trashy gas system, headspace/chamber problem, cut recoil springs (that make them stifer not softer my man...) lapping assembled gun! What more?....

After reading some of the posts over my last few years here, I carrefuly choose my spot at range... minimum three tables from closest neighbor...

[WJ-Polish Guy]

Originally posted by Thomas:
I have built several STGs and have had the same problem that you speak of with each one. The problem was the bolt was locking up too tight between the locking shoulder and the barrel. I was able to fix this by filling the lock-up area on the bolt just a bit and lots of oil. This did not screw up the headspace as some of you are thinking. They work perfect now and its a standard procedure of mine.



Dammit another one! Is it a butcher day at fal files today?

Boys and girls take notice!

[shot out]

"I completely disassembled the rifle in the shower and washed it with citrus cleaner"

What a coincidence! I was just suggesting to our local gun range to have showers installed for this very reason!

[msnyder]

I've built 3 rifles from the Federal STG/R1 kits. 2 went together no problem. 1 needed some work. Gas piston was binding in a bent gas tube. Have you checked your gas piston to make sure it's not binding? If piston is moving freely, take GP's advice and get a new gas block. 29.00 at Gunthings.com, or you can get a new barrel with block for between $75 and $145 at the same place. Did you test fire it before you cut the barrel?

[Farmer from Hell]

I'll second what GP said. I think something is fundimentally wrong on the front end namely the gas block. They do wear out. Our local NZ collecter has special gauges to check to see if they are out of spec. Also how freely does the action cycle by hand? The SA guns have a lot of crud in them and there may still be some in the return spring tube. If you cleaned that good when you put it together disregard that idea.

FfH

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What part of Shall not be Infringed dont you understand pinhead?

[Rhineland1]

To WJ-Polish Guy

This is by no means a butcher job but a procedure for correcting the lock up angles between the bolt and locking shoulder, do you honestly think they go in there perfectly?. Also do you know what that angle is supposed to be in relation to the rear movement, by your reply Im sure you dont even have a clue what Im talking about. As for acuracy and reliability my rifles are way better than what Im reading about on this site.

Back to original problem I too would check the gas piston. It sounds like either it is slightly bent or the barrel/gas block is not at 12 oclock thus causing the rod to rub against tube pulling it out and not having enough force for full ejection. Im sure the problem is not with the gas block.

[Dan at VOW]

Hey Thomas, INCOMING!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif You have probably brought out the wrath of the Polish Wonder!!!!! Look out!!!!! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif WJ does make some typos, and sometimes comes across as a bit crass. But he is an engineer, has built several rifles, and once you get to know him is really a wonderful guy. Also has a great sense of humor. As for WJ, I would be proud to have him beside me if the SHTF. Dan at VOW.

[LTC B]

I've had a similar problem with my STG-58. I've fired it three times. The first two, it did fine.

The third time out to the range, it started to hang up. It would extract maybe 1/4", and I had to pull the "operating rod" (Gosh, I like saying that for some reason) back as HARD as I could to get it to fully extract the casing from the chamber, then to eject. Shoot another round, same malady. Gas system fully closed (no bleed off).

I thought it might be insufficient room for the extractor, but the inside of the Imbel receiver looks just like it does on my STG-58 stub. The piston seems to be fine, and if the PISTON were bad, why would it be hard to hand cycle? It's obviously hanging up on something.

The idea of putting some abrasive rouge on the high points seems good to me. What would you do, Oh Mark Gunplumber, in my situation?

[WJ-Polish Guy]

My man Thomas! Reading your oryginal post ```bout bolt locking to tight between locking shoulder and barrel(sic!) And your remedy beeing filling a bolt, my think YOU do not kinda know! Ha!... Yes you identified correctly one of the possible problems our oryginal poster Tomi expirience as headspace problem... But your remedy qualify you to BUTCHER category, Sorry!... Proper method is to headspace with gouge of your choice and replace shoulder with correct size one...
"..correcting the lock up angles..." WTF? My man? That angle is engineered into bolt reces and locking shoulder and asssured by tab on locking shdr. Those are probably one single most importand dimentions in whole gun... Messing with that angle or headspace may get you killed... (I wonder what method do you use to determine necesity of CORRECTION? Hmmm... eyebaling??...)
Be carefull with advices witch can do other people bodily harm.......... Please! I forgot "Please!" http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by WJ-Polish Guy (edited February 05, 2001).]

[garandman]

Originally posted by Tominkilleen:
[B]... still no dice, pull out more hair.... B]

tominkilleen -

Wear a hat. that way the first handful you grab, will be hat, and NOT hair.


http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif




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I let the M-1 do my talking...

[Rhineland1]

To Wj If you actually read my suggestion, it was to polish this interface not grind a new angle. And only a enginer would think the correct angle would be gauranteed, how arrogant! I do agree it is better to get a new locking shoulder but it isnt necessary, if you had any skill at all as a basic gun smith this operation is no problem, how do you think the locking shoulder got that angle in the first place.

I think the problem Major B has is also with headspace. Tell us Major B on the first two outings with your rifle how many rounds did you fire? and does your rifle sometimes have a problem feeding? Especially the last 1/4 inch. I diffenitly would not use an abbrassive, not yet anyway. Is the inside of your bolt carrier greased up? this wont eliminate your problems but it will help.

Nearly every single FN that I have seen that has a reliability problem is due to this bolt/locking shoulder problem. And I have played with a lot of them including the originals. Its a hard problem to diagnose and even more painful to fix but this is were the problem is.

[LTC B]

The first time I shot 1 round (grin). Well, it's true, it was my first shot, and I wasn't certain EXACTLY how the gas system worked, and I didn't bring the manual with me, so I decided to get mo bettah educated before I beat the rifle up. Then second time I shot about a hundred rounds, no problem at all. Only on the last time, and I haven't had time to go out since (I spend all of my time fooling around on the computer!)

Anyway, the rifle has been properly headspaced. I have a go/no go/field set from Brownells, and, in order, they chamber/almost chamber/ won't chamber at all, so I think I can rule that out. It is well lubricated, too, though I can try it again.

Also, if it extracts .25 -.375" shouldn't it have cleared the shoulder completely? The bolt doesn't really go back at all until it clears the shoulder, but it IS impacting something. Hmmm, I don't know.

Any more suggestions appreciated.

[WJ-Polish Guy]

Originally posted by Thomas:
I have built several STGs and have had the same problem that you speak of with each one. The problem was the bolt was locking up too tight between the locking shoulder and the barrel. I was able to fix this by filling the lock-up area on the bolt just a bit and lots of oil. This did not screw up the headspace as some of you are thinking. They work perfect now and its a standard procedure of mine.



Thomas! I just commented on what you said, not what you had in mind. Filling that is removing material with file, isn`t it? Or I have language problem here?.....


Myself I find arrogant when peoples belive they can correct mayor manufacturer like Steyr, their engineerig and craftsmen stuff... Dammit that is standard of exelence one may only f...ed up not improved!


Headspace problem is actualy simple to diagnose and check, thanx to FAL design. Just reqiure proper tools, gouges and procedures... Saluto!

[Rhineland1]

Major B, for the first 1/4 rear movement of the boltcarrier the bolt is still locked up. Even though your gauges show everything fine it isnt? Here is what you can do to rule out the locking shoulder. Remove cover and bolt assembly now remove bolt, place a round in bolt and slide it into the chaber, look closely at the rear of the bolt does it drop down smoothly most of the way or do you need to press hard to lock it down?

Next try same procedure by leaving cover off put bolt and carrier back in gun and round in magazine. slowly let bolt go forward and try to feel were the hang up is. My guess the last 1/2 inch. If so your locking shoulder is too tight for the ammo your using.

Yes its very wise to remove hammer for above procedure.

I have built on several Imbel receivers and never had to lap.

[Rhineland1]

To Tominkilleen I recommend you test your rifle the way I recommended to Major B, at the very least it will allow you to rule it out for good.

Major B I was just thinking is it possible that your receiver was crushed in a vise? does your bolt carrier slide in the rails just fine when the action is open.

Finially I just couldnt leave Wj alone. I too love FNs but once you build that STg on another receiver it is no longer a STEYR designed and built gun. No matter what the receiver manufacture says, the tolerances in machining will be off at least a hair thowing the angle off. As good as Steyr is the rifle is too heavy, and the controls suck compared to a L1A1 so it can be improved upon, nobody is perfect. Also I have experimented with the angles on the lock up area and you can remove a hell of a lot and change the angle without them thing-self destucting, just have to be carefull. Finially your spelling is worse than mine.

[LTC B]

I'll try sliding a DUMMY round into the chamber tonight and see if it slides in nicely. I'll report back tomorrow my findings. I imagine others besides TomInKilleen have this problem.

BTW, I was stationed in Fort Hood from 1988-1990 in the 31st AD BDE. I think that unit has since moved out to Ft. Bliss.

I lived in the West Fort Hood housing area, it was very nice.

[gunplumber]

Hey WJ. Any room at your table? I don't think a three lane distance is far enough. And I'll bring a set of Kevlar helmets too.

Oh - and Thomas - its 11 degrees and "filling" (sic) is not "polishing interface"

How about you wear a bright orange vest so we can all stay he heck away from you when you shoot - okay?



------------------
T. Mark "Gunplumber" Graham
gunplumber@arizonaresponsesystems.com
Arizona Response Systems
5501 North 7th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85013
623-873-1410 http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com

[Rhineland1]

Hey Gunplumber I was just haveing fun with Wj. That experimental work is just that experimental, not something that goes to the range, so you dont need kevlar. But it still doesnt change the fact that it works very well and I would compare that work to yours anyday (for reliability and accuracy only). Sure I think you have more knowledge and experience on the FN but I didnt see you suggesting anything (still havn't). As for filling or polishing just keep the angle the same and watch how well it works, dont knock it till you try it. Everyone here is trying to build these things to match grade specs+ and there shooting surplus ammo, something has to change and thats going to be at the locking shoulder, just about every instance.

[Steven]

Tominkilleen, I know this is a little off topic but I was wondering what your feelings are on confiscating the Bosnian's weapons?

[WJ-Polish Guy]

Mark! There are always Everglades, but I had incident once and do not like to go there alone... In that sense public ranges are safer, yet you still may unknowingly seat next to Thomas...

Thomas, even you kinda reckles individual I wish you well, I was young once. Hope you may even live to see your twenties, buy good insurance though http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by WJ-Polish Guy (edited February 05, 2001).]

[Rhineland1]

Say whatever makes you happy Wj but Im the only one who knows whats wrong with all these FNs, how they choose to fix it is there business. I have not heard one proposal, idea or solution from you yet, just a bunch of blah blah. As for you being an enginer and not being able to question or trouble shoot a project, you must be the type who programmed one of those NASA mars spacecraft but didnt check the other systems for compatability.

[msnyder]

I have used GP's tried and true method of using pin gauges to determine correct locking shoulder size for 6 FAL's so I've never had to file my bolt. I'm no gunsmith but I would imagine that filing the bolt could weaken the metal which could lead to a chipped bolt locking surface which would create excess headspace with possibly
catastrophic results. Is this the danger here or is it something else?



[This message has been edited by msnyder (edited February 05, 2001).]

[WJ-Polish Guy]

Sure you only one who know... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif

Originally posted by Thomas:
...Im the only one who knows whats wrong with all these FNs........ I have not heard one proposal, idea or solution from you yet, just a bunch of blah blah. As for you being an enginer and not being able to question or trouble shoot a project, you must be the type who programmed one of those NASA mars spacecraft but didnt check the other systems for compatability.

Hehe.. Areas of potential troubles were pointed by Gunplumber and yourself before I even got into disscusion, so why to repeat after somebody especialy pro like Mark?... ... All my posts in that tread were intended to point unsafe, damaging or even reckless repair practices. Thats it...

As for my trouble shooting abilities look on tread "Faliure to feed... Need your advice" by Mt Guerrila from 02-01-01, currently on page 5... Saluto! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/smile.gif



[This message has been edited by WJ-Polish Guy (edited February 05, 2001).]

[Rhineland1]

Well well what we have here is the makings of a competion gun shoot to bad you (Wj) live so far away it would be real fun.

Filing the bolt does not stress the metal and there is no chipping this is not a problem (thus far, 6 years). The amount removed shouldnt be more than .0005" the bolt was hardend much deeper than this. True going deeper wouldnt be good, but for most rifles they just need to be smoothed over the slightest bit to free up the action.

[Dan at VOW]

Oh but Thomas, WJ has friends all over! Especially in Texas, and in the greater Dallas/Ft.Worth area too! You will have to get together with them some time. Of course they might also want you to wear an orange vest! http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif Seriously though, all jokes aside. Most of us are realistic, we don't expect sub moa from an MBR, that was designed to be abused, issued with basic or no instructions, and built tough as a Mack truck. The FAL isn't inherently designed in a way to promote sub moa, not with the bolt lock up that it has. Most of us want something that is reliable, can be fixed or built at home without investing the equivalent of a new home (already there) in tools and specialty items for building just one rifle. I could have bought a bunch of M1A's, or bolt guns, but I chose the FAL. I like it, it looks cool, it's easy to adjust and to trouble shoot for the most part. Especially when you have people like GP, and Derek, George and Rich as well as the RKI's on the board. Like WJ. Hey, come on and set awhile, get to know some of the other fine folks here. Most of us will grow on you, like a fungus, but we will grow on you. http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif Hi, my names Dan, and I'm a FALaholic.

[gunplumber]

Thomas - looking at the cars that are on the road today belching smoke and the creative ways of getting them moving, I am not suggesting that your creative filing doesn't WORK, but is it wise? You have two parts that mate together at a critical angle to retain 50,000 cups pressure. One is designed to be replaced and/or exchanged to set the appropriate headspace, the other is designed to be one size only. You want to file on the permanent part, I suggest filing the adjustable part. Hey - filing the back of the bolt works - just ask CAI. But I think it is solving a symptom the wrong way. And maybe doesn't solve the original problem. The bolt-carrier interface is also designed to remain locked until pressure drops to a safe limit. Canging the camming angles on either may allow it to unlock prior to pressure dropping. Long term effect can be ruptured cases and ripped rims, as there is still too much pressure of the brass against the chamber walls as the bolt begins extraction (why you don't want a lubed or micropolished chamber.)

So I'm the last person to knock experimenting, but I have severe reservations on your choice of experiments.

Also, it is my assertion that any fal that only works with certain methods of lubrication and certain areas polished, has another fundamental flaw. These actions may back-door the flaw, but they are only addressing symptoms and not the problem.

Better to find the real problem.

------------------
T. Mark "Gunplumber" Graham
gunplumber@arizonaresponsesystems.com
Arizona Response Systems
5501 North 7th Avenue, Phoenix, AZ 85013
623-873-1410 http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com

[This message has been edited by gunplumber (edited February 05, 2001).]

[LTC B]

I pulled out my FAL this morning, and removed the extractor, and the bolt slides forward Ka-chunk! with no round (of course). I did it with a go-gauge, and it was fine. It would not close at all on a no-go gauge, and with a dummy round, it usually closed no problem, but once it did take a tap from my thumb to get it to close. Not on all the rounds.

So, do I put some lapping compound on the bolt or locking shoulder, and shoot a few rounds? I think it certainly wouldn't hurt, and could help my failure to extract. It seems that it MUST either be the extractor hanging up on the receiver, or the bolt hanging up on the locking shoulder.

[Rhineland1]

Major B hold off on the lapping compounds, what make and vintage ammo are you using? For a test on this ammo I suggest removing the firing pin loading your magazine with a couple of rounds and repeating the test you used this morning with everything together. This should show were the hang ups are.

The base problem to feed and lock a bolt up CAN give the problem of ejection. Well go over that later. What are you calling the ejector, just want to make sure we are using same terminoligy for everything.

GP were is your referrence to headspacing, looked for it couldnt find anywhere, would love to read it.

[Farmer from Hell]

Originally posted by Thomas:
Everyone here is trying to build these things to match grade specs+ and there shooting surplus ammo, something has to change and thats going to be at the locking shoulder, just about every instance.

Thomas I really dont know where you got this from. I dont think there is 5 people in this whole forum that tinker into sub MOA voodo. Everyone else expects and gets 2-4 MOA out of their guns. I am not a mechanical engineer but I have fixed enough stuff to know who things inherently operate and work together once I get my hands on them and take them apart. If the gun is head spaced to tight then that is the problem not the bolt carriers lock up angle or how polished it is. Sorry but my skull is kind of importent it hold my brain.........GP WJ?

FfH



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What part of Shall not be Infringed dont you understand pinhead?

[LTC B]

I didn't mention an ejector, but I am familiar with the difference. The extractor (on the bolt) removes the spent casing from the chamber. The ejector (on the receiver) redirects the casing out of the rifle.

Anyway, a colleague (and lurker) has been reading these posts, and has given me some awesome advice. I have THREE unbuilt FAL kits. I will try swapping bolts/carriers (after checking headspace), and will shoot these. If they don't hang up, it's almost certainly headspace interference. If they all hang up, it's a problem with a burr or something else. OR, they all are short headspace.

I will also try shooting it single-shot without the extractor. This shouldn't be a problem (it will only leave the casing in the chamber), but if it cycles, then I suspect the extractor is NOT hanging up on the receiver.

Any other suggestions?

[W.E.G.]

btt

[xcpd69]

Who me???

Don't ask me..."Uhhh...I am only an egg."

I haven't seen the rifle and there have been given at least half a dozen reasons for that type of malfunction, ALL of which are possible, so at this point I'm clueless.

But the more I read, the more I learn. Keep it up.

[Radio]

Wow! Forgot about this thread. I wonder if Thomas/Rhineland1 killed himself yet. New People: this entire thread should be a valuable lesson on how NOT to fix your FAL!! Failures to eject should begin examination at the g-a-s s-y-s-t-e-m, not h-e-a-d-s-p-a-c-e.

Whatcha wanna bet this nimrod is now Director Of Angry Beavers at CAI??

--Radio

(cpd69: I will share water with you. It will be a happy-making thing.)