barreling a Hesse receiver - crunch ... grind ... swear... ( WECSOG )

[W.E.G.]

OK. I think I just flunked my first pop-quiz at the Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithin'

The innocent have been named to inculpate the guilty:
Hesse $150 receiver
South African barrel from Wholesale G&A kit.
Dremel tool with grinder attachment
Big file
George Carlin's 7 Dirty Words (and some more I made up along the way)

Before attacking various pieces of metal with sharp objects, the barrel "clocked" to about 10 o'clock by hand-tightening.

Attempted sanding-disc method as described at http://www.stg-58.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000009.html
Conclude that this method could take eons.

Salivate while removing new file from packaging.

Filed-off a bunch of metal from the shoulder of the barrel where it would contact the face of the receiver.

Barrel still hand-clocked to the same point (10 o'clock).

Hmmmm....

Discovered that breech end of the barrel was abutting the "secondary" receiver face. This is the area to the rear of the receiver threads, and just forward of, and opposite, the receiver feed-ramp.

Whip out the Dremel tool.

Commence to attempt to "relieve the secondary receiver face" (i.e. grinding the s*** out of the inside of the receiver).

Screw barrel back on...a bunch of times. Big progress. Instead of clocking at 10 o'clock, it now clocks at about 10:03. WTF???

Observe some marks on PRIMARY receiver face where barrel appears to have made contact during screwing drills.

File the barrel some more.

No progress on the clock business.

File the barrel some more.

No progress.

Begin to worry when noticeable gap appears between primary receiver face and barrel shoulder.

Screw-on, screw-off a bunch more times.

Realize that my forearms are beginning to resemble Popeye.

Ready to open can of spinach with teeth.

Realize that barrel is still abutting "secondary" receiver face.

Set Dremel tool on higher speed setting...grind secondary receiver face some more.

http://users.erols.com/gary.jeter/Hesse1.jpg

Finally get barrel to clock to 11 o'clock position as shown in http://www.fnfal.com/forums/Forum10/HTML/000049.html

...or close enough

Sole point of impingement between barrel and receiver is now the secondary receiver face.

Measure gap between primary receiver face and barrel shoulder. With barrel in 11 o'clock position, feeler gauge reads .008 to .011...depending on where you insert the guage.

Admire forearms.

Consider butchering barrel from another kit. Decide to eat more spinach before attempting.

Waiting for Casey Elliot wrench.

OK. So when I crank that barrel to 12 o'clock, it is gonna take some serious torque. But, the gap between the primary receiver face and the barrel shoulder is still going to be there.

Not a pretty job. But, I don't care about pretty. I just want it to work.

I can't believe I'm the first person to run into this. I think the rest of you are just too embarrassed to admit it.

Can I just tighten-down the barrel, and fire it anyway?

Comments, condemnations, ridicule, suggestions and praise are welcome.

---The Butcher of FALhalla

[FALPhil]

I feel your pain, buddy. I want you to know that I have gobs of sympathy for you.

I think this has happened to a couple of folks before. IIRC, the solution was to insert an inch headspacing washer where the gap is. I would think that this would assume that the secondary contact area no longer contacts.

Since I am not an expert, I hope one of the board gunsmiths will answer.

Buena suerte!

------------------
..Phil
Download free targets at
http://harringt.home.mindspring.com/targets.htm

[W.E.G.]

Thanks Phil

I considered putting a washer on there. But, as far as I can tell, the only purpose it would serve is to make it look like I did it on purpose.

With the barrel impinging (with great force) against the secondary receiver face, I can't see any reason to put a washer on it. If the barrel is screwed on tight, it is screwed on tight. Right?

I dunno really.

If it shoots OK, I might screw the barrel back off and put on a washer (just for looks) and/or glue the threads with some Wile E. Coyote super-duper metal bond formula.

Whatcha think?

[thorlin]

Gary,

I was thinking about your problem... I've never done a Hesse receiver, but I have done 2 Imbels. Giving the Hesse receiver the benefit of the doubt (I know, I know...) I wouldn't expect the breech to impinge upon that secondary receiver surface. Here are some possibilities...

Has the barrel shoulder previously been relieved? Perhaps the barrel is OVERTIMED? I can see how you might be not 1 hour early, but 11 hours late...

Is it possible that you are using an inch pattern barrel? Those barrels match with respect to the threads, but require an indexing washer. Barreling a receiver with an inch pattern barrel without the appropriate washer would result in exactly what you've described....perhaps leading to the overtime described above.

I'd ask George Gouger. He seems to be very respected by all, and has much experience with the Hesse receivers.

Mike

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by thorlin:
Has the barrel shoulder previously been relieved?
It does not appear so. Several other barrels clocked-in to the same point (before I started cuttin').

Originally posted by thorlin:
Perhaps the barrel is OVERTIMED? I can see how you might be not 1 hour early, but 11 hours late...
No. If I screw it out one full revolution, it sticks out WAY far from the receiver face.


Originally posted by thorlin:
Is it possible that you are using an inch pattern barrel?
No...for the reasons stated above.

Originally posted by thorlin:
I'd ask George Gouger. He seems to be very respected by all, and has much experience with the Hesse receivers.

I hope George will comment.

[Enquiring Minds]

... Wile E. Coyote... Big file... this method could take eons... Salivate while removing new file... Whip out the Dremel...
Big progress...now clocks at about 10:03. WTF???... noticeable gap appears... Popeye.

Set Dremel tool on higher speed... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/eek.gif Admire forearms... more spinach...

Can I just tighten-down the barrel, and fire it anyway? http://www.fnfal.com/forums/eek.gif
---The Butcher of FALhalla

http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif: ROTF-LMAO... *with* you, not *at you! My friend you are at least maintaining your sense of humor!... and convincing me that ANY barreling I ever attempt will be NON-Hesse.

The year is brand new, but you are already in 1st Place for the Wile E. Coyote's Angry Beaver Creative Gunsmithing Award!

[shotgun]

I think you are trying to put an inch barrel
on and need to be using a breeching washer
one turn would be .0625 the washers come in
a number of thicknesses and are around that
.050 and up range. if the barrel stopped at 10 and you used a .052 washer that would put
you at 12 and the barrel would not hit the
secondary reciever face. i think your going
to find that with the barrel screwed in with
out a breeching washer you will not be able
to correctly headspace the gun. i am putting
an inch gun kit on an entreprise receiver and
when the barrel is screwed on without the breeching washer the same things you state show up. how that you have worked the barrel
over it might be harder to find the right washer. you will want the barrel to get snug
aginst the washer at 15 to 30 degrees before
12 so when tightend to 12 the barrel torque
will be about right. the torque spec is around 100 ft lbs. you might want to go back
to fn files home page and goto gunplumbling
workbook arizona response systems and get the share ware that tells about putting kits
together

(edited by moderator to delete quoted original post)

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: gary.jeter ]

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by shotgun:
I think you are trying to put an inch barrel on and need to be using a breeching washer

I think I'll have to s*** me a big 'ol brick if it turns out to be something that simple.

I got it from Wholesale Guns and Ammo at http://www.gunsnammo.com/

Anybody else have one of these kits who might know for sure whether the barrels are metric or inch???

(For what its worth, the <u>metric</u> DSA h/t/s set dropped into the kit's lower receiver slick as a whistle. You don't suppose the South Africans were mixing metric and inch parts on their guns? Out of three kits, every piece was there...unless they left the breeching washer out of each one.)

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: gary.jeter ]

[ce]

Congratulations! Despite the uncertainty of your travails, you have developed the Jeter method of barreling a receiver!
I had a Jeter type barrel from the same source, with a similar interruption to the timing. I also worried away at the secondary face with alarming speed, until the Dremel had reduced a good bit of Imbel to powder.
I then found that the mysterious impingement had disappeared, leaving a troubling gap between the barrel face and the secondary. More judicious filing alleviated the strain on the barrel shoulder, resulting in the eventual proper timing being achieved.
The only reason I thought I needed to relieve inside there was that it looked rough cut and irregular. The barrel face should never contact that area, because the shoulder is what should stop it.
Since it seems you have set your barrel in about .0010, it should snug up about half that at the shoulder, moving one degree, leaving a less obvious gap. Should be no problem, since the restraining tension is on the threads, more than on the face/shoulder, in your case, the face.
Most R1's I've seen had a lot of file marks on the barrel face from Afrikaaner armorers fitting up barrels. It was reassuring, to know that my ineptitude was neither solitary nor inordinate.
If it headspaces, shoots, and zeroes, you have built an issue R1, using the Jeter method.
Jeter barreling produces a superior fit of the barrel, in that the leade is "free floated" in a miniscule area ahead of the chamber by seating the barrel on the face instead of the shoulder.This relieves the stress on the leade, where the bullet first engages the rifling of the bore.
Mr. Jeter no doubt emulated the the innovative gunsmith, P.O. Ackley in the developement of this technique. Ackley also was controversial ofr his work on the "Ackley Improved" series of cartridges and barrels.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by ce:
Congratulations! Despite the uncertainty of your travails, you have developed the Jeter method of barreling a receiver!

Awwwww....gaaawrsh. It weren't nuthin'.

Mind you, I still haven't torqued this mutha down yet.

But, if it headspaces short I might just go ahead and ram the cartridge cases further into the sizing die so as to create a FAL wildcat cartridge. I'm open to suggestions for naming it. Maybe the "Jeter-WTF?" Kinda has a ring to it.

...Hey y'all...watch this!!!

[doubletap]

I bought exactly the same set up you have. I purchased the R1 kit from wholesale back in September. I first assembled it on an Imbel, 'cause that was what was laying around. No problems, shot well.
When the Hesse 150's came out, I purchased one and set the R1 up on it. I had no problems at all setting up the barrel. I did have a problem with the mag. catch/BHO screw, in that the recess for the screw head was mis-spotted, allowing about .040" of the screw head to impinge on the receiver. Fixed that with the appropriate size end mill.
I just stripped down the Hesse R1 to see the area you're talking about, and notice that my barrel is -just- making contact with the secondary face. I also ust stripped down two Imbel/STG58 rifles, one built by myself, one put together a couple of years ago by Entreprise. The both show a couple of thou gap from the secondary shoulder to the barrel face.

I am no FAL expert, but in working with bolt guns, I would have relieved the face of the barrel slightly instead of the receiver. Even without a lathe,a very light touch should take a couple of thou off fairly evenly. Does this work the same for FAL's as say Mausers or P-17's? I would be interested in knowing. Also, it seems it would be cheaper to bugger a barrel than a receiver.

HTH a little,

Doubletap

(edited by moderator to delete quoted previous text)

[ July 22, 2001: Message edited by: gary.jeter ]

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by doubletap:
...seems it would be cheaper to bugger a barrel than a receiver.
Doubletap

Yeah I thought about that. But, I figured that if I filed the barrel to account for the incorrect dimension of the receiver, I would be effectively creating a larger area of unsupported cartridge case in the area of the web of the case. This is a bad thing. When an usupported area of a cartridge case lets go during ignition, you definitely get a "liftoff."

I'm pretty sure the difference between the price of the barrel and the Hesse receiver is less than the deductible on my medical insurance (it is the first to the year...so I gotta go a ways before the insurance kicks in).

...Houston, I think we have a problem up here...

[thorlin]

Going back to the inch format issue, does the barrel have 4 opposing flats near the shoulder, or does it have 2? All metrics I've seen have 2, the only inch I've seen has four.

Just curious...

Mike

[ce]

Couple of things, Gary. First you wouldn't be in a cartridge support area out on the edge there by the extractor groove, so that would be where to relieve it. Did that to an inch barrel and had to scramble to find a locking shoulder to fit the set back barrel and face. It was tight, but the rifle really shoots good groups.Washer selection was dicey, too.
You will also have some difficulty with too tight headspace unless you find the right combination.
I always use the Izzraeli system, where you have a pile of bolts and carriers and you switch 'em all around until it shuts, chambers the go guage,won't chamber the no-go guage, chambers a live round, fires, extracts, repeats, etc...
Then you scrawl a third or fourth number on your new parts, match the upper, the lower, the barrel, your liscence plate, whatever, just to annoy the "collectors" more than anything. One thing though, once you fit them up like that they no longer interchange with ANYTHING, and your system must remain integral, or it won't work.I think that's why there are so many numbers on some bolts, after a Factory Thorough Repair, all invoved have a new identity.
What are we waiting for, for cryin' out loud, get a 1 1/16 wrench, file it down a little, squeeze that piece of Hesse in a vice and crank on that barrel!! Bang in your locking shoulder and slip in a bolt, if it will close at all you've got a chance.
If not start on kit #2.Remember that this rifle was adopted by many nations whose soldiers and armorers were most assuredly less prescient than we few befuddled brutes.
It'll work.

[TNT ARmoury]

I also have a Hesse $150 special R1 receiver. My gas tube hole in the receiver is off center. The threads are not to spec. I screwed the barrel in about 3 turns, which took more ass, than indexing the first receiver. I unscrewed the barrel, and the threads were about 0.002" smaller. So, I guess I have to spend $75 on a 1-16 tap to fix the receiver.

------------------
TNT ARmoury
http://tntarmoury.homestead.com/TNT1.html

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by thorlin:
...does the barrel have 4 opposing flats near the shoulder, or does it have 2?...



It only has two flats.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by ce:
What are we waiting for!!!...

Got all but two tools tonight. Gonna hit the hardware store for a couple rods for "precision" timing in the a.m., and commandeer the Cruffler's receiver wrench. Should be in Torquesville by Sunday.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by TNT ARmoury:
...I guess I have to spend $75 on a 1-16 tap to fix the receiver...

I should think that somebody around here would be willing to run their tap though your receiver for a lot less than $75.

A little rasp action ought to enlarge that gas piston hole to get things working. Not pretty, but...

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by shotgun:
I think you are trying to put an inch barrel on...

Looks like I'm in the clear on this possible brain-f***.

In the interest of following every lead, I screwed the "modified" barrel down to hand-tight, stripped the bolt, and ran it all the way forward. A .262" pin gage (the largest I have) still allowed the bolt to move fully into battery, with room to spare. If I had in fact cut so much off the barrel shoulder so as to permit the barrel to index nearly a full revolution beyond the proper point, then the bolt definitely should not have closed on the .262" gage.

Whew!


[This message has been edited by gary.jeter (edited January 05, 2001).]

[Bubba]

I like cartoons too!

Bubba.

[GregoryJ15]

Gary
Put a couple just like that together from the same source on Hesse's. Had one that clocked at about 9:30 That's when I asked about the shoulder grinding and you responded with the STG58 cite you've used here again. I used the 2 x 4 drilled with steel dowel and two flat file method of grinding, home made vertical lathe. In none of these did I ever have a problem with the secondary face. They all closed properly during the crushing phase of the clocking. I did have a problem with the secondary face on a C1A1 barrel mating to a Hesse. Had to remove about .002" from the lower breach lip on the barrel to get it to clock. Since a C1 is an inch barrel I had to use a breaching washer to close out the barrel shoulder gap. Having all these problems on one reciever seams to point to the reciever being out spec some where.

[This message has been edited by GregoryJ15 (edited January 07, 2001).]

[panchop]

for what it's worth i bought 4 R1 kits. 1 from wholsale 3 from FA. the one from wholsale deffinatly has some Very slight differences. i noticed that the diameter appears to be slightly larger near the shoulder. i say this cause when i was cherry picking parts to put together the FA HG retaining rings WILL NOT fit on the barrel from wholesale. what that means to your situation. i have no idea.

[GregoryJ15]

Panchop
I've seen the same thing, must be a difference between austrian and belgique spec

[W.E.G.]

I think this Hesse receiver is the most out-of-spec thing I ever encountered. Granted, I've had my way with it with the Dremel tool. But, not without good reason. This long story just gets longer.

I finally got the rifle completely assembled. The headspace seemed correct. 1.632" by my measurement. (stripped bolt and Brownells match headspace gauges)

But, when I tried to cycle some dummy rounds, it wouldn't go into battery. Now, the bolt is hanging up on a lip of the receiver at 12 o'clock above the chamber. The lip protrudes substantially more than the functioning Entreprise gun I used for comparison. On the Jeter FAL-WTF, the stripped bolt and carrier moved into battery fine on the headspace gauge. But with dummy rounds, and the extractor in place, it alters the angle or orientation of the bolt as it moves to battery. This forces the bolt to rise just enough as it tries to go into battery that it wedges against the lip, arresting further movement. I'm going to have to pull the friggin barrel to get at the lip with the Dremel tool. That is, unless I'm willing to go nuts and let the Dremel bit chew up the barrel at 12 o'clock while I'm "relieving" the receiver (again).

What a pain in the ass.

I'm about to relegate the Hesse receiver to bed-liner...river bed that is.

Maybe a few good night's sleep will give me a better perspective. I need some words of encouragement here guys.

[Manamongmen]

Gary,
Been following the saga of the gjwtf. Sure sounds frustrating. My condolences and one small offering of help: if you must dremmelate again in there, the little sanding drums made of rubber are pretty safe on the end; there's just the little screw head to worry about, but they take metal off well w/ the 80 grit bands. You might be using them already but if you hadn't they might kepp you from the rigors of un-&re-barrelling. Hope you get some relief on this PITA soon.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Manamongmen:
...the little sanding drums made of rubber are pretty safe...Hope you get some relief on this PITA soon.

I have some of those. I've been using a pointed abrasive wheel. It is about worn to a nub. I couldn't get a straight-on attack on that confounded receiver lip with the Dremel. The drum would present the same problem. I'm going to hit the lip with a file...if I can get the barrel off.

Thanks for the support.

[W.E.G.]

OK.

The Jeter FAL-WTF exists.
http://users.erols.com/gary.jeter/Hesse2.jpg

U.S. parts:
DSA h/t/s
DSA Browning-style fake-brake
DSA grip
Peguin humpback stock
Hesse (or is that Hexxe) WTF receiver

The question remains, "Does it LIVE?"

I'll walk it up to Hell House sometime this week. There is supposed to be a big lightning storm. With the right strike, it may come alive.

After much swearing and ranting and incantations, I discovered yet another place where the receiver was out-of-spec. This time it was the left inner face of the receiver, alongside the area where the bolt carrier moves. This was causing the carrier to bind badly as it moved into battery. So badly in fact that the rifle would not go into battery. That, notwithstanding the fact that I must have checked and rechecked the headspace two dozen times. So, I "relieved" more metal.

http://users.erols.com/gary.jeter/Hesse3.jpg

This left-side area was obviously mis-cast. The surface protruded in an odd way into the interior of the receiver. If I had spent more time studying it in comparison to a known good subject, I probably would have spotted this sooner. After much filing and sanding, the bugger finally agreed to cycle dummy rounds from the magazine...well in a fashion I suppose.

Mags fit really loose. Much, much looser than the Entreprise comparison subject. I wonder whether there is any way to tighten this up? Duct tape around the mag? Maybe wedge a matchbook between the mag and the mag well? Anybody got any matches from that club...what was the name??? I think it was some acronym. Oh yeah, the WTF club...that's it.

Friends don't let friends buy Hesse.

[Enquiring Minds]

Friends don't let friends buy Hesse. http://www.fnfal.com/forums/biggrin.gif

Well sounds like all the dremelatin' n' chanting has finally paid off... with enough sandbags to hold 'er down, a long string 'round the US trigger, a flak vest, and ANSI-spec eye protection, you sound ready... anybody got a camcorder? http://www.fnfal.com/forums/eek.gif

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Enquiring Minds:
Well sounds like all the dremelatin' n' chanting has finally paid off... http://www.fnfal.com/forums/eek.gif

I AM FAL MAN!

HAS HE LOST THE PIN
BUILDING FALS HE SHALL BEGIN

WILL IT CYLCLE AT ALL
HESSE RECEIVERS THEY WON'T RECALL


WTF IS ALIVE OR DEAD
WILL IT EVER SLING SOME LEAD?
WHEN THE BOLT SLAMS SHUT
A PRODUCT OF THE FAL-KIT GLUT


HESSE RECEIVER MADE OF STEEL
MAGNAFLUXED WITH A MAGNETIC FIELD

A PROJECT TO "UNWIND"
FOR THE FUTURE OF MANKIND


MIGHT NEVER FUNCTION
HE JUST STARES AT THE WORLD
PLANNING HIS RANGE TRIP
THAT HE WILL SOON UNFURL

NOW THE TIME IS HERE
FOR FAL MAN TO SPREAD FEAR
WTF GUN AT THE RANGE
THAT P.O.S. SURE LOOKS STRANGE

NOBODY WANTS IT
THEY JUST TURN THEIR HEADS
MIGHT BE A JUNKER
NOW HE HAS TO CONTEND

HEAVY BOOTS OF LEAD
POUNDS ON LOCKING SHOULDERS TIL HE SEES RED
GRINDING AS AS FAST AS HE CAN
FAL MAN LIVES AGAIN

[ce]

Way to go, Ozzie, nothing shakes up the colloquials like a Fal man waving a rifle while biting the head off a bat.
Once it runs on race day, you can be the new smith for all the nancy boys that are afraid of a little squealing metal and ozone fumes.
Wasn't it a tinker who traveled town to town clanging on a barrel, alerting the people to bring out all the stuff that needs fixing?
Fal man's comin' to town!

Have gun, will travel.
Wire Jeter,the Virginian

[W.E.G.]

The aluminum mags from FWRA fit the Hexxe-WTF receiver much better than anything else. Very snug lockup.

The DSA five-buck Austrian mags are as loose as the Cornfield Queen in the Hexxe-WTF. The ones with the witness holes are the worst. Sometimes the witness-hole mags just fall out of the receiver when I slam the bolt on an empty mag.... a real treat when standing on a concrete floor. Add one Austrian floorplate to the cost of the $150 Hexxe-WTF.

The DSA/Austrian mags fit fine in an in-spec receiver.

[Wadman]

How do the aluminum mags fit in an in-spec receiver?

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Wadman:
How do the aluminum mags fit in an in-spec receiver?

Very snug...which is a good thing, as the aluminum would not benefit from excessive jostling/battering.

[W.E.G.]

I will add that the Penguin stock withstands the torture test too.

Since I started wrasslin' with this project, I've had at least 50 incidents with dummy-rounds stuck about halfway into battery. Even my burgeoning Popeye forearms were not enough to retract the bolt once it froze in the halfway position. The only way to clear it was to hold the rifle in a vertical position about a foot above the concrete floor with the left hand on the forend, and the right hand on the cocking handle. From this position, the rifle is SLAMMED (only way to describe it), butt-first against the floor.

This usually dislodges the frozen dummy-round with alacrity. Great for giving the cat something to be afraid of as the dummy-round clears the receiver in Claymore style. I may destroy the Penguin stock yet with this behavior. But, so far, it appears none the worse for wear.

[W.E.G.]

RANGE TRIP REPORT

At least it didn’t explode.

Hang target.

Load one round of Radway Green in aluminum magazine.

Insert magazine.

Rack bolt.

Hot weapon.

OK. Here goes the first round for this rifle, and maybe the last round I’ll ever fire.

Wonder what the hell I’m doing with this piece of $hit. I can afford new guns. Why am I risking my personal safety with this thing? Oh well, we all gotta go somehow. Please God, let me survive this.

Pow.

http://users.erols.com/gary.jeter/Hesse4.jpg

Hmmm….that wasn’t so bad. Hole in center of target.

Observe bolt. Halfway in battery. WTF!

Spent case still halfway in chamber.

Close gas port completely.

Load another round from the magazine

Pow.

Ejection. Cool!

Load two rounds in mag

Pow…brisk ejection.

Pow…spent case hangs up in ejection port. Magazine follower overrides bolt stop pin. Magazine jammed in mag well. Curse. Rip magazine from mag well.

Hmmm…

Load 10 rounds in magazine and insert in mag well.

Rack a round into chamber.

Pow…brisk ejection.

Pow. Spent case hangs up in ejection port as bolt tries to force next round into chamber. Not good.

Next round resists going into battery during feed cycle. Seems to need more metal off the left inside of the receiver.

A bunch more jams and failures to go into battery.

Wrestle with this nonsense for a bunch more rounds. Plenty of episodes of the mag follower overriding the bolt stop pin. Learn neat technique for holding bolt back with one hand while depressing mag follower with other hand and operate mag catch with (other?) hand.

Receive lots of good advice from others at the range: “You need to open gas knob some more;” “Its probably worn out;” “It sure is old.” Well, that sure solves a lot.

Primary observation: Rounds that came from the right side of the mag don’t eject. Rounds that came from the left side eject like crazy.

Go home with tail between legs.

At home, remove dust cover. Load mag with a bunch of dummy rounds. Work bolt. Notice that Rounds that came from the right side of the mag don’t eject. Rounds that came from the left side eject like crazy.

Remove a bunch more metal from the left inside "rail" on the receiver. Seems to help feed-phase of cycling (using dummy-rounds) a lot. But, every other round won't eject. Every other round just stays attached to the bolt via the extractor.

HERE IS THE PROBLEM
Realize that ejector is not making contact with rounds that came from right side of mag. Observe that top round on mag causes bolt to shift to one side or the other as bolt moves back during cycling. When top round is on the left, the bolt is forced to the right, causing the rear of the spent case from the preceding round to miss the ejector completely.

OK. So how do I make the ejector contact the rounds from the right side of the mag? Tried bending it buy grabbing it with needle-nose vise-grip pliers. Darn thing is tough. Won’t bend. Decide I need to pull the ejector block to get the necessary leverage. Try to bang out the pin for the ejector block. Won’t budge.

Settle for “fixing” the bolt-stop pin on the mag hold-open. Whip out the Dremel. Been looking forward to trying the cutoff wheel attachment. Dremel works good. Bolt won’t hold open on the last round. But, who cares. I can count on a spent shell casing to ensure that the bolt won’t close anyhow.

I think the time has arrived in this project to give up or seek professional help.

[Rich@CGW]

LOL ! now that was down right enjoyable to read.. Those horrible memories have resurfaced AGAIN.. it took me several trips to my theropist ( OLD GUNSMITH ) to finaly beable to say, Don`t build HESSE receivers..
And here jeter already figured it out in less than a month...LOL! Keep up the good fight.. Don`t give up !! You wont learn anything if you quit now..In fact, I`ll bet you don`t have a hair on your A** if you can`t get that pile to work.. That was ment as a challenge and not flame.. Rich http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif

[stimpsonjcat]

Nooooooooooooooooo...don't grind off the BHO pin!!!
Too late eh?
Well, for future reference you could have simply hammered the pin out an 1/8" or so and it would have solved the BHO pin binding next to the mag catch problem. I fully documented this on a seperate post here.

The fact that you had that problem leads me to believe you probably also have a problem with magazines fitting loosely in your magwell...yes? If so, this may be adding to your other problems. Try racking rounds (and they really should be dummy rounds...or just temporarily remove the firing pin) with the rifle resting on the magazine so that it is forced to be up into the magwell as far as possible. Do they feed better that way?

You may also want to check to see whether your gas piston extends past the face of the receiver. If it does (mine did) you may need to remove a small amount (NO DREMELS!) in order to allow the bolt carrier to lock fully forward. Another reason to check this is if it does prevent full forward motion it is also, obviously, wacking hell out of your gas piston and plug every cycle. I had ejection problems prior to this minor operation, and have none now. It may have been that the extractor wasn't fully engaging rounds due to the carrier not going fully forward.

It's easy to check for this, take dust cover off and leave carrier/bolt installed. remove gas plug and piston. remove spring from piston. put piston back in and push gas plug in. watch carrier as you do this...if it moves you have this problem.

Here's a link (so as not to 'waste' more bandwidth) to a photo of my R1/Hesse carbine...now functioning flawlesly: http://www.alltel.net/~jbperry/falcarbine.jpg

Peace!

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
...you could have simply hammered the pin out...I fully documented this on a seperate post here.

I read your post with great interest when it first appeared. I wanted to use your method with my BHO assembly. But, the magazine catch pin is in a blind hole. I grabbed it with vise-grips and tried pulling. Then I tried twisting. Then I tried to wiggle it up, down and sideways. Eventually, it developed a little play. But, it was not coming out.

Here's what I think is going on with <u>my</u> BHO: The lever that you grasp to operate the BHO is pinned to the tube with a transverse retention pin. If you remove the retention pin and the lever, you can remove the BHO spring and the BHO buffer from the BHO assembly. If you look into the now-vacant area of the BHO shaft, there is a smaller hole that travels beyond the area where the spring and buffer operate. I don't think the factory drilled this hole for kicks. I beleive (although I am unable to see) that there is yet another retention pin up inside the hole. This retention pin secures the magazine catch pin that I cut off. My magazine catch pin appears to be a part which was not intended to be replaced as a separate part. Probably, the builders figured that if an armorer ever had to pull the BHO assembly, he would just replace the whole assembly. Which makes sense, otherwise armorers would have to keep up with a lever, a retention pin, a spring, a buffer, another retention pin, and a magazine catch pin.

You can take a gas plug apart too. But, I doubt many armorers bothered. Bad gas plug spring? Replace whole gas plug.

All this is not to say that other factories didn't build these BHO assemblies differently. Obviously, yours was built so as to permit you to adjust the extension of the magazine catch pin. Is there any feature which allows you to secure your pin solidly at a particular setting? Or can an errant whack drive your pin back into the BHO assembly?


Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
...probably also have a problem with magazines fitting loosely in your magwell...yes?

Some mags yes, some no. (See my comments regarding fit of various mags above.) I used the tight-fitting mags for my range test. The bolt picks up the rounds fine. The problem is that only rounds (spent cases that is) originating from the left side of the mag will eject. Rounds orginating from the right side of the mag just whiz right by the ejector, while still in the grasp of the extractor.

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
...Try racking rounds (and they really should be dummy rounds...

I have a .22 hole in my basement wall to attest to this wisdom. BTW, don't buy any used Jennings pistols at gun shows. (Unless you want to sell them to the DC Police for a 300% profit. But, that's a whole 'nother story.)

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
You may also want to check to see whether your gas piston extends past the face of the receiver. If it does...

It does. Just like yours did. I saw your pix. But, remember, I'm not having a problem with my <u>EXTRACTOR</u> engaging the case rim. The problem comes when the rear of the spent case outright misses the <u>EJECTOR</u> at the bolt's rearward zone of travel. I agree with your observation about gas plug battering. A small adjustment on the gas rod will be in order when/if the ejection problem is remedied.

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
Here's a link (so as not to 'waste' more bandwidth) to a photo of my R1/Hesse carbine...

Fine lookin' hunka iron. Is that a DSA mount? What kind of groups you get with that?

[ce]

Gary, how 'bout widening the ejector with a little dribble of weld on it, and file it down to fit the cut in the underside of the bolt ?
And fuggetabout a buncha bolt hold open. The Brits found a lot of cracked receivers around the ejector block and attributed it to the bolt slamming to a halt repeatedly, so they removed the stops with dremels at dawn. Must have been a big pile of chips at Enfield Lock that morning.
Stiff upper lip, old boy, carry on, cheerio, pip pip, and all that sort of rot.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by ce:
Gary, how 'bout widening the ejector with a little dribble of weld...

A swell idea!

Problem is, I'm not equipped for that sorta work (much more adept at REMOVING metal than adding it). I don't know much about the longevity of welded areas under this sort of service either. I'd be disappointed if the welded area disintegrated after a couple hundred rounds. If I can find the right spark-man, this may indeed be the most expedient remedy.

Thanks!

[bagger42]

Hey, I am (was) toying with the idea of building one of these "things" and have certainly enjoyed this post. I'm 64 years old and I think I need to just buy one put together. I may not have time to finish one if I had these kind of problems. (and I probably would. I have problems with those "30 minute" repair jobs that turn into 3 hours with 6 trips to the hardware store. GOOD LUCK. I'm waiting for more of you saga.

[stimpsonjcat]

Gary,

I dunno about the existence of any other pin in the BHO assembly...I kinda doubt it. The horizontal pin can be hard to get to drift out. Mine appeared to have been driven in from the back side and was either larger on that side or had been soldered in place there as it 'folded' in on the back side as I drifted it out. I view this as a good thing as it assures a nice tight fit even partially drifted out.

As to the piston issue I will say this. I was HORRIFIED to find out I had been firing a weapon which would not allow the carrier to travel fully forward. The possibility that I had been firing a weapon which may not have been allowing the bolt to completely seat against the locking shoulder makes me cross myself. I wouldn't harp on this as much if I had not experienced exactly the ejection problem you list, though not all the time, and I never checked to see if it was from a particular side or not, before shortening the piston. I really do not recommend firing the weapon with the piston remaing too long as this is definately causing undue stress on several parts. I too wondered why I would get failed ejections when it looked like the extractor was properly engaging...all I can tell you is that problem evaporated completely after shortening the rod.

Theories are fun...but empirical data is rarely wrong.

I have a shortened CAI reject gas piston, should you wish to try this without molesting yours. Be glad to send it to you...seems the last I can do to help you avoid having your rifle disintegrate on you.

peace!

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by bagger42:
...6 trips to the hardware store

Hah!

I think I have the price of a good Imbel just in postage and gas to and from the hardware store on this project!

(And worth every penny of it, for all the "joy" it has given us.)

[ce]

Yeah, dude, I'm thinking more of a mag problem, like maybe the loose fitting ones may sag as the bolt goes by, allowing the the case to remain centered?
Try another bolt, in fact, buy 'em from Century, L1A1, #PAFAL194, $14.87, I think.$50 minimum, so buy four.Free shipping.
Bottom line, strip the Hesse, send it back to Robert, ask for a second chance.
You have proven yourself exceedingly polite, patient, and gracious, especially when addressing a dufus, (doufus), (dewfus),(doofous),so let the test resume

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
The horizontal pin ...appeared to have been driven in from the back side.

I may be going blind (what with these big forearms and all) but the magazine catch pin on <u>my</u> BHO assembly is definitely in a blind (pardon the pun) hole. In fact, as I mentioned above, I wrenched and twisted it until it became loose in the hole. But, it still wouldn't come out. Something inside there is holding it in. I suppose it could be a blob of solder instead of a retention pin. But, if it is solder, why would the factory have machined a smaller cylinder beyond the cylinder in which the BHO spring and buffer operate? In the end, by the time I had wrenched and twisted the pin, had I gotten it out of the hole, it never would have gone back in that hole with any security. Thus, whip out the Dremel.

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
I was HORRIFIED...that I had been firing a weapon which may not have been allowing the bolt to completely seat against the locking shoulder...

Now this is an interesting point. If you will, allow me to be devil's advocate for a moment. Isn't it true that once the bolt "drops" onto the locking shoulder, it is as locked as it is going to be? And isn't it true that the bolt drops onto the locking shoulder considerably sooner in the cycling phase than the point where the carrier reaches its most forward position?

Take a look at the bolt/carrier relationship. Doesn't the carrier just park it's big, fat, receiver-rail-retained self on top of the bolt to keep the bolt from popping out of battery. So, if the carrier is not quite as far forward as it could be isn't it still in position to hold the bolt in a locked-down position? Also remember, we are talking about an out-of-spec receiver. Isn't it just as likely that the carrier is as far forward as it <u>should</u> be in relation to other parts of the rifle, but is not as far forward as it <u>could</u> be on this out-of-spec part?

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
Theories are fun...but empirical data is rarely wrong.

True.

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
CAI reject gas piston...Be glad to send it to you

Uhhh....no thanks.

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
seems the least I can do to help you avoid having your rifle disintegrate on you.

Might impose on you to buy me a beer or a Band-Aid depending on whether this thing develops into a celebration or a catastrophe.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by ce:
...Try another bolt...

That's a possibility. But, a different bolt might change the headspace. The headspace is the ONE dimension I think I got right on this thing. I have a few spare bolts already. If I can't fix the ejection problem by adjusting the ejector, I'll be looking for everything from a new bolt to an aboriginal witch doctor.[/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by ce:
...send it back to Robert

Nahhh... I couldn't do that to him. He may be hapless for exposing a product like this to this market. But, I don't think he deserves to have some angry beaver chew on his product, then send it back for recompense. If nothing else comes of this, maybe he will improve his quality control.

[ce]

Dude, we would be better as a nation if more men were as principled as you. To be sure, you should never send anything back,if you get burned, take the hit , try again. I've opened many a box to find- WTF...? Those lyin' weasels, cheatin'bastards, stupidf...
But, they bought and paid for the same lot, and maybe I only see a small sample of the entire tragedy. You shouldda seen the STG that was on the bottom of the pallet, I guess, with a visibly bent barrel and a buttstock squashed and bent like a banana.
Chucked the barrel in the lathe and Big Jim spun it and bent it with his bare hands like the man of steel until it looked pretty straight. I'm still convinced the trajectory out of it will look like a corkscrew. I'll check it with some tracers when it gets mounted. Sadly, the butt remains unsalvageable, unless you wanted a Salvador Dali lookin' piece, all weird...
Somehow I just know that I'm not the first foob they sent it to, and they got at least a 15 per cent restocking fee each time it goes out, because it sure ain't going into their rubbish heap.
So, you're right, ethically speaking, Mr. Hesse doesn't need any returns, but neither should Harlan get stuck with so many $150 fishing lures because everyone reads your journal. I would think that you would deserve another receiver, perhaps you got a bad specimen, now we got it fixed, this time you'll do fine, please go away and be quiet...
Imbel uber alles

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by ce:
...unless you wanted a Salvador Dali lookin' piece, all weird...

Man! Dali was a FALholic??? You got his rifle? You are set! Let me know if you need an agent-broker for dealing that thing at Southeby's. Post pix!!!

Originally posted by ce:
I would think that you would deserve another receiver...please go away and be quiet (emphasis added)...

Alas, a principle I have yet to develop. But there may be hope.

Eventually, I'm gonna have to get somebody with experience to look at the beast. Maybe, for no other reason than to sign the coroner's certificate.

On the subject of tortious interference with business relations, let me make it clear here. I'm working from a sample of ONE. The rest of Mr. Hesse's receivers may be swell. For the sake of those who have (and will) purchase them, I hope so. I'm merely one loudmouthed, disappointed customer. I make no representations about the quality of any other product of which I have no direct knowledge.

I'd be surprised that any distributor might be "stuck" with Hesse-receiver inventory. Especially, a savvy distributor who is probably much more familiar than I with the limitations of the product. Seems to me, if a distributor has anybody with a lick of sense writing his business contracts, the verbiage goes something like this: "You make 'em, I'll sell 'em. You get paid when I get paid." Indeed, that is an oversimplification. But, if that isn't the heart of the deal, then you pays your money and you takes your chances.

Lastly, what do I know anyhow? According to some sources, I'm just some airhead with a power tool. I sure hope nobody looks at my imprecise methods, my lack of experience and my penchant for learning all methods via trial and error as the last word on choosing how to spend their own money.

[stimpsonjcat]

Gary,

When I rotated the BHO horizontal pin on mine a circular crack appeared on the other side clearly showing the outline of the pin. Anyway this conversation is moot since you've whacked it with the dremel. Should you ever want it back, let me know and I'll outline the procedure I used to fix the one Century had ground off in my STG.

Regarding the positioning of the bolt/carrier...my only response will be this. If there is room inside the carrier allowing it to move more forward than your receiver/barrell/piston arrangement is letting it before seating against the bolt...then you need to alleviate that error so that it moves as far forward as it is supposed to.

But whatever, just because this mod eliminated my similar ejection problem and it is an obvious innaccuracy in the fit of the parts and bad for several of them and easy to fix is no reason to try it...hell you've modified everything else...I'd have thought you'd have jumped at an excuse to dremel something else.

This isn't a debate...and I'm not going to argue about it...I'm just letting you know what fixed my similar problems.

As Toaster might say "Intelligent thought now saves hating your dremel tool later"

peace!

"look an argument is more than saying 'No it isn't'"
"No it isn't."

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
...the BHO...Should you ever want it back, let me know

I have "one or two" still to work on. Rest assured, I'll send you one to inspect before I Dremel it. In fact, I think I have one from the same lot that is otherwise damaged. My low-res camera won't produce a decent pic of the part. So, send me your mailing address, and its comin' atcha.

Originally posted by stimpsonjcat:
Regarding the positioning of the bolt/carrier...If there is room inside the carrier allowing it to move more forward...then you need to alleviate that error...hell you've modified everything else...I'd have thought you'd have jumped at an excuse to dremel something else.

Ka-tching!!! Smile when you say that!

Seriously, I didn't mean to sound dismissive of your suggestion. I will try it.

[bagger42]

I signed up for all the kit buys. Today I bought another kit, Dremel hee,hee. No fool like an old fool. Hey, I am hard headed, they don't call me three fingers for nothing. Nay, not quite that bad, YET.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by bagger42:
Today I bought...Dremel.

Stock up on good supply of grinder tips in every shape, so as to not be caught short-handed during a full-moon 1:30 a.m. receiver-to-dust session. It's kinda scary the big supply of cutoff discs that came with my tool. Like what am I supposed to do with all those? I need more grinder bits!

"Eye of newt, dust of Hesse
All FAL-butchers come forward and your sins confess!!!"

[HB GUNS]

We got one of those $150.00 Hesse receivers in at the shop to day,was thinking of building one with STG58 parts.After reading from this posting
im not sure if I want to follow thru.


------------------

Thanks Sonny.

[EMDII]

ROTFLMAO!
http://www.fnfal.com/forums/wink.gif

Gary, you gotta love him. Sorry for your troubles. My Hesse-built FALO-C works fine, but no telling what it took to get it that way. Still, your 'journey' has entertained and informed.

Best wishes w/ your 'crackhoe' FAL!



------------------
1*.....Train Like You Fight: Second Place is NOT an Option.

E.M. (Ted) Dannemiller II

[W.E.G.]

Ol' WTF is deep in the throes of surgery. Hope to hear from the doctor soon.

[HB GUNS]

Guess I might be having a little luck,
Pre-assembled everything bolt&carrier
slides ok mag catch&bolt stop hole lines
up ok gastube fastening nut threads in perfect.Barrel times up the way they should.Refinish the barrel and go from their.Sure is not a Imbel guess buyer beware.

------------------

Thanks Sonny.

[This message has been edited by HB GUNS (edited January 28, 2001).]

[Paul]

You go Gary! I'm looking at buying my first FAL and receiver/kit to build next month. I too have a Dremel - the greatest gift to mankind and gunsmiths everywhere. I think gunsmiths (real ones) get more business fixing Dremel jobs than anything else!

[Trebor]

So, how did this saga eventually end?

Btw, you owe me a new keyboard Gary! I think the spewed Pepsi is gonna kill this one.

Trebor

[Double G Gunsmithing]

Hey...

There seems to be some of my postings "missing" from here concerning this WECSOG ?

Whats up with that :-) Who did the removing?

I guess I can always repost them ;-)

Sincerely,

George L. Gouger
Life Member NRA Since 1969 www.doubleggunsmithing.com (http://www.doubleggunsmithing.com)

[EMDII]

Not I, oh esteemed and venerable warrior/philosopher/weapons' master!

Seriously, you missing some?

[W.E.G.]

Just pruning to maintain the suspense.

Looking forward to giving this a happy ending without giving away the ending.

[Double G Gunsmithing]

Sorry,

I thought his was the FAL board,

Not just the WECSOG forum.

To go "pruning" because of what you might not like seeing is B.S.

Maybe some one else should moderate here.

Ego issue ?

Sincerely, George L. Gouger
Life Member NRA Since 1969 www.doubleggunsmithing.com (http://www.doubleggunsmithing.com)

[W.E.G.]

Hey George...you've got mail.

[gunnut1]

"Great for giving the cat something to be afraid of as the dummy-round clears the receiver in Claymore style."

ROTLMAO

That is one hell of a cat toy ya got the Gray!

[cllary]

OK Gary. It's been a day now. Enough suspense already......................

[Blag]

Originally posted by gary.jeter:
<STRONG>Just pruning to maintain the suspense.

Looking forward to giving this a happy ending without giving away the ending.</STRONG>

You ARE a rascal! :rolleyes:

[Blag]

Originally posted by Double G Gunsmithing:
<STRONG>... To go "pruning" because of what you might not like seeing is B.S.
</STRONG>

It's Gary's saga, paid for with his money, time and tears. He's got a right to present the story the way he wants, annoying as that may be for the moment. I don't know what he has in mind for an ending, but I suspect you will not be displeased with how it turns out.

[Double G Gunsmithing]

Dear Blag,

Since you don't know the whole story, here goes:

The rifle was sent here to be "fixed" after being WESOG'ed, O.K. ? If not with you, thats O.K. too, I fixed it, not you.

I have also seen over 30yrs of firearms being butcherd up by bad advice. Yeah, I get paid to fix'em, but at a customer's loss of time and $$.

Gary did send me an apology about "pruning" my postings.

Most of the time, people come here looking for good sound advice, and expect it. Most of the time, a file ( smooth cut #2 ) is needed or a stone, not a Dremel tool.

If you watched your neighbor paint a car with runs, drips, mist inside the interior,
would you accept his advice on car painting?

I would have let this die, after some light hearted kidding, but the "pruning" was not right,period.

I could see it if there were abusive language, flaming, and / or racist remarks.

This Board is supposed to be a "open" forum for all. Moderator's should not be "pruning"
threads just because it may involve them,
and have the right to "abuse" there authority because they din't like what they see.

I have spent a lot of time giving sound, good advice here to the board, at the cost of shop time. Why ? To help other firearms
brothers / sisters. I'm not here to "troll for business". See me on the Vendor's Page?

Gary must have thought I had it together pretty well to send his rifle here.

Some have viewed these WECSOG things as funny. I answer alot of e-mail privately
"after the fact" from some of these "tecniques" were applied with bad results.

No one "owns" a thread or forum here, except Mz. Jen. So... if I start a thread and don't like what else is posted there, I should be able to "moderate" them off ? That would makes thing flurish here.

Not on a rant, just giving fact.

Sincerely, George L. Gouger
Life Member NRA Since 1969 www.doubleggunsmithing.com (http://www.doubleggunsmithing.com)

[Blag]

Originally posted by Double G Gunsmithing:
<STRONG>Dear Blag,

Since you don't know the whole story, here goes:

The rifle was sent here to be "fixed" after being WESOG'ed, ...
</STRONG>

Actually, George, I did know that. I read all of the thread earlier, including the later messages (and I posted there as well, which you may not have noticed.)

I don't think you need to be concerned about the whole story being told, including your prominent part in it.

In other words, I trust Gary. I'm looking forward to how he presents the wrap-up. (But it better be good!)

[W.E.G.]

I had hoped this would settle down. So much for wishes and good intentions.

Yes George, I did prune the post. Sheesh, I'd hoped to keep it a surprise. Ego? Hell yes. I was telling a story. Some were even entertained by it. You took offense.

Again (and publicly, since it appears that is what you want, and since you won't reply to my emails) I APOLOGIZE FOR PRUNING THE POSTS REGARDING THE CURRENT WHEREABOUTS OF THE FIRST FAL I TRIED TO ASSEMBLE.

George, I'm sure you will do a better job than just about anybody when it comes to assembling/rebuilding/fixing/gunsmithing. I look forward to receiving the product of your work.

There. The cat's out of the bag for sure now.

[Double G Gunsmithing]

Dear Blag,

Better be good ?

My work or Gary's reveiw ?

What are the implications here ?

Sincerely, George L. Gouger
Life Member NRA Since 1969 www.doubleggunsmithing.com (http://www.doubleggunsmithing.com)

[Trebor]

Originally posted by Double G Gunsmithing:
<STRONG>Dear Blag,

Better be good ?

My work or Gary's reveiw ?

What are the implications here ?

Sincerely, George L. Gouger
Life Member NRA Since 1969 www.doubleggunsmithing.com (http://www.doubleggunsmithing.com)</STRONG>

Granted, I'm not Blag...

But, I'm sure he means the STORY better be good. The thread so far was entertaining, and we're all hoping the wrap up will continue to be fun.

BTW, I've heard nothing but good things about your work, and I think your one of my the more respected smiths on the board, so I'm sure that can't be what Blag meant. (correct me if I'm wrong Blag, but I'm 99% sure I'm not)

Take care

Trebor

[law4fun]

Boys,
Everyone settle down and take a deep breath.
GG, your work is beyond reproach and I am certain that there was nothing negative intended, actual or implied, about your work. You are a GIANT among giants in the g'smith business.
Gary has had us enthralled with his escapades since the New Year.... Looking forward to the next installment.
Jim

[W.E.G.]

Everything is OK now. Everybody's Dremel is back in the holster.

[Ricketts]

"Can't we all just get along?"

[Blag]

Originally posted by Double G Gunsmithing:
<STRONG>.... Better be good ?

My work or Gary's reveiw ? ...
</STRONG>

Oh dear, you're pretty seriously annoyed, aren't you? I meant that whatever Gary plans for the climax of the story, if you will, that it had better be good, to make up for the annoyance factor of the chopped thread.

But I have to add that, considering the subject, this mangled thread seems sort of appropriate. Maybe I have a strange sense of humor.

My guess - and I don't know - but my guess is that what Gary was aiming toward, was that when he got the rifle back from you, he was going to write about how he had gotten it fixed, and how happy he was with your work (which I'm sure he will be,) and etc. Maybe post a pic or two, range report, and so on. And apparently he wanted that to be a surprise ending.

But if that was the idea, I think you just tromped all over the surprise part. ;) LOL! I shouldn't laugh, I beg your pardon. But I can't help it.

[zoom]

But I have to add that, considering the subject, this mangled thread seems sort of appropriate. Maybe I have a strange sense of humor.
You mean someone took-out a Dremel tool to the thread? Sorry, I couldn't resist...

[FALshot]

One of the reasons I love going to George's shop and bothering him with admittedly stupid questions, is that he's shown me the results of some of Mr. Coyote's handy work.

I think George got sent some hard to find wooden handguards that one of the "Professors" at The Wiley E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing told this poor sap to put in the frigging DISHWASHER!! :eek:

Needless to say the results were just about like one of the Roadrunner episodes where "Wiley" got his butt drilled into the side of slate wall!

No doubt in my mind, if Roadrunner was still in production, one day ol' Wiley would open up a box marked "Acme" and pull out a DREMEL tool to help him fabricate a hi power rifle to get that damm bird! True to form "Wiley" would get jacked up, ......again.

Here's to hoping one of our "Wileys" doesn't metaforically live up to their heritage.

Bill Woodward
FALshot
Portland, OR.

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: FALshot ]

[Blag]

About the dishwasher, there's more to consider than how well, or poorly, it might clean guns or parts. Any gun part could have a little lead residue on it. Conceivably, some lead could get transferred to dishes and eating utensils. Lead is not a good thing to have in your diet.

Don't use the dishwasher for guns or parts.

[Double G Gunsmithing]

Well, this had made three pages now :-)

This has all been a little T in C, with out the bennefit of chuckles & voices.

The "pruning" bugged me. I said, Gary and I exchaned e-mails over it, all polite.

Do I take my work serious ? You bet your life, and many have and do ! My dad did work for a lot of L.E. / Military / Carry firearms/weapons, so I have always taken my work & reputation very serious, starting with my family's name, and our shops work.
FalShot got the chance to see some on the "gov'ment" M1A/M14's we did. People from a number of diff agencies depend their lives to our work. So, that is why there is no "helpers/lackys/assistants" here.

There are a few folks here that have seen some real butchered up stuff here. Not just FAL's. Handguns / rifles / shotguns. Casey Elliott was here for a weekend and was amazed at some of the damage people do to their own firearms.

Do I kid, and have a warped sense of humor?
Duh?! Do a search of some of my postings:-)

I have wrote all these with a little T in C.

We have had a number of e-mails about "how to fix because I grinded it". It cost those folks $$$. Did the "advice'ee's" reimburse them ?

There is the old saying about knowing when to say "Hell, I don't know" :-)

I grew up when there was a lot of blue coller professional metal tradesman around.
Especially in the Detroit,MI area. Even when it come to gunsmithing, they knew what to try, and what not to. It is better to ask some one who might know, rather than procede further and really f*%k it up.

As long as their WECSOG'em, we're fix'em :-)

Like the ol sign stated "Fixed guns repaired"

LOL !!

Sincerely, George L. Gouger
Life Member NRA Since 1969 www.doubleggunsmithing.com (http://www.doubleggunsmithing.com)

[WhoMe?]

Mr. Jeter,
What was the final outcome of the "GJ-WTF" project?
:confused:

[W.E.G.]

I got cold-feet on the notion of trying to salvage the Hesse receiver. Ended up having it built it on an IMBEL. The IMBEL build turned out real nice.

I sold the WTF-Hesse receiver to a fella on the board. He said he "fixed" the ejector by whacking it with a hammer and punch (a man of my own heart). I haven't heard anything more from him.

[W.E.G.]

Here is the former WTF rifle as refinished and assembled by George Gouger
on an IMBEL receiver.

http://users.erols.com/gary.jeter/Hesse5.jpg


I traded this rifle to my buddy panchop, who then worked a trade with
another person out-of-state.


The rifle was STOLEN while in custody of a UPS shipping agent in 2002.

Serial number 130501.

The lower receiver has a serial number too. Different from the
upper. I neglected to record it. But, I think it has the
South African "ZA" prefix.
At the time of the trade it was wearing unpainted DSA bipod-cut
handguards and an unpainted Penguin humback stock.
The finish on the metal surfaces is BLUE (not park or paint).
Remember, this rifle is now on an IMBEL receiver. Can't remember
whether it was a gear logo.
DSA fake long muzzle thingy


see
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61575
and
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47682
and
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47293
and
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44484


Serial number 130501.

Please look for it.

[ce]

This fellow Gouger is quite the dick, eh, wot?
I had read accounts of his fall from grace, and was willing to accept his faut pas with a genteel tolerance, but his tirade here has irked me, and now I recognize him as an odious lout, a seamy, unctuous man with greasy hair, and dirty fingernails, sweating and staining his ill fitting clothes.

I'm sure I'm not the first to suggest that he be fixed, with a hammer and punch, so that we never again be subjected to his callous verbal stinkeye.