Tactical Training

[Bruce Allen]

at LV Hospice RN's request:

LV Hospice RN
The Grim Reaper Lurks
Bronze Contributor

quote:
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Originally posted by Bruce Allen

.....................

IMHO - it is near impossible to put two good shots into a head of a person, as the first will put them down.

I have a number of issues, though, with that training and the philosophy behind it, but will not start a debate on this thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So start a different thread..would love to hear your issues...

I havent ever had to fire my CCW gun at another human being...i truly hope i never do...but i think the philosophy of 2 to the chest, 1 to the head is valid...afterall the goal of shooting someone is to stop the threat....what better way to stop the threat....than...2 to the chest...1 to the head?
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What issues do I have with "two to the chest and one to the head"??

Lets start with the philosophy:
Why do people generally shoot other people:
To make them stop what they are doing, in general.
The more system disruption done the quicker the effect of being shot.

For years virtually all firearms training was focused on "center of mass" shooting.

Police training even had special targets developed for this, and the B-27 Silhouette is still used to this day in many, many places, and the IDPA and IPSC targets are formatted to this center of mass training.

BTW - all "action" or "combat" shooting is training in essence.
The scoring "competition" simply makes it more fun.

Along came soft body armor, as nothing is bullet proof. They are now made out of Kevlar, and other newer aramid fiber materials.

This actually first became an issue in the 1930's when military produces vests began showing up on bad guys, and nothing the police had in hand guns would penetrate them, so the 38 super was made at LEO request just to punch holes in the vests.
Later the .357 magnum and later the .44 mag came into being and no frag vest would stop them.

Fast forward 30 years.
A bright guy started making soft body out of a material developed for the military to strengthen aircraft fuselages during WWII, and was starting to be used in automobile tires, known and advertised as aramid fibers to this day.

We know it as Kevlar.

Well, it would stop all standard handgun bullets, up to and including .44 mag, and of course it came to pass the bad guys started using them.
Training finally caught up to this problem and it was determined if a double tap (two to the chest) to the center of mass was not effective, then you needed to shoot the badguy somewhere else - like in the head.
Neat training and great for static situations - like shooting at nonmoving targets.

Not particularly effective for dynamic situations like moving targets, or moving people.
In fact you could almost say some of these encounters could be described as fluid, as they are moving so much.

My point?
Hitting a moving person 2 times in the chest would actually be quite an accomplishment in a real event like a gun fight, but certainly do-able.
Hitting a much smaller target like a head - moving - low light (??) would be much, much harder.
Remember what the goal is here?
Stop the badguy (not just kill him, but if he dies, he dies).

Wouldn't a larger target be more reasonable in a stressful situation??

What else is available that is not covered by a vest?
If not above, then below the vest:
Hips and lower abdomen/groin area.

I guarantee you a 38 spec or 9mm (40 cal or 45 even better) to the hips or lower stomach or groin area would definitely take the fight out of a bad buy and might not kill him outright, where a head shot is almost guaranteed to.

Are there times when a head shot might be necessary?
Yes.
It is virtually guaranteed to stop someone instantly, especially if a brain stem hit is accomplished.

IMHO - much more effective training would incorporate 2 to the chest, and one to the lower abdomen.


BTW - even with dealing with a drugged or deranged subject, broken skeleton areas - like joints - are effective in stopping their movement, so a shot to the hip that broke it would certainly slow him/her down a whole bunch, and not kill them outright.

Remember the guy shot by the police just last month?
There was a lot of discussion about it.
Many said it was not justifiable, but it was my position that under the known circumstances it certainly was.
I do not think it necessarily should have been lethal, but that is for another discussion.


How's that LV?

[Rawles]

My philosphy on shot placement is: Take the best aim that you can under the circumstances, and keep keep shooting until the bad guy is absolutely no longer a threat. (You can worry later about how to phrase your explanation in the courtroom of why you took coup de grace shots.)

If you have time for a deliberate ("dry gulch") shot, then aim for the head or neck. If you are firing under stress (i.e. both you and the bad guy are blazing away), then alternate between torso and occular window shots. My aiming mantra when I'm shooting at paper targets is: "Heart, right eye, heart, right eye..."

Take any shot you can if the bad guy is using cover. (For example, if he is behind a car, then shoot him in the foot. ) Bullet trauma and blood loss are both cumulative, so take any shot you can get , as often as you have the opportunity. All hits hurt. And don't forget that all hits are at least distracting, making your opponent less likely to hit you.

Carry a LOT of extra ammo in loaded magazines. The old tried-and-true Milt Sparks "Six pack" pouch (which holds six M1911 or SIG P220 single column magazines) makes a lot of sense. And for you double column magazine Wonder- Nine guys, I recommend that you carry at least three or preferably four loaded spares.

Lastly, get the best training that your time and budget will allow. Taking two of the four day courses at Front Sight will teach more than you've learned in your entire lifetime! Don't scrimp. Consider it life insurance!

[bykerhd]

This would play well in Hollyweird I'm sure. A whole new generation of cop movies based on the "two to the nuts and one to the head" (choice of little or big head) mantra. Might give a whole new meaning and tone to some shootouts, both real & cinematic.

[GOVT1911]

Ya'll can relate what I'm saying however you want to this post.
I'm a FIRM beleiver that you WILL fight how you train. That is, if you train REPEATEDLY the same way. My example of this is that I've been training and shooting for several years to fire 2 shots at a target, weather it's pistol or rifle. I'm not going to get into why, just that's what I was taught at one shooting school I've attended. (been to several) I've even been chewed out for it at several schools, as it wasn't "their" way. Cool. At each school, I TRY to do everything "their" way while there, then integrate what works for me into how I shoot. Anyway........ While in Baghdad, EVERY TIME I fired my M4, I fired shots in groups of 2. EVERY TIME. Wheather it was firing "warning shots" into the ground or hood of a car or doing everything I could to perforate someone before I was perforated. ALWAYS groups of 2. Sometimes it was only 2 shots, sometimes it was many more, but it always sounded kinda like this "BANGBANG..........BANGBANG.............BANGBANG" until I felt that the threat was neutralized or was no longer visible. Is it the best way????? Dunno, but it seemed to work for me and having done so allows me to be here typing this.

Yeah, I'll keep doing it that way until I find something that works better for me.


Anyway, just my $.02

[Dation]

Originally posted by GOVT1911
Ya'll can relate what I'm saying however you want to this post.
I'm a FIRM beleiver that you WILL fight how you train. That is, if you train REPEATEDLY the same way. My example of this is that I've been training and shooting for several years to fire 2 shots at a target, weather it's pistol or rifle. I'm not going to get into why, just that's what I was taught at one shooting school I've attended. (been to several) I've even been chewed out for it at several schools, as it wasn't "their" way. Cool. At each school, I TRY to do everything "their" way while there, then integrate what works for me into how I shoot. Anyway........ While in Baghdad, EVERY TIME I fired my M4, I fired shots in groups of 2. EVERY TIME. Wheather it was firing "warning shots" into the ground or hood of a car or doing everything I could to perforate someone before I was perforated. ALWAYS groups of 2. Sometimes it was only 2 shots, sometimes it was many more, but it always sounded kinda like this "BANGBANG..........BANGBANG.............BANGBANG" until I felt that the threat was neutralized or was no longer visible. Is it the best way????? Dunno, but it seemed to work for me and having done so allows me to be here typing this.

Yeah, I'll keep doing it that way until I find something that works better for me.


Anyway, just my $.02

Are you double-tapping or is it more of 2 fast aimed shots? That is good advice because the ~20 cents extra you spent on another shot is worth your life. It's always good to have the extra insurance especially when in danger like you were. Stay safe guys.

[mosbysmen]

move, move ,move.. stand in one place and shoot and your going to die...
dont move in a straight line , move diagonally ..
practice shooting and moving

[Deltaten]

As a youngster, just learning the ropes, my son would often ask: "Why three shots?"

I taught him two-to-the-chest, one to the head from the jump.

"Easy, son. When the DA or the prosecutor ask why ya shot him thrice, just say 'I was trained that way'". IIRC, he sez that Marine CQB school still teaches it, too. (mebbe it's just doubles, tho?)

"It's a lot easier to convince a Coroner's Jury that ya didn't shoot him too much, rather than that you didn't beat him (the Perp) too much (sic)"
Bill Jordan

Better to end the fight RFN, than have to wait around for the BG to exsanguinate. A shot or two "extra" are cheap insurance. If a perp need dieing, best to do the job right, 'cause we all know that any job worth doing is worth doing right!

Best,
Paul

[LV Hospice RN]

Originally posted by Bruce Allen
at LV Hospice RN's request:

LV Hospice RN
The Grim Reaper Lurks
Bronze Contributor

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bruce Allen

.....................

IMHO - it is near impossible to put two good shots into a head of a person, as the first will put them down.

I have a number of issues, though, with that training and the philosophy behind it, but will not start a debate on this thread.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

So start a different thread..would love to hear your issues...

I havent ever had to fire my CCW gun at another human being...i truly hope i never do...but i think the philosophy of 2 to the chest, 1 to the head is valid...afterall the goal of shooting someone is to stop the threat....what better way to stop the threat....than...2 to the chest...1 to the head?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

What issues do I have with "two to the chest and one to the head"??

(shorted to save space-see above post)

How's that LV?

Excellent Mr. Allen. I think most people see a gun fight like it is seen on TV...either hiding behind cars and shooting at someone else hid behind a car at 25+ yards or something right out of "Gun smoke"...."K...go for yore gun Pardner". From what I have read, its true as I stated above I aint never been in a CCW inspired shooting, the BG is up and moving, you are up and moving, both taking shots that are, to varying degrees, aimed.

To digress a moment to GOVT1911's post, I too picked up the fire two rounds, assess, fire two more rounds if threat isn’t stopped...repeat till threat is stopped.... mentality thru the military training I got back in the 70's. At that time we were armed with an S & W Model 15 .38 Special with six rounds in the cylinder, twelve more rounds total is two strippers clips. That was government issue and i had no real choice in the matter.

Now i can chose, within my limits, what i carry as my day-to-day ccw gun. I chose a 1911 FS loaded with full power hollow points. Normally I carry no back up ammo...therefore the comment, "if eight rounds of .45 doesn’t solve the "issue", a box wont save me". Yes, this is in fact fewer rounds than the military saw fit to send me to work with. But I am not out to protect property of the U.S. Government nor am I expected to confront BG's now...I feel comfortable with eight total rounds for my purposes. I don’t frequent high crime areas; generally don’t rub elbows with criminals and, all in all, lead an old man's life. Yes...crime occurs everywhere, but I feel comfortable with this level of protection.

GOVT1911 states he learned the two shot/assess method and is comfortable with it. Same here...I been to several schools and tried it "their way" but when I practice, I practice the THREE shot (two to the chest, one to the head)/assess drill.... I have "two" tries, six rounds to solve the problem, and two rounds left in reserve. Don’t think that is enough leeway/safety margin? That’s your opinion, its great.... but keep in mind, MOST LEO's who's job it is go into high crime areas, seek out criminals, and confront armed bad guys NEVER fire their weapon! My risk level is much lower than that...so in my pea brained sized mind, I am comfortable with where I am.

That doesn’t mean that as I type this, a concession hand grenade cant come sailing thru my window and my home attacked from both front and back simultaneously by two squads of Islamic terrorists intent on stealing my Air Supply CD's...it COULD happen...and if it does...I am woefully inadequately prepared for it.

In summary, yes there is a point somewhere; I enjoy hearing Mr. Allen's opinions/comments. Being a nurse, I know someone with a hip injury/fractured hip isn’t going to be a moving target...the only concern I can see is they will go down if hit in the hip. But their brain function/ability to shoot back MAY not be compromised.... factors like shock/adrenaline cant be figured into the equation...shock/adrenaline isn’t a factor with the two chest/one head philosophy.

Basically its what you are comfortable with. Someone that carries large amounts of property (jewelry/cash/bonds/etc), is a LEO, Security Officer, etc has a different risk than a Joe Citizen type like me.

Whatever you decide to carry...carry it always.... Murphy’s law. The one time you really NEED your gun...if you don’t carry it all the time.... will be the time its on the kitchen dresser....

just imho, ymmv
darrell
sin city

[jerrymrc]

Posted by; LV Hospice RN.
To digress a moment to GOVT1911's post, I too picked up the fire two rounds, assess, fire two more rounds if threat isn’t stopped...repeat till threat is stopped.... mentality thru the military training I got back in the 70's

Me too. I do like and understand the talk about hitting them anywhere will case them to pause. I am a firm believer in that. but I was also trained to move.

Two rounds move, assess, two rounds, move. this was more in line (at the time)
with night ops. JMTC.

[Bruce Allen]

LV Hospice RN:
Please do not get me wrong.

I am not advocating abandoning the "two the chest and one to the head", but suggesting to expand your repertoire to include "one to the abdomen/hip area".

Not all situations demand the same response.
Time, distance, and conditions will dictate how you can respond, as well as your own skill level.

Granted I no longer go out and face bad guys daily either, and don't miss it, but the possibility exists one might come to me for whatever reason.

The whole concept of "Tactical Training" is exactly that:
Training with firearms (usually handguns) to develop skills with some kind of tactics that increase your chances of survivability in a gunfight.

I have seen the actual results of gunfights, both citizen to citizen and police involved, and even conducted a lengthy study and submitted it to the Chief of the Greenville Police Department back in the late 1970's to try to get them to go to more realistic firearms training and they/he was polite and thanked me for my effort and then "File 13'd" it.
Until the mid 1980's any form of realistic firearms training was non existent at the Greenville County Sheriffs Department and the Police Department, much to my utter dismay.

You said it precisely: From what I have read ....... the BG is up and moving, you are up and moving, both taking shots that are, to varying degrees, aimed.

I have found in my own personal studies of police involved studies when a gunfight jumps off your first reaction is to do exactly as you have trained - good or bad - and if you survive the first several seconds and shots, then you usually begin think a little.
Your training will still be influencing you heavily.

In consideration of the first part of a gunfight, habitualizing good simple tactics when confrontations begin will give you a chance to survive, especially for police.

BTW - The part of the encounter leading up to the shooting will almost always determine who survives, it establishes who is in the best position tactically and mentally/emotionally win (read here live/survive).

One of the best and easiest tactics we all can do is simply start paying more attention to what is going on around us and this includes people.

It is called raising your awareness level.
Don't ride around jamming with your radio full blast.
Don't have that cell phone stuck to your head all the time.
Learn to walk erect and make eye contact with other men around you.
When speaking to strangers be firm and positive.

Oh yeah, never, ever, ever violate the first rule of gunfights:
Always bring a gun. :wink:

[GOVT1911]

Originally posted by Dation


Are you double-tapping or is it more of 2 fast aimed shots? That is good advice because the ~20 cents extra you spent on another shot is worth your life. It's always good to have the extra insurance especially when in danger like you were. Stay safe guys.

I fire two shots in rapid succession, using one sight picture. It's been called many things by many different people I've shot with, "doubletap, hammer drills, failure drills" etc. Depending on amount of time available and distance is what I use to get a sight picture. i.e. long distance shots get a more refined sight pic, close in get either a "flash" sight pic or VERY close get the muzzle indexed and trigger pulled twice. Pretty much ANY target past 200 meters gets 2 shots, unless I'm on the qualification range where you don't have the ammo to spare.
I'm not trying to argue that this is the best way, just what I use. It works for me, so it was added to my "toolbox".

[owlcreekok]

It is called raising your awareness level.

Thanks. I have been preaching this over and over to my family. I was going to quote the lines that followed, but the first line says it all.

A confident, firm countenance that shows a visage of one that is WATCHING makes all the difference in the world. No, I'v not been in an urban gunfight. I occasionally walk thru crowded public places with or wothout my family. Usually malls. I can see the different body language and expressions and "way" given to me while alone or beside family members. Especially from the 16 - 21 yr old "punk" acting mall tuffs. Some of the more brash ones will hold their path to make me move as I walk an otherwise clear path. When Wife or kid is along, I move. BARELY. BUT I make full eye contact with a pleasant but unafraid expression. Last Christmas season I was alone for an afternoon picking up wife's presents. A small band of jeweled and gaudily garbed individuals were blocking everyone as they met them oncoming. I was in a route step trying to cover ground to get the hell out of there with my goods. As I approached, the prominent member of the group looked at me approach, turned 1/4 away with a seemingly smiked face. Two strides away he glanced to see that I had moved to the wall. I hadn't. His expression THEN was priceless as HE moved. Later, on the return trip, he and I made eye contact again. This time from 25 yards out. When I got to his last position in the mall-way, his group had moved into a store foyer. He and I almost never broke eye contact. Albiet peripheral at times, he KNEW I was watching.

Am I tough ? Nope. DO I look threatening ? I don't think so, I have been told that I do because I am 6'-1", fairly lean and almost always have a very "grim" facial expression. (I don't think it is "grim", just hard to look at so many FUGLY people and smile, lolol)

I said it in another thread on another subject. "If you blindly amble about as if you had no clue that you are not alone in the world, sooner or later someone will notice this fact that you would rather they had not."

[Bruce Allen]

Originally posted by owlcreekok


Thanks. I have been preaching this over and over to my family. I was going to quote the lines that followed, but the first line says it all.

A confident, firm countenance that shows a visage of one that is WATCHING makes all the difference in the world. No, I'v not been in an urban gunfight. I occasionally walk thru crowded public places with or wothout my family. Usually malls. I can see the different body language and expressions and "way" given to me while alone or beside family members...........
Precisely.
is all about "body language".

I was not going to state it outright just to see what kind of reply I received.

I could quote you studies that verify that fact over and over.
There is a very interesting psychology between predators and victims or non-victims and why and how victims or potential victims are chosen and it bottom lines to simple body language.
This even applies to small framed men and women.


Thanks Owl..

[ggiilliiee]

its nothing to do with tactics...i think 90% of the tactical folkes are gonna go brain fade at that moment ....and real life i think SPEED is the key ....being able to get the gun out of its hiding place and on target quicker wins ... my draw from the back pocket .380 to one round in your(and i always double tap ) face at 7 yds is a little under 4 hundreths of a second on the pac timer ...any one slower than that wont survive regardless of tactics IMO....owlcreek is rite on ...the best tactics you can have is being fully aware of what is going on around ya ...and dont let the little shoulder popper punks bother ya ...just do what i do walk rite into them ....if their daddy isnt going to teach them respect .....i will ...remember it takes a village to get rid of an idiot ....or something like that ....he he

[Bruce Allen]

.04 seconds from start to shoot?

I would like to see that in person.

Are you sure you don't mean .4 seconds?

[LV Hospice RN]

Originally posted by ggiilliiee
its nothing to do with tactics...i think 90% of the tactical folkes are gonna go brain fade at that moment ....and real life i think SPEED is the key ....being able to get the gun out of its hiding place and on target quicker wins ... my draw from the back pocket .380 to one round in your(and i always double tap ) face at 7 yds is a little under 4 hundreths of a second on the pac timer ...any one slower than that wont survive regardless of tactics IMO....owlcreek is rite on ...the best tactics you can have is being fully aware of what is going on around ya ...and dont let the little shoulder popper punks bother ya ...just do what i do walk rite into them ....if their daddy isnt going to teach them respect .....i will ...remember it takes a village to get rid of an idiot ....or something like that ....he he

While i am NOT saying i dont believe you, i find it very unlikely you are going from a standing pose and in 0.04 second have fired a aimed round at a target to your immediate front.

Body language, situational awareness, or just NOT walking along either on the street, in the parking lot, or in the mall, "fat, dumb, and happy"...whatever you want to label it, "PAY ATTENTION". Even if someone CAN get a aimed shot off from a holster weapon in 0.04 seconds, if they arent aware enough to preceive the threat....you arent going to get a chance to do. I file being aware of what is going on under tactics....

just imho, ymmv
darrell
sin city

[shogan]

DeltaTen: You have described the Mosambique! I believe Col. Cooper coined the phrase. More and more badguys are wearing protective vests these days.

check six

shannon

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Bruce Allen
...My point?
Hitting a moving person...accomplishment...much, much harder.
Remember what the goal is here?
Stop the badge (not just kill him, but if he dies, he dies).



Its a good thing I don't need no steenkin' badges!

[Bruce Allen]

Oops!!

I meant "badguy", not badge..

Is my Freudian slip showing?

[StrongMedicine]

Good Thread,

Which brings around the question of actual firearm (Pistol) training .

Can anyone advise of actual training for civilians, in CO, KS, OK or N.TX (Dallas Area). I've started some dialog with TDSA of Dallas. (I'm not affiliated with them in any way) Haven't made any commitments yet. I'm looking at their Pistol courses to start.

Seems like most are IDPA oriented (not saying thats good or bad just stating what I see). Does this matter?

Regardless of experience with training location in CO, KS, OK or TX....
Your suggestions and experiences (pros/cons) are appreciated and will help determine my choices.

SM

[LV Hospice RN]

Originally posted by StrongMedicine
Regardless of experience with training location in CO, KS, OK or TX....
Your suggestions and experiences (pros/cons) are appreciated and will help determine my choices.

SM

Contemplate Front site in Nevada. Its a bit over a hour away from Las Vegas but plane fare/hotel room packages are relatively inexpensive...if you bring a S.O. she (or he...not being judgmental here :uhoh: ) can shop/lay by the pool/gamble your money away while you shoot 'em up....

Although i feel at times the founder of Front Site is a "bit out there", i dont consider that a bad thing as i am too!! Not sure if its changed or not, but they used to use "innovative" tactics to get their instructors....from initial recruitment to retention...keeps a national name instructor or two on staff to brag about.

That being said, they offered, IMHO, excellent training for the money, good, "Bang for the Buck" so to speak.

darrell
sin city

[gearlogo]

I went to an indoor range yesterday to fire some of my handguns. Some non shooters from work asked me to take them. I figure anyone I can get out shooting is worth the ammo and wear and tear. The replaces all the ammo even though I said it was on me

Anyway I got to see the average joe shooting and frankly I was scared of being shot there by accident. The folks next to us were all over the place on a Q target. Mostly into the ceiling and lights.

I told the people I was with to get some training before the bought a gun that way they would be able to actualy hit something. Incidently, these new shooter shot better that some of the "folks" shooting gangster style next to us.

[Ship Ahoy]

I train for different scenarios and one I call is Sh*!!ing-my-pants drill. I've never had to even draw on anyone and hope I never do. But what if the time comes when I am required to defend myself. Will I draw, aim, and squeeze the trigger with 2 to the body and 1 to the head? Answer is I don't know how I'll actually respond. So every so often I'll practice emptying a whole magazine as fast as I can with control. This is what I call panic shooting or the Sh*!!ing-my-pants drill. This is NOT a spray and pray drill. I've been able to score all hits though not all COM on my target at 20 feet. I usually paractice this with multiple targets. It uses up a lot of ammo and people look at me funny until they look at my targets. Add some movement into the drill and now you've really got a challenge. I rarely just stand in one spot and fire at one target.
:fal:

[Bruce Allen]

May I suggest a shooting drill that is really interesting.

It is called the "Speed Rock".

The scenario is you are being attacked and the attacker is upon you.

Your weapon is still holstered.

You are still standing and have to react with lethal force to survive.


The Speed Rock trains to simultaneously draw the weapon and thrust out your non shooting arm to hold off or push off the attacker at shoulder level, and since the attacker is at arms length you cannot thrust the pistol where it can be grabbed, so you hold the weapon so it is right along your side, virtually touching your side so the muzzle does not extend much past your body.
You also lean back at the same time, or rock back, on your strong side foot, to try to gain a little distance between you two, maintaining your balance of course.

Done correctly you will get powder burns on your clothing.

It is down and dirty and is a last ditch survival move as you may have already received some injury from the attacker who may possess some impact instrument or edged weapon.
You are gonna take a cut or hit, but if you get several rounds into the bad guy are going to go home later, and he will go to the morgue.

In first training the non shooting arm should be held up at shoulder level with the elbow out and the hand back in nearly touching your chest - parallel with your elbow.
We don't want to embarrass ourselves by shooting our own hand.. :rolleyes:

This can be practiced a lot in front of a mirror to develop the skill before actually firing a live round.

Now, once in live fire practice you might find you need to adjust the impact point of the rounds.
To adjust for "windage" you would simply rotate your whole body left or right to move the impact.
For elevation you would move your entire forearm up or down at the elbow, and not at the wrist.
After just a little practice you will be amazed at how well you can center several good shots very quickly.

I really like this drill.

[jacketch]

A bright guy started making soft body out of a material developed for the military to strengthen aircraft fuselages during WWII, and was starting to be used in automobile tires, known and advertised as aramid fibers to this day.

We know it as Kevlar.
Kevlar was first synthesized in 1964, an invention of a female DuPont scientist.

Along came soft body armor, as nothing is bullet proof. They are now made out of Kevlar, and other newer aramid fiber materials. Not all soft armor is made from aramid. Spectra is not in the aramid family.

BTW - The part of the encounter leading up to the shooting will almost always determine who survives, it establishes who is in the best position tactically and mentally/emotionally win (read here live/survive). Well said and great thread.

[ReconSniper173]

If you're really interested in combat type training, check out Midwest Training Group. They're located a few miles west of Bloomington, Illinois. I took a class there last fall with Jim Cirillo as the instructor. It was a good class that emphasized survival shooting. The course was based off of using a handgun at pretty close distances. And, no, I don't work for MTG nor do I have stock in them or anything. I just went there once for training.:rofl:

[farranger]

Rawles is right, get trained. You have no idea how little you know if you haven't been trained by a pro. I thought I was a good shot, ha. Went to a training class, Tactical Response with James Yeager and Co, and also Andy Stanford. The first time couldn't hit crap. Second time much better. With Andy Stanford, I was dramatically better.

[GOVT1911]

How was Andy Stanford? I have one of his videos and he seems like a clown. I had heard good things about him so I bought a video to see if I wanted to attend one of his classes. After watching the vid, well, like I said earlier, seems like a clown. Is he or is that just the way he came across on the video?

[ONG]

Originally posted by StrongMedicine
Good Thread,

Which brings around the question of actual firearm (Pistol) training .

Can anyone advise of actual training for civilians, in CO, KS, OK or N.TX (Dallas Area). I've started some dialog with TDSA of Dallas. (I'm not affiliated with them in any way) Haven't made any commitments yet. I'm looking at their Pistol courses to start.

Seems like most are IDPA oriented (not saying thats good or bad just stating what I see). Does this matter?

Regardless of experience with training location in CO, KS, OK or TX....
Your suggestions and experiences (pros/cons) are appreciated and will help determine my choices.

SM

Have not studied under him myself but have heard good things. brianhoffner@hoffners.com I believe he's from Texas.

[farranger]

ONG, Tactical Response comes to Pueblo, Colorado about twice a year. Gabe Suarez comes to Colorado Springs once or twice a year. A bunch of korean karate people host some shooting classes outside of Denver a few times a year. email me and I'll hook you up to addresses

Andy Stanford is funny, but he is serious about training. You won't go wrong with him. I can't remember, but I think he offers a money back guarantee, but maybe that's only James yeager.

Stanford tells good stories and is knowledgable. He is very willing to sit at lunch with you and answer hundreds of questions while he eats. good source of knowledge.

[ONG]

Thanks for the offer farranger but I am from Ohio. I posted that other link for the one that was looking for a class in Texas. The Tweeter and I are taking 2 classes form John Farnam (http://www.defense-training.com/) this year. Advanced pistol & carbine/shotgun. Between that, some 3 gun and some IDPA style shoots we will keep the smoke in our face this summer.

[photomike]

StrongMedicine,

What's TDSA? "EDIT I found their site online....."

I'm local and dont know of it. I have tried to attend as many of the matches at Texas Tactical down near Austin.

http://www.texastactical.net/

I havent done any classes, just some of the shoots, but I've learned alot about myself and how to shoot and move the way that works best for me.

HTH,
Mike

[Fallschirmjager]

Many, many...er...many moons ago we learned a drill in rookie school that is quite practical. This was back in the day of revolvers as a service weapon. Our training officer modified the qualification test for our department after an incident an officer had. He entered a convenience store at about 2am and was attacked by a guy with an ax. They guy came around a product shelf weilding an ax. The officer fell backward dodging the ax and barely got his weapon clear of his holster when he fired. Fortunately he hit the guy twice COM and the perp died.

We had been trained in the classic Weaver stance and shooting method of fully extending your arms, elbows locked and a two handed grip on the weapon. Well, that changed to a more practical approch. And it really makes sense.

Statistically most confrontations happen within about 7 feet or so. So we had to drill by standing in front of a FBI target at about 7 feet away, draw our weapon just from the holster, holding the weapon parallel to the ground with your forearm resting on your hip bone or utility belt and emptying the revolver at the target's COM. After awhile you would be amazed how accurate you can get with that type of instinct shooting at close range.

Maybe it is worthwhile to try that in addition to other drills. Most bad guys aren't going to necessarily be 25 yards away, they want to mug you up close and personal. Hence the 7 foot range.

I haven't thought of that in years. I'm going to have to try that next range session.

[dadman]

One of the more well known instructors has a saying of "everyone gets firsts before they get seconds" concerning multiple boogie men. Fergets who said it.

A school in southern Ohio, Adams county. Guys at range I belong to have nothing but good to say about it.
http://www.tdiohio.com/

[farranger]

It seems to me that while you're on target it's faster and easier to put two bullets into someone then move to the next. With trigger re-set, I can put two into a target quickly enough, but switching to the next target takes time for acquisition, determination of target status and then firing. Just my non-expert two cents worth.

[Bruce Allen]

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
Many, many...er...many moons ago we learned a drill in rookie school that is quite practical. This was back in the day of revolvers as a service weapon. Our training officer modified the qualification test for our department after an incident an officer had. He entered a convenience store at about 2am and was attacked by a guy with an ax. They guy came around a product shelf weilding an ax. The officer fell backward dodging the ax and barely got his weapon clear of his holster when he fired. Fortunately he hit the guy twice COM and the perp died.

We had been trained in the classic Weaver stance and shooting method of fully extending your arms, elbows locked and a two handed grip on the weapon. Well, that changed to a more practical approch. And it really makes sense.

Statistically most confrontations happen within about 7 feet or so. So we had to drill by standing in front of a FBI target at about 7 feet away, draw our weapon just from the holster, holding the weapon parallel to the ground with your forearm resting on your hip bone or utility belt and emptying the revolver at the target's COM. After awhile you would be amazed how accurate you can get with that type of instinct shooting at close range.

Maybe it is worthwhile to try that in addition to other drills. Most bad guys aren't going to necessarily be 25 yards away, they want to mug you up close and personal. Hence the 7 foot range.

I haven't thought of that in years. I'm going to have to try that next range session.
Hence the term "Shooting from the hip".

The very first police shooting oriented book I bought as a very young officer (24 or 25 years old) was an autographed copy of "No Second Place Winner", by none other than Bill Jordan.
It was his contention the closeness of the adversary dictated the position of your weapon when drawn.
If extremely close you draw the weapon and bring it to bear on the adversary immediately - without extending the arm - and begin shooting almost at once.
This would be from 0 to 3 yards.
Past that from 3 to 7 yards you draw and extend the shooting arm out until the upper part of the arm is parallel, or slightly past your body.
At 7 to 15 yards use both hands
Past that use the sights.

I practiced the draw and fire until I was satisfied with my speed and accuracy.

Hip shooting is much like what we see in the classic western "2 men in the street shootout", and can indeed be quite accurate.

This is nothing more than developing a psycho-motor skill - hand and eye coordination with muscle memory and there is virtually no limit to how good you can get with enough practice.

BTW - I was using a S&W Model 10 and a Jordan River holster.
With the holster unsnapped and ready the draw and fire can be extremely quick.
Now that holster was not good for weapon retention when unsnapped.
Subsequently I used other issue holsters of a "security design", and found more practice necessary to obtain a speedy draw.

BTW - Bill Jordan could put a coin on the back of his hand, while being held parallel with the ground, drop his hand to begin his draw, draw and fire and hit the coin before it hit the ground.
No bull.

I practiced until I could hit a wadded up piece of paper (don't laugh, it is a lot harder than it sounds) like Jordan could a coin, and I was one of the fastest, if not the fastest, especially among law enforcement circles, around.

The proficiency I developed served me well. It kept me alive and gave me a confidence I could survive hostile encounters most others simply did not have.
Confidence will give you a body language that is universal.


Above all, no matter what your shooting philosophy is and what techniques you use to train with, virtually the most important aspect of it all is practice.
It does not matter how good you used to be, it matters how good you are now.

[PARA FN FAL]

I would like to add a little to this topic by saying that I just returned from Front sight and it realy opened my eyes. I learned a lot even though I have been shooting for years. I had a chanse to watch other people and compare my self to them and then determine why they did better than me or didn't do better. It was great to see some people who thougth there weapons were perfect to have failures. Not because I hate them but that is what training is for. Make your mistakes or failures in training so that they don't happen when the SHTF. I was the only guy there with a FN FAL and it was great. My weapon had one type 3 malfunction due to the mag but ran fine for the rest of the class. It hasn't been cleaned for a while and it still worked fine. C1 mag pouches were used by 3 other guys there beside myself and while not high speed they were very good. While we did limited night firing the old Belgian flash hider was very good at keeping flash down and seemed much nicer than the 308s with muzzle breaks. I was also suprised that while some ARs had little to no flash others looked like flame throwers. While Front Sight is NOT the last word in firearms trainning they did a lot with what they had everyone came out with a better idea of strong and weak points. the main things that I came away with is dry practice for about 15 minutes a day. Practice in your gear for dry and live fire. And take some kind of trainning in the future to see if you skills and gear are up to date .

[Deltaten]

Bruce:

But, then there was the fella that swears he saw Jordan actually hit that Silver dollar TWICE! ;)

Of course, Jordan never came right out and called hima liar, but..........

See! I read it too! :) 'Twas my primer into gunhandling and shooting. A very profitable enterprise. I *still* can shoot the old '66, outta duty gear as fast (almost ;) ) as my high-speed/low drag, super comp, semi-auto gear! Hip-shots 'n all!

The way is in the training....

AT the recently attended FALfest; during the 200yd pop-ups, I commited a faux-pas of potentially [real world] dangerous proportions. AFter a quick, strategic mag change, I racked the action...Oooops! Let a live round out of the chamber and slammed in another. Nothing life threatening on the range; but NOT having that [extra] round in a nasty situation *could* be a critical mistake.
Then again, better to be sure of a live one in the chamber, than tohave the gun go "CLICK" ona full mag! (a rationalization!)

I've trained myself to [subliminally] count rounds expended, just to be able to avoid this . I *did* the same in this instance; I had one left in the mag, seen during the change. But, I invaryably swat the CH upon inserting a mag and thusly, did it there too.

Since the whole string was shot on the "Zen" method, I figger it was Karma anyway! ;) I will mind the hot mag changes NEXT time.

Regards,
Paul

[ONG]

Deltaten,

Just completed an advanced handgun course with John Farnam last weekend. He taught us to rack the slide every time we changed mags. His thought was, better a round on the ground and know you have a round chambered than point the gun and hear a loud click.

One fellow did not do this, to save on ammo I assume, he did a mag change but no round chambered. His gun went click. John told him that it was a good thing that his target was not a real BG.

Course your milage may vary, but I rack the slide on reload and if I have time top off the mag.

[farranger]

James Yeager and all his guys from Tactical Response teach the same thing. Round on the ground.

[Farmer from Hell]

Im looking at this place (http://www.valhallashootingclub.com/).

They have gotton some good talk on Glock Talk.

They have a complete house mockup along with a convenience store and subway station etc to shoot in. Thats a whole lot more appealing to me than pumping rounds into a berm.

Besides the beer flows like wine in Colorado.:biggrin:

FfH

[rcnpthfndr]

for those of you in the PAC Norwest. go to boomershoot in Idaho and talk to MR. Gene Econ. He runs a precision Rifle class for a day. this guy has a SOCOM military back ground that is as clear as a ocean fog bank on a port city. Gene, has been a mentor, Trainer and friend for several years. he instructs all the close quarters marksmanship, SDM and Sniper Training for the stryker brigades, ranger battalion and group at Fort Lewis. hes a civillian who loves to shoot and has the unique ability to make Mil dot formulas easy. i dont work for him, even though i wish i did. he's a remarkable resource who loves to teach other the skills necessary to be a better marksman

[Deltaten]

So I guess I ben doin' it right, all along! ;)

Thanks,Paul