Why in HELL would you want to be "debt-free" before TSHTF/TEOTWAWKI???

[Enquiring Minds]

I've seen several references to long-term survival plans being impeded or outright unworkable unless you are debt-free, and always without any explanation... WTH?

Let's think about this folks: if TSHTF/TEOTWAWKI happens, it's because The Man, The Establishmet, FEDGOD (pick your metaphor) has completely screwed the pooch and collapsed, and this includes the huge but fragile institutions which hold your mortgage and other debt instruments.

Seems to me that'd be the PERFECT TIME TO BE IN DEBT UP TO YOUR EYEBALLS, eh? You could be laughin' your well-prepared rapidly-adaptable ASS off as you fondle the REAL goods that you traded for the now-FAKE paper credit! Talk about coming out ahead, and "sticking it to The Man"!!

In fact I'll go one further and say that if you truly think TSHTF is a real enough possibility to make extensive preps for (and many here do), then ALL of the big ticket items for such preps (structures, vehicles, in-ground tanks) should be bought ONLY on credit... have now, pay later, knowing later will never come... yes/no?


Repo Man? Bummer... he looked just like a LOOTER in my NVD... BWU-HAHAHAHA!

[GySgt D]

Yeah, it's a great idea until you discover that you are in debt up to your eyeballs, and TEOTWAWKI hasn't yet happened. After listening to the professional doomsayers for the past twenty years, I now take their prognostications with a grain of salt.

It took me years and years to crawl out from the debt trap. Most of my tools and supplies were purchased with a Visa card. Add the interest in there, and you end up paying a lot more than the sticker price for stuff. Right now I am debt free, and don't have to rely on a catastrophe for my economic salvation.

The stress of debt really wears on you.

[gewehrmonkey]

SHTF and TEOTWAWKI depend largely on your point of view. The great depression was to many, TEOTWAWKI. Part of it's devastation was that people were so heavily indebted. If a major catastrophe hits your area, think NOLA, do you really think that the bank you have your home loan through, CC companies and financial institutions are not prepared to swoop in and salvage what they can? It won't be long before we start hearing the horror stories about foreclosures from Katrina when all of the .gov $$ dries up.
I agree that in the case of a TOTAL collapse, you'd get the last laugh, but I live in Nevada and know better than to put it all on one number, hoping that fate will drop the ball in your slot. The odds are always with the house, or "theMan".

[Rawles]

First: Consider this: I had a good friend that had the same attitude. Back in 1999, despite my warnings, he was maxing out all of his credit cards. He was convinced that Y2K was going to be the start of "The Big Whammy", so he over-extended his credit, stocking up on everything imaginable. Even though he was a well-paid Physician's Assistant (PA), making 2X the prevailing wage in the area (northern Idaho), once he went into debt, he found that he couldnt get out. This got him increasingly depressed. He finally relieved himself of his debt burden with one shot from a Makarov to the roof of his mouth, in July, 2005.

Second, Consider that one possibility is a deflationary depression. Anyone that was in debt got the worst of it in the 1930s. Granted, an inflationary depression is more likely. But even in inflationary times you still need income to service debt. And if there is widespread unemployment, there will be a lot of people defaulting on debts, regardless of a high inflation rate.

[JoeLad]

The only way one would benefit from high debt in an EOTWAWKI scenario is just that. A complete shutdown of society as we now know it. Something akin to all out nuclear war, or mass extinction of the species.
Just because there's no electricity or running water for a few months does not mean you will be absolved of your mortgage or credit card debt.

Lending institutions have extensive records and long memories.

JoeLad:D

[fastfreddy]

The American banking system is prepared for TEOTWAWKI. The Federal Reserve system has hardened locations with back-up records and systems. I expect that in a survival situation, the banks will strive to survive. They are prepared to survive. This means they will not ultimately walk away from what is theirs.

[I am bob]

Enquiring Minds , theres a number of scenario's that exist. Superinflation or total end of our economy as we know it is just one of those. Major economic depression is a very real possibility that one should prepare for. Over on frugal's theres a dude that calls himself FERFAL ... go read his posts about how the banks treated people when the economy went in the crapper in argentina. Basically the house payment is still due on the first, car payment same deal, loans - yep they want that money too. The major problem with a collapsed economy over superinflation is that people dont have the $$$ to pay back - then the bank repo's everything. Apparently the multi-national banks had a field day down there - many of them US based - ergo they will do the same here under the same circumstances.

(I would post some FERFAL Quotes here, but frugals owns the copyright on that stuff)

[TheOtherChris]

One thing that needs to be remembered is it is
TheEndOfTheWorldAsWeKnowIt.

This may include everyone else but probably won't.
Unless the collapse is total and at LEAST nationwide, the banks will come after you for what you owe.

One of the things I do in my profession is foreclose real estate loans.
A very few of the homes lost are the result of catastrophic illness and the med bills that follow.
Most are the result of too much consumer debt followed by what would otherwise been a hiccup in income.

Also: Bankruptcy does not stop a foreclosure on your home. It only slows it down by a couple of months.

"Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands, or orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you"

[gunseller]

The Oct. 1 change in the bankruptcy laws maybe a prep. to guard banks, c.c. companies and other lenders holdings. It maybe for something that they think is coming in 6 months or 6 years or 60 years they are just covering their asses. If everyone can only make a $200 month payment and yours is $400 they will repo it for you and sell it to someone else that can make the $200 payment. They don't write it down for you to $200 payment. The idea is to punish you not reward you. Debt that is used to produce income can be good. Debt for a dead horse (house, car, C.C.) usually is not real good.
Gunseller

[Merl]

debt free in preperation is mostly dependant on what you expect from "the end". I see a financial collapse more likely than anything else so want to be able to weather it as well as possible.
I know from my past, if the money shuts off I eat beans but I still eat. If im in debt up to my eyeballs next time I'll be sleeping under an overpass.

one thing that makes me take note is, the way our govt has been spending money makes me think they are preparing for a slightly different version of "the end"

[Fn/form]

Having debt... almost always means paying proportionate interest. Having house, car, etc. all adds up to paying for all the arms you could need, plus the item you "needed" anyway.

I believe there's a balance between what you need for this world and what you need for it's possible upset... plan wisely. ;-)

-josh

[Enquiring Minds]

Of course you guys are correct, all of you. That's why I posted this tongue-in-cheek, with the sunglasses-smiley.

However, a serious tangent to this is: How could you use a period of armed anarchy to "persuade" your local bank to "burn" your mortgage? After all, it wasn't you, the honest working man, who TOTALLY HOSED THE VALUE OF THE totally fiat GREENBACK, was it?

Or from another angle, it really wouldn't take much terrorizing of the local constabulary, to shutdown repo activity cold, especially if there was broad popular support for such. You'd hope that whatever was left functioning of .gov would pass "grace" laws, as seen in NOLA post-Katrina, but you know how slowly .gov moves sometimes.

Food for thought. A rifle is useless without targets, eh? Do you have a range card for Fannie Mae's data center?... BWU-HAHAHA!

[fastfreddy]

And, do you know where FNMA's hardened backup server farm is? They're ready for you.

Even if the greenback is "hosed", real property will still have value. The "haves" took a LOT of it from the "have nots" in previous economic "troubles". Of course, there have been times when the "have nots" took a LOT of it from the "haves" during times of social/political/revolutionary "troubles".

It seems that property and power are always in demand. Why choose to give anybody power over your property if there is an alternative? Why choose to protect it from physical assault but put it at risk to lugubrious lawyas?

[MajHenryWest]

If you can manage to live without the use of too much credit, you likely have your house in order and possess many attributes which would be useful in any situation.

If you are in serious debt and have financial troubles, yet can figure out how to get out of debt, forego easy credit and spend less than you earn, you likely have developed the focus, drive and tenacity that would serve you well in a disaster or "TEOTWAWKI" scenario.

The "survivor" mindset must be developed, and in some ways "lived" before one can rely on it.

[Draven]

Banks back up their data every day to secure locations- most are buried in old mines, inside mountains.

[Seventh Fleet]

If you are counting on TSTHTF to wipe the slate clean for you, odds are you're going to end up a homeless refugee. Being debt free on your own paid for piece of dirt in an paid for energey efficient house, with a good woodheater is the best way to greet an uncertain future.

Those who think that they will eventually be able to welch on their debts are simply barking up the wrong tree. Even during the "great depression" the system still worked and people lost their homes and farms if they couldn't keep up the payments. It would take a total nuclear war that destroyed society, for the system to become so fouled up, inorder for the pipe dreams, of the deadbeats who are counting on the collapse of society, to save them from their own folly to come true.

7th

[CZ-75a]

Originally posted by Seventh Fleet
If you are counting on TSTHTF to wipe the slate clean for you, odds are you're going to end up a homeless refugee. Being debt free on your own paid for piece of dirt in an paid for energey efficient house, with a good woodheater is the best way to greet an uncertain future.



What about the rent you owe the govt.? They'll be after you for property tax.

[Seventh Fleet]

Good point about the property tax and that's an importat issue. This is where it pays to have the money in a savings acount to pay the property tax for several years into the future, should you lose your income for whatever reason. It is also crucial to buy your homestead property in an area that has very low property tax rates. What I did among other things, was to buy silver eagles, back when they were cheap. I put them up in a safe place, with their sole purpose being for use in very hard times. Should that event happen in my lifetime, I can always sell them and pay the property taxes.

7th

[STGThndr]

Face it, most of us old farts won't live a month past our stockpiled medications. I hope for my kids to pull thru tho, based on what theyve been taught and what we have available. As far as debt goes, best to avoid it because short of a revolution the little people will be cast-off refugees.

[Ricketts]

But, heck--who's to say that the money you saved will have any value other than kindling? Pay the property taxes with the worthless paper we have in our wallets now?

I don't believe in metals. You can't eat them. How would you trade an oz of gold for a side of beef or bushel of tomatos?

I am also concerned about the pending financial collapse. The Fed is doing it's best to make sure we are all slaves to China. THey allow and encourage our manufacturing jobs go to China. They borrow from China in frightening amounts PER DAY!!

Go ahead--pay off your land. It won't matter. They will take your property thru whatever means possible. The new Eminent Domain rulings are case in point.

So, that all said, I am at a loss as to what to keep as chattel or trade bait.

[CZ-75a]

Originally posted by Ricketts
But, heck--who's to say that the money you saved will have any value other than kindling? Pay the property taxes with the worthless paper we have in our wallets now?

I don't believe in metals. You can't eat them. How would you trade an oz of gold for a side of beef or bushel of tomatos?

I am also concerned about the pending financial collapse. The Fed is doing it's best to make sure we are all slaves to China. THey allow and encourage our manufacturing jobs go to China. They borrow from China in frightening amounts PER DAY!!

Go ahead--pay off your land. It won't matter. They will take your property thru whatever means possible. The new Eminent Domain rulings are case in point.

So, that all said, I am at a loss as to what to keep as chattel or trade bait.

Paying property tax will be all the worthless paper in your wallet would still be good for.

Best way to stay afloat would be to figure out how to manufacture (with minimal technology/sophistication) something folks in a depleted future would still want/need and place yourself in a resource-rich area to supply your trade. Carpentry and blacksmithing would be my choices.

[TheOtherChris]

Originally posted by Ricketts
Go ahead--pay off your land. It won't matter. They will take your property thru whatever means possible. The new Eminent Domain rulings are case in point.

Get to know your City Council and/or County Commissioners personally.
If you leave a message for them do they think well enough of you to return your call? If they see you in the hall of the courthouse, will they ask how your family is.......or call Security?

The town I live in is quite small and I personally know ALL of the elected officials. I know them well enough that we chat in the supermarket.
We are friends and this goes a long way towards staiving off a threat of Eminent Domain.

[Batman]

Originally posted by Ricketts
....The new Eminent Domain rulings are case in point.

Well, eminent domain requires a reason. You not paying your taxes is not a reason.

What you do is buy your "place in the country" with a mortage on your existing house (assuming you like in the city and have some equity in it). Pay off the country hide-a-way. Place it in a trust so it can't be touched. If the SHTF walk away from your city place and let the bank have it.

If I could take out a 50 mortgage I would. I can't take my house with me when I die so it's all just a payment, so it might as well be as small of one as can be. When I'm dead I won't care.

[Jez Cruzen]

Just an interesting side note to the many posts submitted here on the thread that I listened to the other day while watching Fox News - Several economists were avocating the implementation of the Old Testiment "Jubilee". If you will remember, in Isreal at the time, Jubliee was granted once every 50 years to wipe clean all debt.

The economists state that our young people have become enslaved to debt already due to easy credit, and for our country to survive, this debt burden must be removed periodically. They stated that there is no way for the majority of our youth to ever remove themselves from the crippling effects of high debt and bad credit in their life times.

I remember an old Tennessee Ernie Ford song about "oweing my soul to the company store". That's about the way life is for many folks, now. The most recent changes in the bankruptsie laws at the urging of the credit card companies will only work to ensure their enslavement

[gunplumber]

Originally posted by Jez Cruzen


The economists state that our young people have become enslaved to debt already due to easy credit, and for our country to survive, this debt burden must be removed periodically. They stated that there is no way for the majority of our youth to ever remove themselves from the crippling effects of high debt and bad credit in their life times.

There certaintly is no way - as long as the youth want to continue living their spendfree lives.

When cell phones, cable TV, custom ring tones and a $30k car are "necessities" to an 18 year old, debt is sure to ruin their lives.

I had a good job and lots of $$ when I was in my early 20s. Bought some cool stuff and a car I couldn't afford on credit. No problem with the payments. Then I got activated for Desert storm and my income was slashed by 75%. My entire paycheck didn't cover my car payment & insurance.. I got out of desert storm around $52,000 in debt. It took me 3-4 years of working two and three jobs and eating rice and beans and rice to get out of it. But most important, was the attitude adjustment. I now see credit as evil, the debtor a slave, and have avoided all consumer credit and my shop is paid and the house on year 3 of a 15 year mortgage.

In another thrtead I said there was something spiritual about being debt free, but when asked to elaborate, I couldn't come up with a way of describing it.

When I was in debt, I was unhappy. My life revolved around fighting this "war" with the creditors. Trying to balance integrity "yes, I did sign on the dotted line" with wanting to cheat the lendor in retaliation for $50/ month late fee, $50 a month over limit fee, default interest rate of 25+%, etc.

ESPECIALLY since, I called the credi card company before deployment and they told me I could not get on a modified paymet schedule until I was 6 months delinquent - didn't bother to mention the soldiers and sailers act . . .. .

But I gotta say, there is a good feeling to know the lowest my bank account can ever get is zero. That I can pay a full tithe without worry, and that there is usually enough in the budget to eat out once a week.

Yeah - business has been pretty good, but from a purely dollar and cents point of view, my "extra income" was always there - I was just sending it right out again in interest payments.

[Ricketts]

If I am not mistaken, the basis of the "New and Improved" eminent domain rules are an expansion of confiscation of land for the public good. That new housing development comes to mind.

Now, lets say the SHTF and they 'need' your land to use as collateral or debt relief for all the now worthless dollars the FedGov has borrowed from China. China agrees to wipe out the debt generated by the Gov for say, free and clear possession of say, Ohio.

BAM!! There goes my state. My land. My home. And everything I pay for. You think they are gonna give a damn about poor ol' Ricketts? Think about it--what if they want New York or California? While it is tempting to give away those bastions of Liberal Lunacy--what would it do to the already shattered economy?? Katrina gave us $3 a gallon gas and it really isn't a player in our economy as much as NY or CA.

Not too far fetched. It has happened in the past. The Louisiana Purchase comes to mind--but that one was in our favor. It CAN go the other way. Why not?? Do you thing Joe and Mary Sixpack would do anything to stop it? How could they? They are trying to disarm us now, all over!! And while some of us own guns--are they really a match to the technology these two superpowers have? And the riots of 1918 show that the Gov WILL fire upon it's citizens. Hell--WACO and Ruby Ridge are more recent examples.

Unfortunately, I don't see this as a "What if?" thing any longer. I went to Cabela's a couple weeks ago. I wager 85% of everything I looked at in there clothing wise was made somewhere other than here. Shoes, too. THe gun aisle--that wwas decidedly US. BUt the balance? Foreign. A whole store of goods NOT made here by US workers. And a whole store full fo transactions and sales routing dollars back to buy bullets for our enemies.

THis is gonna happen--but the issue is--what to do and how to prepare? The SHTF scenario is not going to be nuclear. It will be economic due to our leaders shortsightedness.

[fusalautoleger]

i work for aliving and im debt free ..if i cant pay for it now i dont need it..but then a again im a metal worker --by training like in blacksmithing-- but a mason - carpenter-- machinest- gunslinger .. its not not i never did it for uncle sam.. he tought me many things.. as in like how it operates ..law of the land is still surpreme..just remembor they take it an yard at a time. thats when they exspanp your rural road ..thats how they do it.. its how they make one lane roads into four lane hiways..lets put it this way if your name was not put in the great book of your county when you where bourn then you are in deabt.. that stopped in 1940..your birth cert was sold in a straw man deal to the fed..gov..you owe ricght off the bat $400.000 just for being bourn...unless you in what is defined as dollers / not ferns you owe a deabt..dollers are backed by gold and sivler coin.. as per the us constatuion...unless you paid in gold and sivler your in deabt

[JJMRR]

Last time this topic came up, someone mentioned the idea that there is more than just financial freedom in being debt free.

The biggest advantage I can see is the mental liberation. There is something that weighs on you when you have a debt that you know with even $300 or $400 a month you are going to be paying for years. And I had no problems meeting my obligations. That car is going to be a piece of shit before you even pay it off. You may be forced to stay in that crappy job because you can't afford a cut in pay.

I find that I enjoy life more because when I do buy something, or take a trip, I'm not worried about whether or not I can afford it. And I find I need LESS -- a lot less in life to feel comfortable. I think we use our consumerism as a form of our identity. We are what we can afford to buy.

The biggest advantage of living debt free is that your money goes further and buys more. I can tell you that I have more money to spend living debt-free on slightly less than six figures, than I ever did having tremendous consumer debt on $250,000 a year income. I think many people would be surprised if they added up how much the spent in interest each month and how much of their monthly income went to payments. That's money you're not able to use for anything else, it's already committed. How many of us have organized our lives to be able to support our debt, such as having a wife working because we need two incomes, or living in area we hate because we can't afford to change jobs?

The hardest part was the shot my ego took when I scaled way back. Comfort wise, my life has not changed and I would say has even improved greatly. Although I don't always take advantage of it, I have more TIME. But it is clear I am not keeping up with the Joneses. And sometimes it's tough when your neighbor shows off his new fishing boat, or a relative takes a European vacation and everyone appears to be better off than you. It seems like everyone is living better, and they are, but at a much higher price.

It's a tough adjustment.

[TheOtherChris]

Originally posted by JJMRR
I think we use our consumerism as a form of our identity. We are what we can afford to buy.

The hardest part was the shot my ego took when I scaled way back. Comfort wise, my life has not changed and I would say has even improved greatly. Although I don't always take advantage of it, I have more TIME. But it is clear I am not keeping up with the Joneses. And sometimes it's tough when your neighbor shows off his new fishing boat, or a relative takes a European vacation and everyone appears to be better off than you. It seems like everyone is living better, and they are, but at a much higher price.

It's a tough adjustment.

Changing this mindset is key to financial independence.
The idea that conspicuous consumption equals success greatly impairs true freedom. Debt is bondage to another. The work must be performed because the labor has already been sold; often for a product or service that is no longer remembered.

Our society respects the large house, fancy cars and expensive habits without regard to debt ratio.:rolleyes:

Pride perpetuates the situation. People continue to buy what they don't need and/or can't afford so as to impress their associates or reward themselves.

[C2A1]

This is so true. I sold my buisness several years ago and became debt free (not enough to retire but debt free with cash put away, and a year vacation.) People were giving advice to by an escalade or Lexus, buy a new bigger house, etc. I thought about it and kept my 87 toyota, restorted my 68 charger and bought an AMX to fix up and fixed all the little things in my home.
Once the bills were paided, the house and cars fixed it was amazing what I could afford and not go into long term debt. (yes I use the credit cards but with a 0% interest for 9 months and then pay it off.)
I am invisible to most people. By not buying new "junk", the money I am saving by not paying sales taxes and insurance on new vehicles, property taxes etc is amazing. I really beleive we are conditioned to buy, buy, spend, spend to acheive a mental high which doesn't last long. I now look at people with these big homes and new vehicles and laugh and am reminded what my grandfather use to say "A fool and his money are soon parted". If I want to look "cool" I go down to the car rental and buy it for the weekend.
I have started a new buisness thru leveraging my cash and it is going very well. my wife and I are planning to remodel the house we are in and make it more energy efficent etc and just cruise and enjoy our youth, while we are still heathly.
Not interested in the "Rat Race".

[kaiserworks]

For some of us, debt free is just not an option. Where I live, a one bedroom condo in the ghetto goes for about $400k, a starter home; $600 - $700k. Property taxes are $2500 every six months. With those kinds of prices, even the most frugal person will have debt. The wife and I are working to change that by moving to another, less expense, more gun-friendly part of the country but until then debt is a fact of life.

Best way to stay afloat would be to figure out how to manufacture (with minimal technology/sophistication) something folks in a depleted future would still want/need

In my current neighborhood, that would mean a productive crystal meth lab or high yield hydroponic pot growing system;)

Most people think the SHTF senario will be a nuclear / biological attack, dirty bomb or financial meltdown. I think these are far fetched. I think the most rational threat is an EMP attack. Frugalsquirrels.com has a good hypothetical story about this possible senario on their web site. For more factual reading try:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/ and do a search on EMP, lots of good articles.

[JJMRR]

The most difficult part of getting debt-free was bucking the American mindset. There were times when I just wanted to do what felt like the easy thing, like financing a new car because my old one was breaking down so much and it was getting expensive. Fixing it was still less than buying a new one.

The strange thing is that once I got debt free, I always had more money even with available credit. It was fairly easy to save up to buy a new car outright because I don't have a car payment and credit card payments. But when you really start looking at sticker prices versus monthly payment, buying something that big makes you pause for awhile. I can't think of too many times in my life where I wrote a check that big. It's a big shift in thinking.

So all my income beyond food, housing, fuel, etc. is pretty much disposable. That's a big chunk of change. Saving for something doesn't take long. I actually have more money now for luxury purchases, but I don't buy them as often because I know that money is coming directly out of my checking account. That's the difference between using credit, you're going to see the money go out the window immediately.

It took years to get there and a lot of self-discipline, but it was worth it. I think having a five year plan would be wise. I fully expect to take on another mortgage soon, so I won't be fully debt-free. I think that would be pretty unreasonable to try as save for a house. But I think everyone can start moving in the direction by getting rid of the revolving credit. I have my debit card and an Amex, that's it.

[gunplumber]

Originally posted by kaiserworks
For some of us, debt free is just not an option.

I'm going to leave the home mortgage alone for now, but as far as "consumer debt" goes, if you can't afford it now, how on earth will you afford "it"+ compound interest?

[Witchhunter]

if you can't afford it now, how on earth will you afford "it"+ compound interest?


Words of wisdom.:eek:

[Enquiring Minds]

Originally posted by gunplumber


I'm going to leave the home mortgage alone for now, but as far as "consumer debt" goes, if you can't afford it now, how on earth will you afford "it"+ compound interest?

FEDGOD is going to re-train him for a career in nano-technology... lol.

It seems that the PTBs are out of viable ideas for a sustainable USA, and are just feathering THEIR nests and packing THEIR parachutes.

[Enquiring Minds]

Originally posted by MajHenryWest
If you can manage to live without the use of too much credit, you likely have your house in order and possess many attributes which would be useful in any situation.

If you are in serious debt and have financial troubles, yet can figure out how to get out of debt, forego easy credit and spend less than you earn, you likely have developed the focus, drive and tenacity that would serve you well in a disaster or "TEOTWAWKI" scenario.

The "survivor" mindset must be developed, and in some ways "lived" before one can rely on it.

Touche'! Well stated.

The TOTAL collapse scenario is so unlikely as to not be a justifiable "event horizon" or planning criterion. The Great Depression was not a TOTAL collapse, just a significant one, and it COULD happen again. Read up on it. (Myself, I need to read up on FDR's gold confiscation E.O... hard to imagine such in an age of unrestricted Thompsons and BARs, but there it is... )

In that GD era, those who entered it with cash on hand scooped up mega bargains, REAL estate and REAL physical plant for pennies on the dollar. Call it the vulture fund. Hey, wasn't YOU who jumbled the house of cards... no reason you can't capitalize on the machinations of the Skull & Bones crowd.

[AzDak]

The biggest problem with consumer debt is that it stands in the way of wealth accumulation.

If you are living check to check, robbing card 1 to pay card 2, then odds are good you are not following an investment plan that will allow you to assure your financial security. Accumulating wealth is not about having enough to keep your trophey wife in boobjobs and vicoden, it's not about having a new car every other year.

It's about independance. It's the idea that you are secure and can make career and life decisions that are the 'right ones' instead of feeling forced into taking the 'right now' option.

The accumulation of wealth means more than just how much cash you have in the bank. It's about having a diverse portfolio that can take hits in various sectors and still leave you standing. My mantra is always about balance. Work toward owning property. Work toward having some assets that aren't driven by the stock market or dependant on an intact financial system.

It's not easy to curb our consumer instincts. The wife and I are working on it, but it takes a long time and requires a lot of hard choices.

G'luck,

AzDak

[ALL FAL]

Interesting thread...

[hagar]

The only reason to go big time into debt would be in a period of hyper inflation, when that $30,000 car will be 50,000 in 6 months. The opposite is happening at the moment.

But man, if I knew that a killer asteriod is heading towards earth, I will most seriously go totally hogwild before it hits.;)

[spatin]

++ Rawles ++

The "right" thing to do is to pay off your debts.

At least you can die with a clear conscience. :-)

Sidney

[Bawana jim]

"Debt" is your master. He controls your life in every way, even to what you are allowed to say. Only the free man can speak his mind without his debt kicking his behind. Tell the banks to go to hell and life will end up just swell.

There are alot of ways to get out of debt but the lifestyle is too hard for those who have to "have things". I am out of debt except normal living exspenses. I am out of work yet worry little cause I owe no money. Debt free is the second best feeling in life.

jim:rofl: :rofl:

[gsmart]

Usually dont get into these, but this time I will break my rule.

SECURED debt (i.e. mortgage, car loan, etc. ) will not go away, short of all out nuclear war and minimizing it ahead of the type of collapse that is likely coming is certainly a very wise course of action. Paying it wont be optional. The consequenses of not are homelessness or worse.

Credit Card debt, on the other hand, is UNSECURED debt. At the end of the day, even in spite of President w jr and his cronies best efforts to make it otherwise, CC debt can be essentially walked away from IN A CRISIS SITUATION. The best the credit card slave masters can do at the end of the day is get a judgement against you and then try to enforce it. If you have not a pot to piss in, then enforcing it is pretty problematic, unless you live in the communist west or northeast. There is no more Debtors Prison (although he does still have 92 days left of his 100)

Most Red States limit the ability of a creditor to seize any Real Property or assets that you might need in a SHTF scenario and lets face it, after a SHTF, who cares if they take your stocks and bonds or that fishing boat anyway? In Texas, they cant garnish wages, they cant take your house, they cant take most personal effects, they cant take your primary car. Basically they can only get luxury items, portfolios etc. and once again, at that point theyre worthless anyway, right?

I'm not saying its right or proper and I wont even touch the moral or ethical implications, but after 2 costly divorces and a custody battle, I personally have no choice but to be in debt to CC's. In good times, I plan to honor those debts.

In bad times, I intend to make my (purposely affordable) Mortgage payment.

[Jez Cruzen]

If I can't pay for it within 30 days, then I don't buy it. New car or truck? Forgetaboutit! I'll never buy another new vehicle.... ever.

Its great knowing that every brick, every nail, every blade of grass or tree is mine. That is until I think of my local government and their lecherous hold on my wealth through taxes!

Anyway, owning your own sh!t, regardless of how rundown it may be, is way better than paying "Billy Banker" or the parasitic credit card companies.

[TheOtherChris]

Originally posted by ALL FAL
Interesting thread...

What's most interesting is that it is three years old

[JJMRR]

I received a notice that this thread was active again.

Just as an update, I took on a mortgage back in 2006, for a home that was 20% below market price for the neighborhood and 10% below seller's asking price. The mortgage was less than I was paying in rent.

Since last September, the house has lost about 10% of what I've paid, and I'm not yet underwater.

I still have no car payment, no credit card debt and I live even more frugally.

Going through this economic depression has been much easier for me than most folks. I've got six months to a year's worth of expenses saved, a year's supply of food, a garden and some sort of plan. I start slashing those expenses where I could, like lowering my insurance coverage, getting rid of the cell phone, etc.

I can't imagine how I would be feeling now if I was in debt. I've got some semblance of peace of mind.

[Tak]

Originally posted by Enquiring Minds
I've seen several references to long-term survival plans being impeded or outright unworkable unless you are debt-free, and always without any explanation... WTH?

Let's think about this folks: if TSHTF/TEOTWAWKI happens, it's because The Man, The Establishmet, FEDGOD (pick your metaphor) has completely screwed the pooch and collapsed, and this includes the huge but fragile institutions which hold your mortgage and other debt instruments.

Seems to me that'd be the PERFECT TIME TO BE IN DEBT UP TO YOUR EYEBALLS, eh? You could be laughin' your well-prepared rapidly-adaptable ASS off as you fondle the REAL goods that you traded for the now-FAKE paper credit! Talk about coming out ahead, and "sticking it to The Man"!!

In fact I'll go one further and say that if you truly think TSHTF is a real enough possibility to make extensive preps for (and many here do), then ALL of the big ticket items for such preps (structures, vehicles, in-ground tanks) should be bought ONLY on credit... have now, pay later, knowing later will never come... yes/no?


Repo Man? Bummer... he looked just like a LOOTER in my NVD... BWU-HAHAHAHA!

Depends on the type of SH, but yeah, you're right. If things look bad, run up that credit card and get tangible goods.

Credit card debt is unsecured anyway. if everything melts down, what is VISA going to do, come to your house and repossess your canned foods and ammo? NOT !

[fusalautoleger]

i know for a fact that the major players have hardened their data centers ..i worked on one ..for city group .. they oever 16 inches of steal reinforced concreate on their roofs ..they spent over $500.000.000 on just one place ....they have 12 generators putting out over 13.000 watts each .. ..oh they have a 30 foot berm around the building .. with watch towers .. holder construction has been building these things for these guys over the last few years ..they can build one in less then 18 months and the roof is not one pour ..its layered .. and emp proof .. yea go into debt ..im not in debt never been in debt ..i pay for what i want and need ..grew up around too many people that live in the 30s here ..i dont even have a credit score..when you buy out right you dont get one ..cars i bought good ones just not new ..i have 2 20 year old cars /truck ..i can fix both of them ..i have a girl friend that just has to have a newer car all the time .. and they are front wheel drive ..just junk.. just to keep you in debt ....but if you know that all out nuke war is gonna happen if you gotten smokem ..but you wont be able to doo that ..so just get togeather with some of your friends and get the crap you need .. pay what you need but spead it out over a lot of people and build a MAG ..

[fusalautoleger]

go to holer construction you will get 10 hits right off the bat ..go to their data and tect section .. they have built over 90 data centers ..world wide ..go ahead look them up ..that just one construction company

[fusalautoleger]

holder construction ..look at what they have for some of their past jobs .. look at some of the names ..and see if you want to be in debt ..