Which cam installed in Trilux SUIT scope?

[Eclipse]

Have read there were both .223 and .308 cams for the SUIT scope. How do you identify which cam is installed?

Are there online instructions how to change the cam when putting a SUIT on an AR15?

[SteveW]

I think that this thread came the closest to the answer... Still not 'definitive'.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22061

[Da Nerd]

I think most (if not all) Trilux sights are equipped with 5.56 cams.
Nobody seems to be able to find a 7.62 and the dimensions seem so close no one can really say which is which.

[brownknees]

I have both cams. the "223" has no markings at all. My 7.62 has a "7" stamped on the boss just under the lever, but I don't think its a standard practice.
Dimensionally there is so little difference that if you zeroed at 250m or 300 yd I think you'd be fine with either one. I've miked mine & can't find any real difference. The thoery is that when the Izzys got the cams they just re-set the zero with M16's & remarked the zeroes to fit the different trajectory of the .2233 round. I'm beginning to think this is exactly what happened.
When it gets less frigid I'm going to haul 2 SUIT's ( 1 Izzy & 1 brit) to the range & do a test with the 3 cams ( 2 in thoery 7.62 & one .223) I'll have then. Meanwhile just zero at 250~300 and hope for warm weather.
To change the cam: Unscrew the hex bolt at the top of the lever. Remove the bolt & tubular cover. Turn the cammed shaft till the flat on the "axle" lines up with the front of the SUIT & it will drop free. Reassembly is the opposite.
Gee I guess that means Da Nerd thinks I'm nobody, cause nobody's got one!:rofl: :cry: :rofl: :eek:

[Da Nerd]

I was trying to say..."Nobody has any to sell".

[brownknees]

OK I stand corrected. I'm not selling mine either! At least till it gets warm enough to do the tests here.
:wink: :wink:

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

To the best of my knowledge there aren't two different cams for the L2A2 SUIT Sights. I could contact the company that made then and ask but I think their answer will be the same as mine below.

The original SUIT sights has just the one cam, this cam was the same used on the
L1A1/FAL
M16
G3
L7A2/MAG58/M240
84 mm Carl Gustav AT Gun

All that happened was the ranging cam distance was altered

Standard for the 7.62 mm L1A1 was; Forward: 500m Back: 300m

This would mean there is a slight difference for the 5.56mm round and from memory it's; Forward: 400m Back: 250m.

Same cam, just a variation in the ranges.

[brownknees]

I finally got the Christmas Spirit out of my system enough to get an accurate measurement of my ".223" & my ".308" cams.
I did the measurements from a different point than I've heard of being done before, mainly to determine what (if any) difference there is between the two.
Here's how I measured.
Both cams were measured 3 times at each point to determine & eliminate any variation in measuring technique. All the measurements were within 0.0005" of each other, so I'm calling that the error tolerance.
The measurements were taken from the top of the "D" shaped shaft to a flat surface that the cam flats were firmly placed on. These measurements were then repeated with the cam flats placed firmly on the "pads" of the .223 & the .308 mounts, just to eliminate te possibilty that there was some change here. These measurements were made from the top of the "D" shaft to the top of the pad itself, not the cutout between the pads.
All the measurements were made ajacent to the inside flat of the cam surfaces, both the left & right. The test series was repeated on both cams, and at both the front & back settings of the cams.
I did not measure the actual distances, just the differences between the positions & the cams. In all cases, left/right; .223/.308 the measurements were averaged out to 0.005".
The only measurement larger than this was when the cam was switched from the front to the rear position, but the differences between that distance was also 0.005".
The logic behind measuring this way was to measure the angular tilt to the optical system, and it's differences (if any) between the two cams in both positions by picking the points where the mount/sight combination will exert bearing pressure, therefore tilt the optics.
As all the measurements were less than the error tolerance I feel safe in saying that THERE IS NO .223 OR .308 CAM, just a SUIT cam!
They are all the same piece of hardware, just zeroed differently to allow for the ballistic variation between the two rounds.
What I'd like to do, just to nail the coffin lid on this is to shoot a few 5 round groups, using both cams on the same sight & mount, and then see how this all proves out at 100 yds.
To really make the test definitave I'd like to repeat the test with the M16 mount & rifle, and then compare the two.
Unfortunately I don't have acces to an M16/AR15. If there's a member in my area willing to join in with a "15" I have the suits (1 brit ".308" & 1 Izzy ".223"), The mounts for both, and the "different" cams.
Please pm me if you'd like to become a ballistic mythbuster & make a whole bunch of SUIT owners happy.

:?

[NZ L1A1 Collector]

brownknees well done on your study, even if you got the AR15 mounts I don't believe you will find much of a difference. The thing is people think these sights are some kind of 'Sniper sight", they aren't.

The sight is a battle field optic that allows the solider to see better when he's shooting at dusk/night/dawn and to provide enhanced visibility during the day.

This is the reason there are no crosshairs, and why once zeroed the solider was to apply the 'aim off' principle to allow for wind and distance when shooting in the field.

[EMDII]

Originally posted by Da Nerd
I think most (if not all) Trilux sights are equipped with 5.56 cams.
Nobody seems to be able to find a 7.62 and the dimensions seem so close no one can really say which is which.

Most Israeli Trilux have 5.56 cams, and are converted. Most English SUITs are 7.62 cams.

[brownknees]

I couldn't agree more. This is not a "match" or "Target" optic.
I really believe there is no difference, other than the zeroing distances by caliber.
Unfortunately it's real hard to kill a myth, once it gets started.
Once I get the Brit SUIT I will do a range comparison/report. Hopefully that will kill this myth deadder than mutton!
I'm only including the 15/16 so that I can say that the test was fully documented & verified by a control.
Being "Chronologically Challenged" means that the Mk1a callibrated eyeball needs help & the SUIT is darn near perfect for doing that.
:sad: :eek: :fal:

[brownknees]

I meassured the cam on my Brit SUIT in the same way as I did the other two. Guess what? Within the same tolerances!
It's still colder than a well digger's posterior portions here, so hang in there for a range report.
Also a question:
Did the Brit SUIT labels normally have the Left/Right arrows iinstead of the near/far range settings? This is what is printed on the label for my new toy.
:confused:

[Windustsearch]

That is what is on mine too. They are replica stickers so not sure how accurate they are.

[Arby]

Originally posted by brownknees
Did the Brit SUIT labels normally have the Left/Right arrows iinstead of the near/far range settings? This is what is printed on the label for my new toy.
:confused:

The ones I have all have the Left/Right arrows. Two have "Reg. No"s stamped, one doesn't. The photos of Brit SUITS in the R. Blake Stevens tome all show the R/L arrow markings.

[2ifbyC]

Originally posted by brownknees
Unfortunately I don't have acces to an M16/AR15.

Well, if you would drag that sorry ass of yours down here we could take care of the 15/16 question in a more temperate climate! Hell, what's one more 'snowbird' at this time of year.:wink:

Nice work on the research!:bow:

[brownknees]

Tampa Bay in January! Sounds most salubrious!
'Course I'd have to watch out for giving out Coronorys to all the real old timers down there!:biggrin: :beer: :rofl:

[armynick]

Originally posted by NZ L1A1 Collector
To the best of my knowledge there aren't two different cams for the L2A2 SUIT Sights. I could contact the company that made then and ask but I think their answer will be the same as mine below.

The original SUIT sights has just the one cam, this cam was the same used on the
L1A1/FAL
M16
G3
L7A2/MAG58/M240
84 mm Carl Gustav AT Gun

All that happened was the ranging cam distance was altered

Standard for the 7.62 mm L1A1 was; Forward: 500m Back: 300m

This would mean there is a slight difference for the 5.56mm round and from memory it's; Forward: 400m Back: 250m.

Same cam, just a variation in the ranges.

Eh? Please explain the "Ranging cam "

Are you saying that the markings on the side are diferent?

[brownknees]

The ranging cam is a rotatable lever that moves the optic up/down by a pre-set amount, controlled by two cam flats that bear on the tabs at the rear of the "T" bar of the mount, when the lever is moved from the front to the rear position.
It is designed to give two different zero distances.
The pic of my Izzy SUIT in the next post shows this (the cam/lever is in the rear or 250 Meter position).
Yes that's exactly what the change was, they made a different label.
The .308 was marked (or not on some models) as 300 Yds (back) &500 Yds (foreward)
The .223 was marked as 250 meter (back) & 450 Meter( foreward)
The thoery (probably correct if you run the rounds thru a good ballistics program), is that these are compensations for the different trajectories.
This is just recalculating the trajectory instead of making a new cam.
As a follow up to this you can make the 2 points anything you like, as long as the DIFFERENCE between the two is accurate. For example you could make the (back) position zero at 100 Yds & then figure out the (front) position's zero by testing.
:wink: :eek:

[brownknees]

like this!