Where not to hunt for Elk!

[Batman]

Ford Creek Guest Ranch in Augusta, Montana. 19 hunters hunting for 6 days ended up shooting one Elk (a 6x6), 6 mule deer and one white tail deer. At the check in station other (happy) hunters said the Elk were in the North Fork watershed (and they had the Elk to prove it).

I learned alot but it was an expensive education.

[Andy the Aussie]

Sucks to find you have been hunting the wrong spot mate. I know I do a bit of out of season recce in the areas I hunt so I have a better idea when things are on the hop.

Andy:angel:

[splattermatic]

hey batman,
we talked about you on our elk hunt....
fill us in on what happened ??

tell the whole trip story,,,,


glad your back, sorry no elk...

[FortunateSon]

Man, sorry to hear that. Hope you had fun anyway.

[masman]

thats sucks.sounds like the fly in moose hunting trip my dad took a few years back in ontario. only one guy got a moose and that was the only one anybody saw.my dad said the only thing that kept him from wanting to kill the outfitter was that the weather was great. the pilot was awsome and he was no where near a phone just out in the middle of nowhere just relaxing with his friends.

[DYNOMIKE]

Just an observation, and please don't mis-interpret this, but I have a question?

I have been on many hunting and fishing trips over the years.
On "WAY" more times than I care to think I was flat "SKUNKED"!
I have spent many days and nights preparing for the event only to be dissapointed more times than "not".
From planning trips Hog hunting here in Fl (were most times I never even got a shot) Grouse hunting in Southeren Ohio, to fishing trips from Lake Erie, all the way down to the Marqueses. (Spelling?)
Were the Hunters "guaranteed" a shot, or a Trophy?
Was the outfitter negligent in his methods of tracking, or assistance to the hunters?
Again "No Flame" intended, just curious about the posts meaning?
I hope that you are very successful on your next hunt. I would love to do a hunt like that someday..:beer:

[Para Driver]

1) that's why they call it hunting..
2) I bet they move around, and two weeks earlier/later you would have been in the right spot...

been there, done that...

[Treborer]

In the mountains snow depth has a lot of effect on Elk, to pre-book an elk hunt for a specific location is a throw of the dice.

A good guide would have alternative locations as the snow builds and drives em down, in the area I lived the prime high ground , 9500 ft was private.

I lived at 8500, and the Elk would come down according to the snow depth.

Hunting was a matter of taking the screen off the bedroom window.

Sorry it didn't work out.
:)

[Batman]

Originally posted by limeyinaz
When your hunting there is no guarantee.
Yep! That's why it's called hunting and not shooting.
Originally posted by limeyinaz
To hold Ford Creek Guest Ranch in Augusta, Montana responsible for your lack of a kill speaks volumes about you as a hunter.
I can understand being disappointed, but you seem to be taking it a bit too extreme.
I don't hold them responsible for a lack of a kill. Your reading way too much in to what I wrote. If they knew that there were no elk in the area, and I suspect that they did, then they should move us to where we will "see" or likely see elk. that is what a good outfitter will do (know what the hell is going on) and they didn't do that, or even try.
Originally posted by limeyinaz
I got drawn for an early bull elk hunt, here in Arizona, back in 1995. ...Never saw fresh sign, tracks, hair nor hide....
But, damn did I have a good time hunting
I'm assuming that your lived there so I'll bet that hunt didn't cost you $6k!
Originally posted by limeyinaz
A guaranteed kill is a canned hunt.
I couldn't agree with you more!

Some additional information and my opinion.....since you asked,

The outfitter’s facility was OK. The Ranch was nice, very comfortable and clean with nice beds. The food was home cooked and was good but not gourmet. Lunches were a joke (two pieces of bread with some meat and cheese or peanut butter and jelly, that was it). The day guides worked well and tired hard but there were no elk (and after several days you could see that they knew it). I know there were no elk because each day my guide and I walked over 10 miles looking for them. We never busted an elk, any elk, cow or bull. We stalked for hours in the low thick timber along the creeks. We hit the high benches on mountains. We went all the way up to where the trees stopped growing about 8,000 feet. We hunted and stalked in a big old burn area, nothing. We had hunters in the high meadows and in the low meadows and watching the thick gullies in between. Nothing, and not much fresh sign either. On the second form the last day my guide asked me where I wanted to hunt! WTF!!! That's his job to take me to the elk. Of all the folks we had in the field (19) only 9 cows were seen for the entire 6 days of hunting. The one person who shot the only bull (one of 19 hunters) took it into Augusta for recording. When he was there another outfitter came in with 4 bulls. He was in the North Fork of the Sun River. He said they saw hundreds of elk and that, so far (it was the third day of their hunt), they were better than 50% success for their group. That outfitter asked where we were hunting and when told he said that the elk haven’t used Ford Creek Plateau for over 10 years (which could be BS who knows). Yes it was hot with temps in the mid 70-degree range. The nights were clear and with bright moonlight. So what! The outfitter used that excuse as the reason as to why we were unsuccessful. I say BS because of the other success of other outfitters north of us. The other thing that didn’t sit well with me is the fact that the night before the first hunt the outfitter said that neither he nor any of his guides had been into the areas where we were going to be hunting. He didn’t know what to expect but said that he was excited because the privet ranch to the east was pushing out the elk off their ranch land and elk were expected to go into our area. I think he knew that there was no elk but used that story of not knowing to justify the lack of elk (after all it is a fair chase hunt, as he claims). It was all a bunch of bull. For the kind of money we paid I expected to see elk, or be taken to an area where elk were. That’s what I’m paying him for! I have also come to understand that the area where were hunting was open to the public and was hunted very hard during the rut bow season. We found three old bow kill remains. I’m now thinking that the pressure kicked everything (that was there) out! I asked the guide when, in his opinion, is the best time to hunt in this area. He said the rut (end of Sept.) and the last week of the season (end of Nov.) when they're going to the wintering areas. Whatever,

When an outfitter sells you a hunt and he makes statements about success you base your opinion and your decision on that information. Unfortunately that didn't match reality. I had high expectations you bet! And so did all the other hunters in camp, who camp from everywhere in the US. Many had been on other elk hunts and they were pissed about this hunt. One gent from West Virginia said that on every hunt, whether successful of not, his past outfitters asked him what he thought about his experience, did he have fun, was he satisfied and what could the outfitter do the improve his service. This outfitter didn't even wish us a good by. Everyone just packed up and left. Yes I have had less that great guides before and hopefully it won't happen again (although I'm going to try really hard to not have it happen).

I had fun, rode horses every day and we did see some great scenery! I can't wait to go again, but not there and not at that time of year.

[ricochet]

Sorry guy,

Sadly, hunting/shooting is not hunting. I like to shoot, but I PREFER HUNTING.

iF YA take this wrong, I apologize. Shooting game here, or there may suck. If you want o shoot a 10/12 point buck here, is like shooting paper.

Compare my deer to yours. Nah.

[Palo]

I've found that most Elk's club's frown upon hunting when they are having meetings. :tongue:

[Batman]

Originally posted by limeyinaz

You did have the option of not using an outfitter I take it?


Well not really. I'm from Michigan, not Montana. I don't know shit about hunting for elk (but now I do!!) so I (we) figured a guided hunt would be best. I can see applying for a general non-resident tag and doing it on my own in the future. But I would like to "get my bull" first, see how it's really done, learn, learn more and then try it. I now know that Elk are hard buggers to get. Luck does have something to do with it no doubt. But that said I think you can stack the card in your favor.

One final thought on Ford Creek Ranch. The outfitter made the reference (at our booking time) that he leases 40k acres of area to hunt in. Now to me that sounds like we will be the only ones in this area (like a privet ranch). What the truth is, is that he is the only outfitter in the 40k area. However, John Q public can and did hunt in there extensively. I was surprised at how many other hunters (and camps) we came upon. That I didn't expect.

I do envy all you western folks. We saw so many huge mule deer, white tails and antelope that I was very impressed. To live there and be able to buy a tag over the counter is fantastic. Plus you can own and shoot full auto guns (I can't do that in MI). I was also impressed with all the big trout in such small streams!

I’ll post some pics of what I saw.

[splattermatic]

i can't remember all your threads before going, but, did you get reference's ?

if so did you call these people to see what they thought of the place ?

the draw app's start here in nm, in jan.. if ya wanna put in, let me know,,

the weather and moon did mess up alot of hunts from what i have heard..
where i shot mine, the locals said there should have been lots more elk down outta the high country by now, too warm..

[thunderchicken]

When my buddy guided high end Elk hunts, they guaranteed hunters a "reasonable shot on a legal bull" or their next year was free. I'd be as upset as Batman if I'd dropped that kind of coin for horseback riding and peanut butter sandwiches. I just got back from my Elk hunt- public land wilderness area, no horses or shriners driving those tiny ATV cars all over the damn place. Hard working packing in and out, but I awoke each morning to vast heards bugling from the ridge tops. Never saw another soul.

As an aside the main problem my buddy had guiding was getting hunters to the Elk. Alot of the middle-aged guys coming up from sea level just didn't have the chops to haul themselves up to 10,000 feet.

[the gman]

I think many folks are being a little hard on Batman. He (just like me) was/is a novice when it comes to Elk hunting. Ergo, he took the route of paying $6000 to a supposedly professional guide/outfitter to guide him to his Elk. He expected to learn many things, such as how to determine what fresh Elk tracks look like, where one could usually expect to find Elk, how to dress, quarter & skin Elk & generally have a good, HUNTING experience.

It is crystal clear that whilst some of those expectations were fulfilled, many were not & yes, the professional outfitter should take the blame. Why? Hell, he took Batman's money & failed to deliver even sight of an Elk. How many of you would accept that in a transaction in any other field?

Now, I know it's HUNTING folks, I said the same to Splat quite a few times whilst were were on our Elk hunt. We at least SAW mucho Elk sign & actual animals. I also had a couple of very fleeting chances to get on a bull but they didn't pan out. We saw a bunch of cows at various times, almost getting run over by one group (!):eek: & huge amounts of fresh sign.

Many of the Elk & other animals we saw were due entirely to Splat & I as told him, he had "eyes like a shithouse rat" :biggrin: . Game was abundant in our area, we just never got on a shootable bull.

I think that if Batman had had a similar experience, he would have been happy & marked it down as I did, as a valuable hunting & learning experience.

When you employ professionals, you expect them to have a certain level of competence, experience & access to resources. If they didn't find Elk in that particular area, you would (or at least I certainly would) expect to be transferred to another area that the outfitter had under contract where Elk could be expected. Or, if there were indeed hunting public land, transfer to another area of public land.

That didn't happen & it seems, from what we are told, that the outfitter was less interested in fullfilling the hunters expectations than he was in taking their money.

I think the most telling part of his story is that of 19 hunters only one actually shot an Elk. Piss poor results IMHO. The average results in CO on public land is 23%. That seems to be the norm for success on Elk on public land. With an outfitter, I would seriously expect it to be way higher, after all, THAT is what you are PAYING for.

I think Batman got an ass reaming, an expensive lesson & no doubt, resolved to do things differently the next time, YMMV.

As for spending $6k on a hunt? Well, I would, especially to Africa, we only live once & that kind of experience is beyond monetary terms, at least to me, again, YMMV.

Goodwill & thanks for the heads up on the outfitter.:bigangel:

[DYNOMIKE]

gman:
I was only making an observation as I mentioned Firstly?
Secondly I would "NEVER" Spend 6K To hunt "ANYTHING" on this Continent or any other for that matter!
Also when I posted, there was no mention of the $$ spent (that I saw?) only that it was an expensibe lesson. And I would say that is an understatement for sure.
I was not trying to give Batman a hard time only my spin?
In "HINDSIGHT" I would have issues with the results as well fer that kinda coin.

I see a post were the guide pays for next years hunt if he does not get you a reasonable chance at a shot and that to me seems like the guy I would want to give my $$ to, although I still think that is a huge amount of money and don't think I will be Elk hunting any time soon if that's what it takes to go?

Sorry for the hard time Batman, you need a group hug after that hunt, not some S.Fl boy bustin your balls..:wink: :whiskey:

[the gman]

Ah shucks Mike, wasn't bustin' yer balls, just pointing out that I thought Batman got a real raw deal & I thought some folks were missing the point is all.

As for the cash? Well, I guess we have different views on things. I have been very lucky in growing up in the UK where we don't have a tag system for ANY game animals. What we do have is that ALL the land is privately owned but with a little work & knowing the right folks, you can hunt for next to nothing & for as much as ya want too. (no bag limits AT ALL!:D )

I also benefitted from my time in the Army as lotsa military training areas are full of game & most of the officers like to shoot/hunt. But, in the new brave, equal opportunity world, they weren't allowed to keep all the hunting for themselves & had to allow the NCO's to play too or face losing their exclusive right to the hunting land.

Big bonus for me, I was the 'token' NCO that let them keep hunting so I got to do LOTS of driven grouse & pheasant shooting for peanuts a year compared to the big private hunts. We're talking me paying $400 a year (for food, buying the young pheasants to release, yadda, yadda) compared to $100 PER BIRD shot (for grouse) on a private shoot.:shades: :shades:

I also used to travel to Scotland for a couple of weeks to take part in Red Deer Hind (female) culls in the winter. We'd regularly shoot anything up to 35 deer in one day & all for free & get at least one animal for our trouble. Plus, I was a part time gamekeeper so I got a bunch of rabbit, pheasant, partridge & deer hunting every year fer nuthin' as a professional courtesy between other game keepers & what I got to shoot on my own place.:angel:

THAT is about the only thing I miss about the UK, well, & the food but hell, the US is a thousand times better overall.:bow:

I want to go to Africa to hunt & ya just can't do that for nothing, you can reduce the cost by taking part in the game management programme where you shoot cull animals rather than just trophies & I like that idea a lot. Makes me feel I'm adding a bit more in that I'm doing a job that needs to be done, rather than just turning up as the big white bwana to get the biggest heads possible. Not that there's anything wrong with that per se, it's just I'm not so bothered about that kinda thing, others may differ & more power to ya, be bloody boring if we were all the same!:rofl:

[juanni]

My experence of 10 years of serious archery Elk hunting in Montana.

Several times I have found a hot spot loaded with elk. Literally tripping over them. While hiking out at night anytime I broke a branch elk would bugle. Almost annoying.

A day or two later none. None period. They simply pack up and blow. Who knows how far. 20 miles is nothing to an elk. I have tracked fresh tracks from that morning all day long and never caught up.

Now whenever I stumble into that situation I work it non stop because I know tomorrow or the next day it is over.

And good luck finding them again.....juanni

[Para Driver]

You are correct. And I would never pay $6k for a hunt, not even to Africa.


Well,,,,, that is on the low end of the scale, having done it.. but you have to keep in mind that EVERYTHING has to be trucked in.. Food, fuel, staff, beverages, bedding, bricks and mortar, even the toilets... staff has to be paid, fuel is often a black market commodity and has to be trucked in from SA. The concession process and local 'fees' (bribes) are part of that expense as well.

having said all that, it's the best money I ever spent.. and would do it again in a heartbeat if I had the $$'s...

BTW, the hunts you see on the video from Mark Sullivan and the like are typically $1k to $2k per DAY, on 21 day minimums.. plus some trophy fees. So if you plan to shoot a Lion and Elephant in Tanzania next year, you'll need $30k-$50k to throw at that trip..

[DYNOMIKE]

BTW, the hunts you see on the video from Mark Sullivan and the like are typically $1k to $2k per DAY, on 21 day minimums.. plus some trophy fees. So if you plan to shoot a Lion and Elephant in Tanzania next year, you'll need $30k-$50k to throw at that trip..

Not me, even "IF" I had that kinda coin..
Leave them Lions alone. I think there koool!!

[Batman]

Originally posted by splattermatic
i can't remember all your threads before going, but, did you get reference's ?

if so did you call these people to see what they thought of the place ?

the draw app's start here in nm, in jan.. if ya wanna put in, let me know,,

the weather and moon did mess up alot of hunts from what i have heard..
where i shot mine, the locals said there should have been lots more elk down outta the high country by now, too warm..

Thanks for the offer splat but I've shot my hunting wad for this year. As for the references...Yes, we called several and all said very comforting assurances that a good time and fine hunt would be had. For the most part (90%) what they said was true.

[Batman]

Originally posted by DYNOMIKE69
gman:

I was not trying to give Batman a hard time only my spin?
In "HINDSIGHT" I would have issues with the results as well fer that kinda coin.

I see a post were the guide pays for next years hunt if he does not get you a reasonable chance at a shot and that to me seems like the guy I would want to give my $$ to, although I still think that is a huge amount of money and don't think I will be Elk hunting any time soon if that's what it takes to go?

Sorry for the hard time Batman, you need a group hug after that hunt, not some S.Fl boy bustin your balls..:wink: :whiskey:

No offence taken and I REALLY appreciate all the information you all are providing (even if it is critical). I know hindsight is 20/20 but the real shame is if one does not learn from it.

Next year is a different story. This winter I'll be spending more time learning and discovering what it takes to get my elk, and hopefully for a lot less money.

Now I offer this...

I went to northern Quebec, Canada for Caribou three years ago. Again a $5k hunt. That outfitter had many camps and flew us to the camp where the bou were to be found, or so he thought. Now on the first day we didn't see any bou so he packed us up and flew us to another spike camp and boy were we in the bou then. Fine trophies were all around. When you pay you expect the opportunity, that's all, just the opportunity.

As you can likely guess, I don't have a problem paying for what I get. I do have a problem paying and not getting what I'm supposed to get. In my business my clients pay me to know by business, get results and provide services expected. I strive to exceed their expectations and if I don't then I'm not worth a shit (in my mind). So far it has worked well for me in business. Too bad the outfitters don't have the same philosophy (I do like the idea of a fee hunt next year if you don't get a shot at a bull!).

.

[splattermatic]

nope mark , didn't cancel because of the cost...
still have the 10 day hunt paid for, i'm just hoping i don't get screwed out of it..
soon as we come to a meeting of minds, we'll hash out the date of the reschedule...

i'm still going to africa, just when is the question..

and batman, i'm talking for next year, this years hunts are over..

we are already planning which season to go, which camper or campers, new custom guns, ( i think gman and i are both going with 30-378's) ,blinds, and a lot of dreaming, and we just got back !!

come on 2006 get here and get almost over so we can do this again..

and shit house rat eye's, me got's.....i can spot game real well huh !!

[Andy the Aussie]

I heard just how soft you made George on that trip....I for one look forward to sleeping under the starts.....:p :p :p

[dredge]

Elk are getting scarce because there are thousands of wolves in Montana and Idaho .Here in North Idaho your just as likely to wolves howl as elk bugle. The elk are moving closer to towns to get away from the wolves. Save a hundred elk kill a wolf.But don't be like the local at Deary and try to sell the tail in the bar.

[the gman]

Well, I don't exactly know about there being "thousands" of wolves in MT & ID but we heard quite a few up in CO & there was definitely NO shortage of Elk, just a shortage of chances to get a shot at one.....:sad:

30-378? YOU so know it baby!!:rofl: :rofl: Dug in on that hillside with revetted sides, overhead cover & a range card, bring on the Elk & GET SOME!!:rofl: :rofl:

oops, had a bit of a combat flashback there, must remember to keep taking the tablets.... ;) :devil: