The great debate: .22 Centerfire rifle for deer

['TUDE]

Let's get some comments pro and con for .22 centerfire rifle cartidges used for deer.
What are the various rounds?
.222
.223
.223 wssm
.224
.220 swift
.22-250

I know there are more but...

So, what little I know is that with these cartridges when deer hunting, shot placement is even more critical, weather conditions play an important role, and some states don't even allow them for deer harvest.

What say ye?

Now, I do know many who hunt deer with these calibers for several reasons. One friend needed a lighter recoil due to a shoulder injury, another for a detatched retina condition. The story i hear most is that the smaller calibers offer a bit more of a challenge and that is something many look for over traditional bores.

Me, I think shot placement is critical no matter the cartridge. Using smaller calibers such as above is ethical IF the shooter is well versed in the limitations of the round and is confident in his shooting abilities.

[W.E.G.]

If it is "ethical" to shoot a deer with a mere bow and arrow, I don't see how it could be UN-ethical to shoot one with a high-powered .223 rifle. The nay-sayers just don't like seeing hunters walking around the woods with AR15's. Virginia forbids hunting with any cartridge smaller than .224. Hah! So, I got an AR15 rebarreled to 6mmx45 (.223 necked up to 6mm). :tongue:

[Windustsearch]

I believe they will work at close range. None of them are legal to hunt with where I live.

My Gpa put alot of deer on the table with a .22lr High Standard pistol, a long time ago.

[jaykden]

i've killed 11-12 deer with my target AR15 in the past 3 years, most head shots with some high neck shots, my dad used the rifle on a deer that was around 450 yrds and as the deer was walking away at an angle, shot for the head and the round went low, inside the body cavity and blew up the heart, ran 10 ft and dropped dead. mind you, these are small sitka blaktailed deer that weight 110-135lbs. if a guy takes his time, and the rifle is accurate, there is no problem when shooting right below the ear.

['TUDE]

Which brings on another question. Accuracy out to what distance?

Also, penetration properties? I wouldn't try a shot through the shoulder at 200 yards with a .22-250 but a straight on chest shot I would.

Jeter, have you been hunting and/or taken any deer with your AR mentioned? I'd like to learn more and especially yardages and penetration with that round. Sounds pretty decent.

Thanks folks. Keep the comments coming.

[xcpd69]

Originally posted by gary.jeter
If it is "ethical" to shoot a deer with a mere bow and arrow, I don't see how it could be UN-ethical to shoot one with a high-powered .223 rifle. The nay-sayers just don't like seeing hunters walking around the woods with AR15's. Virginia forbids hunting with any cartridge smaller than .224. Hah! So, I got an AR15 rebarreled to 6mmx45 (.223 necked up to 6mm). :tongue:

Uhhhh...

Last I knew the vast majority (maybe all) of modern 22 centerfire cartridge bullets ARE .224 diameter, regardless of the name of the cartridge.

It would be interesting to see the exact wording of the applicable statute.

Can you say "loophole?"

In Oklahoma, it's simple on guns.

Legal Means of Taking

Rifles: Centerfire rifles firing at least a 55-grain weight soft-nosed or hollow point bullet and having an overall cartridge case length of 1 1/4 inches or longer (9mm rifles are not legal). Clips or magazines of all .22 caliber centerfire firearms may not be capable of holding more than seven (7) rounds of ammunition.

Muzzleloaders: Equipment described as legal for deer muzzleloader season and blackpowder firearms loaded from the breech are legal.

Shotguns: 20 gauge or larger, firing a single rifled slug are legal.

Centerfire handguns: Chambered for .24 caliber or larger and 100 grain or heavier soft-nosed bullet having an overall cartridge case length of 1 1/4 inches or longer are legal (.357 or larger) and a minimum barrel length of four (4) inches.
Semi-automatic handguns: Chambered for any centerfire ammunition with a 100-grain or heavier soft-nosed bullet and having a cartridge case size of .40 caliber or larger (includes 10 mm, .357 Sig., and 40 cal. or larger) and a minimum barrel length of four (4) inches.

Handguns chambered for any centerfire rifle ammunition: Chambered for any centerfire rifle ammunition using at least a 55-grain soft-nosed bullet and having an overall cartridge case length of 1 1/4 inches or longer and a minimum barrel length of four (4) inches.

[Survey Punk]

Fellow here lets his small son hunt with an AR from a stand. Shots are all 100yds or less at mostly stationary animals. Load is a 77gr Sierra Matchking @ 2750fps. He says the bullet goes all to pieces and does a fine job.
Deer are rather small around here.

JB

[hedp]

Oklahoma just legalised .22 centerfires on deer a few years back. I don't use them, but if someone is willing to find a load with a medium game suitable bullet, and accept the limitations, i.e. shorter range, still animal, near perfect shot presentation/ placement, they are alright.
I imagine for every hunter that does this there's more who go to Wallyworld and buy any old softpoint load they can find even though the bullet is constructed more for coyotes and prairie dogs, and run a higher chance of wounding or crippling the game. Or someone trying to make a medium (or longer) range round out of what should be a short range proposition.

Xcpd, I may not know a lot but I know OK isn't simple on this crap. What is the deal with "more than seven rounds of .223 bad, but 20 rounds of 7.62 is okay." Least that's how I read the regs. And the "overall cartridge case length" used liberally thru the regs. To me, overall means more than one thing combined, and cartridge case means one specific thing:?I'm not sure where to measure for "overall cartridge case length." I was always ready to use that vagueness to defend my 10mm if I ever got questioned hunting with it, at least before this year when the handgun regs were made a bit more sensible.:D

[BlackCat]

I shot an armadillo at about 100 yards with a 22-250 and it looked like a freakin' bomb hit it.
Should work on damn near anything under 400 lbs with proper shot placement.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

Originally posted by hedp
"overall cartridge case length."




Shot placement is critical regardless of the caliber. 50BMG through the guts will kill a deer, but the question is when? If you cannot put the bullet exactly where it needs to be to make an INSTANT kill, then don't take the shot.

There are only two places on a deer where one can put a bullet and make a certain instant kill. The brain and upper spine. If you can't hit one of those two for certain, wait for a better angle or wait for another opportunity.

[owlcreekok]

I suppose I would rather use a .223 on Whitetail than throw sticks at them. BUT, my skill level is not high enough to depend on perfect shot placement in field conditions. While I have never shot a deer anywhere but in the head, I HAVE shouldered my .270 to try a 200 yd "heart-lung" shot. Had the deer not broke and ran, I truly believe it would have fallen to the 150 gr Nosler. There are those who could clip a deer's horns, an inch at a time with a mouse gun in .223. I ain't the one.

My $0.02, Jeff.

[steveo539]

I have taken many deer (200 pound range) with my 6 mm Rem using 100 gr. Sierra BT and have never had a problem with lack of penetration or bullet disintegration. I would think any cartridge that can deliver a projectile designed for game in that size range (80 gr +?) at a velocity of about 2400 FPS or better would dispatch a deer just fine. If anyone that has used a .223 or .222, will it penetrate the chest cavity & exit far side? A shoulder blade? I agree with Gary Jeter, if a bow is ok then why not a .223? Hmm lets see...I got this old Marlin Mod 27 in 25-20?????

[xcpd69]

Originally posted by hedp
Oklahoma just legalised .22 centerfires on deer a few years back. I don't use them, but if someone is willing to find a load with a medium game suitable bullet, and accept the limitations, i.e. shorter range, still animal, near perfect shot presentation/ placement, they are alright.
I imagine for every hunter that does this there's more who go to Wallyworld and buy any old softpoint load they can find even though the bullet is constructed more for coyotes and prairie dogs, and run a higher chance of wounding or crippling the game. Or someone trying to make a medium (or longer) range round out of what should be a short range proposition.

Xcpd, I may not know a lot but I know OK isn't simple on this crap. What is the deal with "more than seven rounds of .223 bad, but 20 rounds of 7.62 is okay." Least that's how I read the regs. And the "overall cartridge case length" used liberally thru the regs. To me, overall means more than one thing combined, and cartridge case means one specific thing:?I'm not sure where to measure for "overall cartridge case length." I was always ready to use that vagueness to defend my 10mm if I ever got questioned hunting with it, at least before this year when the handgun regs were made a bit more sensible.:D

The way I understand it, the seven rounds limitation was written to keep people from using 223s with 20-30 round mags. So, they placed a magazine capacity limit to match the most common deer rifle. The lever action 30-30.

Then someone pointed out that it would make illegal all the 44 magnum and 357 magnum rifles currently legal, as well as a few older ones, so they limited the mag restriction to 22 centerfires, leaving that gap you noted for using an FAL or M-14, etc...in 7.62 with a 20+ round mag. Or even an AK-47.

This is what happens when people ignorant about firearms, pass legislation.

As for the "overall cartridge case length, " that was initially designed to ensure the only pistols legal woul be the 357-41-44 magnums, and means the overall case length, or so I interpet it, since 1.25 inches is exactly the overall case length of a 44 magnum.

One thing interesting, IF I read the new regs correctly, is that while my S&W Model 25 in 45 acp is NOT legal for deer, either of my Colt Mk IVs in 45acp are since the 45acp is larger in case size that a 40 S&W.

In other words, 45acp legal in a semiauto, but not in a revolver or singleshot.

Again, ignorant people passing legislation.

[FortunateSon]

FALTITUDE, 22mag was the weapon of choice for poachers back in the mountains of NC where I grew up. I guess the deer out here in MT are quite a bit tougher as I have not had good luck with 223 on deer. I've shot 3 and none fell instantly. My conditions for trying were basically that I had to be prone and on a bipod where I'd feel comfortable going for a head shot. One deer bolted after a good head shot and it took me several hours to find him. He was laying down and still alive and suffering. A second head shot didn't go quite as far and was acting confused, running back and forth and it took me 10 minutes and 4 or 5 more shots to dispatch him. The last, the deer moved his head slightly as I pulled the trigger and it shattered his jaw. He ran off and I didn't find him. Saw him, amazingly enough, the following spring. His jaw was obviously deformed and drooping open, but he looked healthy otherwise. No explanation as to how he survived. All shots were between 75 - 150 yards and premium ammo with rifles that are sub-moa (rifles used will shoot 1/4 - 1/2 in groups at 100yds from prone position on bipod). I think the actual brain area that will kill instanly must be very small, because obviously just hitting the "head" doesn't do it. I know that killing a hog with a 22 at point blank range can be pretty exciting if you don't know the exact spot to hit. So, as good as the idea of "deer sniping" with my 223 sounded, for me it is not an option.

[hedp]

Originally posted by xcpd69




This is what happens when people ignorant about firearms, pass legislation.

As for the "overall cartridge case length, " that was initially designed to ensure the only pistols legal woul be the 357-41-44 magnums, and means the overall case length, or so I interpet it, since 1.25 inches is exactly the overall case length of a 44 magnum.



Pretty much the way I saw it as well. Only allow the mag revolver cartridges while not allowing shorter rounds that can make as much power (a hot 10 mil vs. a .357) Oh well, the old spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law and all. Doesn't really matter now anyhow. Least the revised regs do make more sense, but could use more tweaking.

[georgestrings]

FortunateSon - After culling deer on farms for a few years, I have come to the conclusion that taking head shots on deer is not such a good practice - they move their heads rapidly, and unpredictably, and there's just too many chances for things to go awry... Neck, off shoulder, or through the shoulders(depending on ammo choice) are all sure things on whitetails - I'd hate to be responsible for a deer starving to death from a head shot gone wrong - but that's just me...



- georgestrings

[fry]

in the state of Oregon .22 centerfire is allowed for Deer. in the state of Washington .25 or larger is allowed.

our federal government deems .223 acceptable for hunting humans. why do some states not recognize this cartridge acceptable for Deer.

although i have never taken a big game animal with anything but .308, i see nothing wrong with .22 centerfire cartidges.

i always wanted a 220 swift, but that is less than legal in Wa. state.

[Windustsearch]

Fry, I believe it is actually .24 minimum here. Lots of folks use .243s and .240 rem.s, 6mm etc.

[fry]

Originally posted by Windustsearch
Fry, I believe it is actually .24 minimum here. Lots of folks use .243s and .240 rem.s, 6mm etc.

sorry, im wrong, your right,..."i drink" ugg!

6mm Rem:bow:

[CactusCapt]

I have swatted numerous Texas Hill Country deer with a .223 over the years and never had any problems--but I choose my shots. Also, these deer are usually meat does or small spikes. I use 55 gr SP bullets or Nosler Ballistic Tips and have had minimal meat loss on other than head shots. I have also swatted with a .221 Fireball out of an XP-100 and a Kimber 84 with the same results. I would not use a .22 centerfire on a South Texas trophy buck, however... That's a larger animal.

[Plain George]

Yeah poachers and 22 cal yada yada yada.
All 22 cal bullets are TOO light to be really effective on a large deer.
Granted he may die, but you wont be the one finding him.
My question is WHY hunt big game with a 22 cal.?
I for one do not want any animal to suffer.

[Plain George]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fry

our federal government deems .223 acceptable for hunting humans. why do some states not recognize this cartridge acceptable for Deer.
QUOTE]

The object is to WOUND the enemy. It takes 4 others (or more) out of the action to care for the wonded person.
Wounding deer is not the thing to do.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by Faltitude
Jeter, have you been hunting and/or taken any deer with your AR mentioned? I'd like to learn more and especially yardages and penetration with that round. Sounds pretty decent.


That rifle has killed just one deer. My nephew shot a doe with it at about 40 yards. Neck shot, straight on from an elevated position while the doe was looking right at the shooter. Entered front of neck and disappeared into the body. Sierra 85 grain GameKing bullet. Deer dropped like somebody pulled the plug. No chase whatsoever. Just fell over. We never found the bullet or an exit wound during field dressing. We paid the local butcher shop to skin it out and package the meat.

The prolem with the .223 necked-up to 6mm in an AR15 is the fact that the 6mm-sized necks of the cartridges create extra friction in the GI mag. After you get about 5 or 6 rounds in the mag, the friction sometimes causes FTF.

[W.E.G.]

Originally posted by xcpd69


Uhhhh...

Last I knew the vast majority (maybe all) of modern 22 centerfire cartridge bullets ARE .224 diameter, regardless of the name of the cartridge.

My bad.

I mis-spoke.

VA law says ".23 caliber or larger."

[xcpd69]

OK, try this one out.

Who do you think is more likely to wound a deer and lose it, rather than make a clean kill?

The guy who practices regulary, and shoots several hundred or thousand rounds of 223 a year, or the nimrod that takes his "trusty thuty-thuty" out of the closet once a year to go deer hunting?

It ain't the rifle that's the weak part in the equation, but the man.

Rifle + Man does NOT necessarily = Rifleman.

[Stranger]

Originally posted by xcpd69
OK, try this one out.

Who do you think is more likely to wound a deer and lose it, rather than make a clean kill?

The guy who practices regulary, and shoots several hundred or thousand rounds of 223 a year, or the nimrod that takes his "trusty thuty-thuty" out of the closet once a year to go deer hunting?

It ain't the rifle that's the weak part in the equation, but the man.

Rifle + Man does NOT necessarily = Rifleman.

Amen.

[fry]

Originally posted by Plain George
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fry

our federal government deems .223 acceptable for hunting humans. why do some states not recognize this cartridge acceptable for Deer.
QUOTE]

The object is to WOUND the enemy. It takes 4 others (or more) out of the action to care for the wonded person.
Wounding deer is not the thing to do.

huh? i never thought of that.

[Plain George]

Originally posted by xcpd69
OK, try this one out.

Who do you think is more likely to wound a deer and lose it, rather than make a clean kill?

The guy who practices regulary, and shoots several hundred or thousand rounds of 223 a year, or the nimrod that takes his "trusty thuty-thuty" out of the closet once a year to go deer hunting?

It ain't the rifle that's the weak part in the equation, but the man.

Rifle + Man does NOT necessarily = Rifleman.

Not true totally,,, no matter how much you practice, even if you hit em in the right spot, you will never kill a deer with a sling shot....

[Plain George]

FRY.....huh?,.... I guess you were never in the military then eh??
or you should know that bit of advice.

[fry]

its called sarcasm. some people think im a smart ass, i just think im smart. dont make me take you fishing.