Combat load?? [Archive] - The FAL Files

gunplumber

October 05, 2005, 09:55

There are too many variables for one pat answer. Deliberate ops require a different combat load than say an observation/intelligence role. Personally, I think 7 mags is minimum for the AR (210 rounds) and when I was a ninja warrior, I carried 13 mags. Part of the amount is based on your method of carrying. Using the old 3 mag ammo pouches, there is no reason to have a 3 mag pouch with less than three mags, and if you have three mags on one side and none on the other its unbalanced. so either 2x 3 mag pouches, or 4x 3 mag pouches, with one in the gun. If you are using a chest pouch, adjust accordingly. I have mixed feelings with a chest pouch. Its convenient, and easier in some positions but the straps chaffe more.

As to the fal, I carry 4 x 2 mag pouches and one in the gun for a total of 9.

But pack with one ration, poncho. duct tape, para cord, roll of wire, and all the other little odds and ends you can't be without. knife. compass, battle dressing, miniflashlight. 2 x canteens with one canteen cup.

Some people want a sidearm. Ok. in 14 years in the military, I never carried both an individual weapon and a sidearm and never felt undergunned. The only time I carried a .45 was when assigned a crew-served weapon like the M60, even when it was treated as an individual weapon.

With mags cheap and relatively light weight, I see no purpose in stripper clips and bandoleers. I have all my magazines loaded at all times. Loaded mags do not wear out quality springs.

10 fal mags fit nice in a .30 cal ammo can. So why have 10 mags and 200 rounds when you can have them loaded and in the can. - stores better than a cardboard box.

My quandry is the alice vest and my inability to choose between my FAL and AR> Makes ammo carriers tough. Right now I am going with the AR as my quick reaction, therefore the mags are ina chest pouch with the rifle. My FAL is the planned operations weapon and therefore my alice gear is set up for fal mags.

FAL with ALICE and M14 mag pouches.
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/tmgpic06.jpg

and with chest pouch
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/tmgfal14.jpg

Farmer from Hell

October 05, 2005, 10:41

Well since the only reason I can imagine, for me any way, to be trapesing around with an EBR would be to keep an eye on the hood in the absense of LE Im going with a chest rig. Im not going on any long range patrol just around the block so to speak. It would also be easy getting in and out of a 'hicle if you need to. Load up with some mags, small radio, small first aid kit, and a candy bar and your good to go.

I have one of these in OD that I bought a while ago from Major Surplus. I gave a review on the board here with pics in the review section I think.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/product_images/1277/VEST-135.jpg

It aint bad for the money. It certainly isnt uber mil spec tough but Id venture to say it would survive the walk around the block.

FfH

edit:See here (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81585&highlight=chest) links for pics dont work but the rest is there.

doktor_ecchs

October 05, 2005, 12:54

Originally posted by gunplumber
10 fal mags fit nice in a .30 cal ammo can. So why have 10 mags and 200 rounds when you can have them loaded and in the can. - stores better than a cardboard box

(Start Guinness Guys voice...) "BRILLIANT!!!" (resume Dr. X voice...) I'd never thought of that. Guess I'll be picking one up this weekend. That'll free up space in my geetchy-bag...BTW: The horse in the 2nd photo is one beautiful animal...(I don't know about the guy standing next to it...animal? Probably. Beautiful? Defintely not...:rofl: ) The chest pouch is rather photogenic though...

as ever,
Dr. X :fal:

gunplumber

October 05, 2005, 13:18

My daughter took a long string of pictures a few years ago for my business cards. Does this chest pouch make me look fat? Well, in siluette, yes it does. So I switched from the chestpouch to the alice. Which doesn't wear well on horseback, especially the way I wear it slung low to clear my rucksack. And the horse just didn't fit well with the with the text.

So posing against my garage wall, and a little cut and paste . .. .

and this picture

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/bcfal03.jpg

became this graphic

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/businesscard.jpg

J. Armstrong

October 05, 2005, 14:41

I most certainly respect and appreciate tis info from those who have "been there, done that " - thanks, guys !
Seems to me if one feels the need to have a bando of ammo on clips, you ought to make a point of having at least one charger as well - the s clips ain't much use without it ?
Aluminum para mags weigh about half what the steel ones go, but I often wonder about the durability. Normally I only use steel ones to avoid wearing the feed lips of my few paras, but there's also the "scratch and dent" factor. Any thoughts ?

gunplumber

October 05, 2005, 15:04

Originally posted by J. Armstrong
Aluminum para mags weigh about half what the steel ones go, but I often wonder about the durability. Normally I only use steel ones to avoid wearing the feed lips of my few paras, but there's also the "scratch and dent" factor. Any thoughts ?

I've been using exclusively aluminum mags for almost 15 years. I started with 80 - 8 cans of 10. Went through over a 50 thousand rounds and then sold half of them after Y2K. I now use 40 mags for the range, and have gone through another 20-30K rounds if not more.

Damage - 2 mags with the tabs for the bolt hold opens broken off. Possibly due to a defective bolt hold open device.

I have not had a single failure on the magazines.

the aluminum doesn't bend well - it either cracks or it does't. The steel mags seem to me to dent easier and the weight is significant. (2# difference on 10 mags.)

So I will always use aluminum mags.

BlackCat

October 05, 2005, 17:59

Take a look at the Russian Gunner's aprons. It holds 8 AK/FAL mags with pockets for sundries and a knife, and is just the ticket for the tinfoiler on the go. It has a plate pocket, too if you're into that sorta thing.
I got mine for $50, and while it's not as nice as pricier ninja-rigs I've bought over the years from Arktis and eagle, it's well worth the money and up to the task. The body is nylon with plasticized interiors with LOUD velcro on the pouches, but it's secure as all hell. The shoulder straps are wide and sturdy with oldschool "slip-in" stype plastic buckles, no fastex here, mister.
Overall, I give it a 6 out of 10, with kudos for its spartan design, light weight, and value.
I think www.redsoldier.com still has them. If not, Tantal (whatever his real name is in Texas) is well known about the community for having all kinds of Russian gear at good prices and his customer service is top notch.

Sword of Laban

October 05, 2005, 18:21

mosbysmen I run 3.3 miles or hills most mornings with a full LBV 8 FAL mags, pistol and two spare pistol mags, water etc., and a three day patrol pack with 200 rounds and various sundry items in it total weight around 75 lbs. Its a work out. Funny thing is I live in the suburbs just outside of Portland Oregon and no one seems to take any notice at all other than to ask how much weight I'm packing in my rig.

8 + 1 works for me but I did do it a few times with 18 mags, two SAW pouches with 5 each, 4 30 round mags in my double - double pouch and 4 more 20 rounders in a double and a double single. Made me feel my oats. I would have to have a FA to make it worth doing on a regular basis. But then I'm a lumberjack and I'm okay...

http://www.enivaway.com/test/sword/ruckvest1.jpg

TheOtherChris

October 05, 2005, 18:59

Originally posted by mr fixit
Not sure what to call it maybe combat load fits, maybe not. The question is this;
in making preps for 'whatever', what would be the "must have minimum" of stuff per weapon.

I guess the senario I'm wondering about would be something where you are carrying what you 'need'. Maybe your scouting around your home/base and can go back for more, but have only what's on your back for immediate use.

IMHO, you really need to know what might happen before you can answer your question.

Example: You live or work in an urban area and want to have what you'd need to get home. In this case I would carry (in the trunk) the type of combat loads described above.

But, you live or work in a very rural area where you're unlikely to encounter the dreaded Spikey Haired, Cannibalistic, Welfare Mutants so you don't need much more than a 22lr pistol and take down rifle with a couple boxes of shells.

Remember, your objective is just to get to your home/hide/bunker/compound and undetected is best. You don't need to secure an objective.

If you encounter an unavoidable conflict in this country that requires the expenditure of more than 100 rounds of ammo, you're probably not going to make it anyway.

Just my opinion and it is worth exactly what I charged for it.:wink:

mr fixit

October 05, 2005, 19:21

Great responses!
Let me clarify now that i've had time to think about it too....

Right now, life is good (for the most part). we have jobs, we can go to the store and buy just about anything we want. We have electricity and city water just waiting to be used. We can buy trinkets and faubles. Now is the time to think about when things go bad.

let's speak hypothetically; Say I wanted to buy an FAL, or an Ar or an M1a, or even SKS. Those are all decent weapons, some better than others for some things, but all 'useable'. But buying a weapon alone really has not improved my situation in regard to preparing for "bad times". So, in order to have a useable weapon, I would also need ammo, mags/strippers, and something to carry it all in/on.

So, before I spend money an a second weapon, it would make sense to buy all the accutrements I need for the first. Then if the SHTF, I have a useable weapon system.

Along those lines, not knowing what might happen, what would you have on hand, just in case, to use your self, and to possibly pass out to family/close friends. And realize that 100 mags and 20K of ammo per weapon is out.
What would be the minimum equipment load you must have before spending money on an additional weapon?

Ronin556

October 05, 2005, 19:38

Remember, your objective is just to get to your home/hide/bunker/compound and undetected is best. You don't need to secure an objective.

Can you say that with absolute 100% certainty?

How do you know you won't be ambushed for your supplies?
Roadblocked?
Bushwhacked at your home/hide/bunker/compound?

There are FAR to many variables to rely on a breakdown rifle and a .22 caliber pistol. A centerfire rifle of common military caliber (5.56, 5.45, 7.62S, 7.62N, etc) and a pistol of service caliber is the very minimum to show that you actually take your life seriously.

One can move "undetected" and still be attacked - especially depending on the duration of time spent riding "Shank's Mare". It's more a matter of population and desperation than one's skill in getting from A to B without being noticed by Grandma Ethel.
Detected is when a dog barks. Worry about staying alive, because you WILL be detected.

FREE RIFLEMAN

October 05, 2005, 22:01

I basically set up senario bags...

All of them include either a chest rig for smaller problems or a full out patrol setup for bigger problems with full combat loads.

It works like this:

Going on a long daytrip.... grab one scenario bag

Friend needs help patroling property along Mexican Border... grab two

A couple of scenarios that are worse... grab three or four

A looming mushroom cloud over Phoenix... grab all the bags, three footlockers, and empty the safe!

Then... there's a trailer... but that's for a different thread... lol!

October 05, 2005, 22:48

>>>>Since I've changed to a plate carrier from an LBV, I've been forced to reduce my overall load to:
10+1 for the M4 (330 rounds+20 tracers)
6+1 for the FAL (140 rounds)
6+1 for the AK (210 rounds)<<<<<<

damn dude......you hump all that shit AND 3 long guns?...you da man! I`d need a friggin humvee to carry all that.

I keep an AMT Hardballer w/3 mags full of Golden Sabre, and a CAR-15A1 w/4 30rd mags of USGI 55gr ball in the Jeep along with the GMHB. Spent all my service time with these type weapons and it`s what I feel comfortable with. The FALs are in the vault at home, where I plan to return to. `Bout 15-20mi is all I expect to have to go if SHTF. I live in a relatively rural part of the country, and about all I have to worry about are hordes of 60-90yr old retired yankees trying to steal my stash
:rofl:

AGC

October 06, 2005, 07:29

Originally posted by mr fixit
Great responses!
Let me clarify now that i've had time to think about it too....

(Snip...)

What would be the minimum equipment load you must have before spending money on an additional weapon?

I try to do things in a methodical way, and prioritize in terms of expense and "potential legal complications."

Currently, full-capacity magazines are easy to obtain for the weapons that have been mentioned here, and prices are good for most of them. Never been better, for some.

They're also, after 10 years of lame BS, once again unrestricted at the Federal level. So even if you live in an unfree state, they can be obtained one way or another. But there is a chance---not a great one at this time, but that could change after the next election---that there will be another stupid law passed that will prohibit their purchase.

So buying "enough" magazines now seems a wise idea.

How many is "enough"? I would say at least a "basic load" worth for each rifle, to be placed in storage after function testing, plus a few for range/training use.

For an AR, that means 7 for a "basic load" (1 in the rifle, 6 in two 3-magazine pouches or a chest carrier) plus another 3 or 4 for range use. Say 12, just to be sure. Used magazines can be had cheaply, but there's a good chance they've been beat on by some 19 year old soldier who didn't care too much about what happened to them. OK for range use, but for the "basic load" I would start with new-in-wrapper US GI magazines. They can be found for around $10 these days.

For an FAL or HK91 I would consider 9 to be a "basic load" (1 in rifle, 8 in four 2-magazine pouches) plus the 3 or 4 for range use. Gunplumber's ammo can idea is a good one; I'm partial to the HK91 and 8 of its magazines will fit in the same can. With an FAL this is about ideal: pack a can with 9 magazines and a small cleaning kit. So, again, about a dozen magazines as the minimum. New-in-wrapper magazines can be found for these rifles for between $5-$10; used ones for as little as $2.

Ammunition is the next critical issue. There isn't an organized effort to ban it, at least not to the extent that there is to ban "assault weapons" and magzines, but it faces at least some threat of restriction and bans. Restrictions on imports of surplus or military-style ammunition are only an Executive Order away. Without ammunition your rifle is useless, so you need at least some on hand.

At minimum, you want at least enough for your "basic load." I would recommend at least a case, per rifle, as your "war reserve," and if at all possible more.. Buying in bulk is the only way to go, and it can't be just a coincidence that there's usually a better price when you buy a 1000 round case... Plus many countries' surplus ammunition is packed for long-term storage, in sealed cans, soldered tins or PVC bags. The problem is finding good quality ammunition, that has been properly stored, at a reasonable price.

What's available changes rapidly. A few years ago Portuguese 7.62mm NATO could be found for under $125/1k delivered; then there was Australian at a good price, and it seems to have dried up... And then there's crap like the Indian stuff, to be avoided at any price. Similar issues with 5.56mm. And there's always domestic GI-like ball, usually at a much higher price, but newer and of a known quality.

Ammunition deals come and go quickly, so the best plan is to be an educated consumer and have enough funds on hand to jump if something good comes along. Watch the sales flyers and websites for the big dealers to see what's available, keep an eye on the ammunition board here and on other sites to see how good the stuff actually is, and when good ammunition at a good price appears, don't want too long before buying as much as you can. There's always a way to get rid of it, after all.

Then there's all the little bits and pieces... Mostly cheap enough that there's no real need to put off purchase, but well enough off the radar that you don't need to worry about bans anytime soon. I would suggest, as the minimum for each rifle, a sling, cleaning kit and muzzle cap.

The sling doesn't need to be an uber-tactical one, just a simple strap ($3 US GI black nylon "silent sling" will do) to keep the rifle in place if you need to use both hands for something. You can always upgrade to a 3-point or such if you feel the need.

For the cleaning kit, some folks like the ones made by Otis with a flexible "rod," others prefer to use GI take-down rods. I would recommend, in either case, that you have both an "at-home" and a "field" cleaning kit: the "at-home" kit is the one you use routinely, with a good commercial one-piece rod to prevent bore damage, and the "field" kit with _new_ rod, _new_ bore and chamber brushes, _new_ cleaning toothbrush and so forth, with a _full_ bottle of oil, jar of grease, etc, package of patches, etc, all inspected and then packed away with the "basic load" magazines and ammunition, so you're not tempted to rob it when the "at-home" supplies run low.

A $0.25 plastic muzzle cap (the US GI one will fit most rifles that have the NATO standard 22mm flash suppressor/grenade launcher) is a very good idea. When you're soaking wet, scared and sleep-deprived, stumbling around in the dark, it is very easy to end up with a muzzle packed full of mud. Not good even if you notice it in time. Stow the cap in the can with the "basic load" and cleaning kit.

turbomark7

October 06, 2005, 08:45

Basic load for AR15 = three bandoliers x 140 rds. = 420 rds. + six 30 rd. mags or 12 20 rd. mags (in mag pouches) and canteens and three MREs, poncho, hammock, and mosquito netting, and Glock 19 (two 15 rd. mags and two 30 rd. mags).

I have four FALs, M1A, and SR25, and won't consider the .308; it's the CAR15 when it's time to grab 'n go.

rcnpthfndr

October 06, 2005, 09:29

the last couple of years in iraq, i wear a MAV1, i have 5 pouches (3 mags ea) and a pistol holster on the MAV1. +1 mag in the M4. you cant always make it back to where you have your stash in a timely manner. i also had a bigger camelback system which held vs-17 panels, strobes, frags, flashbangs, otis cleaning kit, knife/multi-tool, snacks, a tube with, front sight post, firing pin, asst springs and FCG.

TheOtherChris

October 06, 2005, 09:42

Originally posted by Ronin556

Can you say that with absolute 100% certainty?

Of course not.
That was just one scenario. Each person has to determine which threats they're likely to encounter and plan accordingly.
Most of us can't always be equipped for all threats; you can't carry that much gear around without getting pulled over.

Now he has clarified (somewhat) his primary need which is very different that the question I thought I was responding to.

TheOtherChris

October 06, 2005, 09:50

Originally posted by mr fixit
Great responses!
Let me clarify now that i've had time to think about it too....

Say I wanted to buy an FAL, or an Ar or an M1a, or even SKS. Those are all decent weapons, some better than others for some things, but all 'useable'. But buying a weapon alone really has not improved my situation in regard to preparing for "bad times". So, in order to have a useable weapon, I would also need ammo, mags/strippers, and something to carry it all in/on.

So, before I spend money an a second weapon, it would make sense to buy all the accutrements I need for the first. What would be the minimum equipment load you must have before spending money on an additional weapon?

Again, IMHO, this comes down to your situation.
For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds.

This doesn't mean I stop there. It's just what I like to have as a minimum per platform.

gunplumber

October 06, 2005, 10:57

I have a number of cheap surplus "fun" guns - SKS, Nagant, K98, etc.

Afdter reading this thread, I have decided to make a SHTF pack for each gun in my collection. Probably 100 rounds of ammo, sling, pull through cleaner. That way they can be handed out to neighbors. I already have the stuff, its just a matter of grouping them with each gun .

While grandpa with a K98 may not be too macho . . .. .

Well it reminds me of a story. A friend's father was under his car doing some sort of repair on a lonely country road when a truckload of hoodlums started to threaten him.

He pulled out a ruger Mk 1 and advised them to leave.

One commented that it was "just a twenty-two"

"Yep", he replied," its just a twenty two"

The hoodlums left.

I keep a .22 for survival hunting. Shooting a rabit with a .308 doens't leave much to eat.

Ronin556

October 06, 2005, 11:13

>>>>Since I've changed to a plate carrier from an LBV, I've been forced to reduce my overall load to:
10+1 for the M4 (330 rounds+20 tracers)
6+1 for the FAL (140 rounds)
6+1 for the AK (210 rounds)<<<<<<

damn dude......you hump all that shit AND 3 long guns?...you da man! I`d need a friggin humvee to carry all that.

HELLLLLLL NO!
For Christsake, you'd literally have to be a human wheelbarrow. Or not going very far ;)

That's EACH SETUP!
IE, if I'm carrying my FAL, I'll carry 6+1, or if I'm carrying my M4, I'll take 10+1.
The only "second" gun I carry is my 1911.

Sorry I didn't clarify that so well.

mr fixit

October 06, 2005, 11:50

Originally posted by gunplumber

Afdter reading this thread, I have decided to make a SHTF pack for each gun in my collection. Probably 100 rounds of ammo, sling, pull through cleaner. That way they can be handed out to neighbors. I already have the stuff, its just a matter of grouping them with each gun .

This is really getting close to what I'm talking about.

And now that I think more, What would be the different needs for your primary/personal weapon, versus those you have to hand out to family/friends?

The Other Chris
[B]Again, IMHO, this comes down to your situation. For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds. [B]

So if you have 5 FALs, you want/have 50 mags, and 5k of ammo?

Temp

October 06, 2005, 12:24

gunplumber

October 06, 2005, 12:35

Originally posted by Temp
Why would you want to arm those who lack the forethought to arm themselves?

good question and one that I have considered.

Its motivated by self-interest.

I simply cannot keep watch for 24/7.

So I am better off arming my neighbors for community defense? Or trying to stay on guard 24/7 myself?

Or might my neighbors decide that the rifle I gave them is a means of accessing my food supply?

fortunately, my neighbors are probably well enough armed already, although mostly handguns and shotguns.

We are already tied together (the 8 families) by a shared well and electric supply.

One mother was a former Airforce Security police. The other retired airforce.

Another I've never seen without a 1911 on his hip.

The other aformer cop.

And another is absentee (winter home)

Another a former rancher and hunter (small game)

and the other a Morman with an AR and a FAL.

Its a fine line.

Heck, with two full auto RPDs and two full auto 1919s, we can guard the neigborthood. But just because the lady was trained with an M16 and 1911 doesn't mean she owns one.

Farmer from Hell

October 06, 2005, 12:47

Originally posted by Temp

Why would you want to arm those who lack the forethought to arm themselves?

The gene pool has been corrupted enough. Allow natural selection to takes it's course.

While I see your point I have good neighbors with military backgrounds who (I assume as they have never expressed a big interest in firearms to me even though they know Im a gun guy) havent prepared to the extent that some of us have to deal with situations like we've been throwing around here.

These folks are good people and we look after each others stuff when someone goes out of town etc. I cant realy bring myself to shove them out of the life boat per say just because they didnt invest in a hobby such as ours and have the foresight to get into the mindset of planning for the worst of times.

That being said having a hand-off kit/bag to go with some of my replaceable $100 C&R guns might not be a bad idea. Might be a good use of some 30 cal ammo cans.

FfH

Temp

October 06, 2005, 13:12

The street that I live on is pretty much a liberal enclave.

Being one of the few old country boys who inhabit the place, I was approached by a neighbor to help her with a pigeon problem.,... which was no problem. I got out my $30 Chinese pellet rifle and made short work of a few dozen of them.

One day while doing my little urban hunting routine, one of my neighbors walked by,... a middle aged man. He asks, "That a pellet gun?",.. I say, "Yeah,... trying to get rid of a few of these nasty pigeons.",.. Then I ask, "You been shooting them also?"

He keeps walking,.. says, "No,... no need for a gun at my house."

I just smiled and asked, "What you charge for a look in your crystal ball?"

The stupid asshole ain't gettin' nuthin' from me,... not even a baseball bat.

doktor_ecchs

October 06, 2005, 16:38

Originally posted by TheOtherChris

For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds.

This doesn't mean I stop there. It's just what I like to have as a minimum per platform.

That is the same gameplan I have...I'm WAY short on .308, chipping away week by week. :rolleyes:

as ever,
Dr. X :fal:

TheOtherChris

October 06, 2005, 17:30

Originally posted by TheOtherChris

For me, I like to have 10 mags for each long gun I own (except 22lr for which I think 4x25 is sufficient) and 1k of ammo before I buy the next gun.
For handguns I like 3 mags and 500 rounds.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mr fixit

So if you have 5 FALs, you want/have 50 mags, and 5k of ammo?

Multiple examples of the same firearm is different for me.
The first gets 10 mags. Subsequent rifles only get 5 each.

As for ammo, I like to have at least a 1000 rounds of each rifle caliber that I own. Not 1000 for each rifle. If I have 2 FALs, 2 CETMEs and a 308 bolt gun, I like to have at least 1000 rounds of 308.

My 'per rifle' requirements are very arbitrary and just what I like to have for what I collect.
A TEOTWAKI situation is very different and I would want a standardized platform for all team members.

gunplumber

October 07, 2005, 10:15

Originally posted by BlackCat
Take a look at the Russian Gunner's aprons. I .. . .I think www.redsoldier.com still has them. If not, Tantal (whatever his real name is in Texas) is well known about the community for having all kinds of Russian gear at good prices and his customer service is top notch.

Just saw this on sturm. Is it the same guy?

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/general.cgi?read=39862

doktor_ecchs

October 10, 2005, 16:39

Hey, Mark

I bought a .30 cal. ammo can at the Charlotte funshow this weekend for 3 bucks. It is the perfect fit for 10 mags. It even has the correct # of rounds stenciled on the side. Thanks for the tip! :bow:

as ever,
Dr. X :fal:

gunplumber

October 10, 2005, 17:23

since the tenth mag is sometimes a tight squeeze, I use a thin piece of nylon webbing around the tenth mag to make a "handle" for pulling it out.

For range mags, I put the empties in upside down.

It also makes it easy to see if the mags are full as you can depress them one after the other while still in the can (and even top them off while still in the can.

For my GoToWar mags, I can only fit 9 because I have para cord taped on the bases (and yes, I tried mag-pulls and went back to the old fashioned way)

doktor_ecchs

October 11, 2005, 06:30

Originally posted by gunplumber
since the tenth mag is sometimes a tight squeeze, I use a thin piece of nylon webbing around the tenth mag to make a "handle" for pulling it out.

For my GoToWar mags, I can only fit 9 because I have para cord taped on the bases (and yes, I tried mag-pulls and went back to the old fashioned way)

Another good tip I didin't know...:uhoh: What is the purpose of para cord taped on the bases? Where exactly does it go? Does it help with magazine extraction?Please enlighten! :confused:

As ever,
Dr. X :fal:

Farmer from Hell

October 11, 2005, 08:00

Originally posted by doktor_ecchs

Another good tip I didin't know...:uhoh: What is the purpose of para cord taped on the bases? Where exactly does it go? Does it help with magazine extraction?Please enlighten! :confused:

As ever,
Dr. X :fal:

Poormans/grunts mag pull. Para cord looped in line with the mag over the bottom held in place on the sides by 100 mph tape.

You can take a plastic zip tie, cut off the ends/to size, and slide it inside of the para cord hollow center to make it stand up so to speak so its easier to grab.

FfH

gunplumber

October 11, 2005, 08:13

it aids in extraction from the mag pouch.

Thanks for the zip tie idea -= that was a new one for me!

Its not just a poor man's Mag Pul, I think its superior. (anyone want to buy a box of mag pulls?) run the para cord in a loop upward on the mag and a layer of 1/2 thickness tape to hold it, then double the loop back down and retain with another layer of tape.

You can catch the empty mag on your pinkey when you eject it, while holding a fresh one in your hand.

You can snap the empties onto a carabiner - putting empties back into a mag pouch can sometimes result in an embarrassing withrawal of an empty mag.

Farmer from Hell

October 11, 2005, 09:04

The taped portion of the "poormans mag pull" is also a convienent place to number your mags with a sharpie for identification. If you have a potential mag related failure you want to be able to weed it out and investigate the problem later.

They all start to look alike when you get home and look in your bag and try to find the one that gave you trouble.

FfH

Ronin556

October 11, 2005, 12:35

You can catch the empty mag on your pinkey when you eject it, while holding a fresh one in your hand.

You can snap the empties onto a carabiner - putting empties back into a mag pouch can sometimes result in an embarrassing withrawal of an empty mag.

A better solution is a magazine dump pouch.

Have you ever tried the carabiner method while trying to MSC (Manuever, shot communicate)?

You're going to be rattling and banging and have magazines flopping all over gods creation.
If that was mainly a problem with empty magazines, try it after performing a tactical reload - when you're magazine is partially full.

Those mags are going to be smackin' your nuts, and the result is pain.
It's a hell of a lot better investment to get a dump pouch, and work to and from that.

It can and does also double as a "catch all" when you're not actually battling undead hordes of mutant bikers from mars.

Not sure if anyone cares, but I've also found that you get a better and more "positive" grip from mag pulls made from tubes, as seen below:
(Thanks to "the Combat Triad" for the picture)
http://www.americanminuteman.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10012/Orlite%20MagPul%20SMALL.jpg

The "loop on the pinky" method is fine when you're training in Fort Livingroom, but when you've got gloves on, and things are hectic, it can be pretty beneficial to not have to worry about snagging your finger on the loop. This design also makes it easier to extract your magazines from their pouches - in my opinion.

This is all very subjective, and opinion heavy - so use what works for you.
Just some thoughts.

gunplumber

October 11, 2005, 13:22

A better solution is a magazine dump pouch.

Sure - if you are traveling so lightly that you have room for an empty pouch. Rarely did I exit a C130 with less than 85 pounds of weapons and equipment, plus parachute harness and reserve.

Have you ever tried the carabiner method while trying to MSC (Manuever, shot communicate)?

Yes, in fact I have. 14 years in the Army, much of it in special operations.

You're going to be rattling and banging and have magazines flopping all over gods creation..

On need not practice noise and light discipline after the first round goes down range.

Cargo pockets work too, if they aren't full of equipment. I've also tucked them inside my jacket, but thats hard to do when wearing Ranger Body Armor.

Those mags are going to be smackin' your nuts, and the result is pain.

I suppose you could find a place to put a carabiner where that would happen, but its not a place I would choose.

This isn't something you wear as a new fashion style - its a temporary measure because mags are not expendable items.

The "loop on the pinky" method is fine when you're training in Fort Livingroom, but when you've got gloves on, and things are hectic, it can be pretty beneficial to not have to worry about snagging your finger on the loop. This design also makes it easier to extract your magazines from their pouches - in my opinion.

While you are entitled to your opinion, if I recall correctly from your last post, you havn't begun your airforce training yet. While I respect a variety of techniques, I have more respect for opinions from others who actually HAVE used the techniques in infantry training.

Ronin556

October 11, 2005, 13:41

While you are entitled to your opinion, if I recall correctly from your last post, you havn't begun your airforce training yet. While I respect a variety of techniques, I have more respect for opinions from others who actually HAVE used the techniques in infantry training.

Gunplumber, people can be whoever they want on the internet.
If you don't want to be receptive to new ideas that are improvements on the dated stuff you learned when you were "special forces", that's cool - LIKE I SAID - use what works for you. I'm not pushing my ideas on you, I'm just saying that in my opinion, the carabiner idea sucks and is outdated.

Regardless of where you place the spent magazines, they are going to flop and be awkward, so why not use a technique that completely eliminates that, and gives you the added luxury of extra carrying capacity?

Because I'm now going into the USAF does not mean I have no measureable training. I've trained with professionals in squad tactics, CQB and zero contact recon in several states over the last 5 years.
I've attended professional shooting schools, and I understand I'm not the worlds most qualified man, but I do have some knowledge on the subject of combat - and I highly doubt anyone here will be jumping out of a friggin' airplane come SHTF. Why you even brought that up is a mystery to me... perhaps to prove YOU are the worlds most qualified.

Last but not least, I did the equivilant of Army basic during Military Science and Leadership in college. I have a firm understanding of squad, platoon and infantry strategy and tactics - again, I'm not a "professional", I'm a student.

A magazine dump pouch takes up a negligable amount of space, and, as I stated before, can be used to house such goods as a gas mask, or equvilant sized objects should one be pressed for space. Once "on the ground", you can use it for whatever you want.

Look at these ideas as if someone else posted them. I'm sure you'll find that they are superior to the carabiner idea once you take your "dick shakin' contest" with me out of the equation.

gunplumber

October 11, 2005, 14:39

I'm not pushing my ideas on you, I'm just saying that in my opinion, the carabiner idea sucks and is outdated.

Thats fine, and your experince in the field is what assigns credibility (or lacvk thereof) to you "opinion".

[b]Regardless of where you place the spent magazines, they are going to flop and be awkward, so why not use a technique that completely eliminates that, and gives you the added luxury of extra carrying capacity?

Because in the real world - not your ROTC fantasies, there is no "luxury" of carry one ounce of unnecessary weight.

Because I'm now going into the USAF does not mean I have no measureable training. . .. I did the equivilant of Army basic during Military Science and Leadership in college.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. The value you place on ROTC basic camp demonstrates how much you have left to learn . . . . Even if you had completed REAL army basic - and advanced infantry training, it is only a brief introduction.

A magazine dump pouch takes up a negligable amount of space, and, as I stated before, can be used to house such goods as a gas mask, or equvilant sized objects should one be pressed for space. Once "on the ground", you can use it for whatever you want.

Sure - lets pull that old M40 out of its specailly designed case and stick it in a random sack, so so that once "on the ground" we can stick it somewhere else and use the pouch for empty mags.

I see your knowledge of NBC is even more rudimentary . . .

where you gonna stick your 256 kit? or your 58s?

Look at these ideas as if someone else posted them. I'm sure you'll find that they are superior to the carabiner idea once you take your "dick shakin' contest" with me out of the equation.

While I have learned much on the net from other professionals, so far, your posts have been an exercise in displaying your ignorance. I'll go with what has worked for me in the real world.

You will learn more as you enter military service by keeping your mouth shut and your ears open - but something tells me you are already too smart to heed advice from anyone.

Ronin556

October 11, 2005, 14:55

Because in the real world - not your ROTC fantasies, there is no "luxury" of carry one ounce of unnecessary weight.

Are you somehow implying that a magazine dump pouch is unecessary weight?

I'm not sure what passes for curtesy around here.
I've tried to be civil and decent.

At EVERY turn, you've taken it upon yourself to be as insulting as possible.
I don't know if presuming I live in a fantasy makes you feel better about who you are, but it's certainly untrue. I have a pretty realistic approach to this stuff, and I'm telling you - if you were half the man you claim to be,
first off, you wouldn't be such an arrogent prick,

secondly, you would probably already understand the benefits of a dump pouch in any sort of direct/dynamic action, and;

thirdly, you'd do more than sit around trying to insult people who don't agree with you!

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA. The value you place on ROTC basic camp demonstrates how much you have left to learn . . . . Even if you had completed REAL army basic - and advanced infantry training, it is only a brief introduction.

This is a perfect example of what I just said.
The "value" I place on it comes only from the theory and science, as well as application of strategy and tactics. I understand this constitutes NO real world experience, and I've mentioned that several times - STILL you feel it's necessary degrade any learning I've done as insufficient.
As to how much I have left to learn - pull your head out man! I've clearly stated that I'VE TRIED BOTH TECHNIQUES in a training environment - I'm not talking out my ass about some grandpappy technique that I've never tried.

Sure - lets pull that old M40 out of its specailly designed case and stick it in a random sack, so so that once "on the ground" we can stick it somewhere else and use the pouch for empty mags.

Who's talking about NBC? There are other situations where a person could utilize a gas mask without needing full MOPP. Not to mention, the HSGI and CTC Dump pouchs are MADE to fit and house the M40. I wonder, does this constitute "specially designed" to you? Or are CTC and HSGI lacking the "credentials" to pull any weight with you?

While I have learned much on the net from other professionals, so far, your posts have been an exercise in displaying your ignorance. I'll go with what has worked for me in the real world.

So you're saying that you will only give a technique the time of day if it was presented to you by a "professional"?
As if no one else has ANY idea what they are talking about?

You will learn more as you enter military service by keeping your mouth shut and your ears open - but something tells me you are already too smart to heed advice from anyone.

So far, all you've done is act like a total prick man - you've not said a single thing in the last few posts that are worthy of emulation. I really hope some of your buddies are taking note as to what a fuckin' jerk you are.

What exactly did you do in the service that makes you so qualified bud?
I've rubbed elbows with a lot of SF types, I'm right next to the 2nd Rangers - and those guys KNOW they are professionals. They don't have to put others down to feel good about themselves.

Lets have it - what's you kill count tough stuff?

doktor_ecchs

October 11, 2005, 15:19

Originally posted by Farmer from Hell
The taped portion of the "poormans mag pull" is also a convienent place to number your mags with a sharpie for identification. If you have a potential mag related failure you want to be able to weed it out and investigate the problem later.

They all start to look alike when you get home and look in your bag and try to find the one that gave you trouble.

FfH

Farmer, Mark and Ronin: Thanks for the many-teachered tutorial! The poorman's pull is something that I had never thought about or heard discussed (much like the ammo can/mag holder) The three methods discussed all have merit, IMO. The Sharpie idea is "BRILLIANT"as well. :bow: One can sit back and learn all kinds of valuable stuff here, can't one?:biggrin:

as ever,
Dr. X :fal:

hedp

October 11, 2005, 15:25

Originally posted by Ronin556

Lets have it - what's you kill count tough stuff?

Damn, every sentence you type just digs your little hole deeper and deeper.

Not that GP needs any defense from me, but I do know he's got experience enough to not get into an online answer to the above question. Professionals past and present don't pull that type of crap.

And as he said, if you truly think your little Rotzy camp experience amounted to shit in the real world Army, you are delusional.

I was just a meager enlisted Airborne Infantryman, but I'm smart enough to know that techniques are like opinions and a##holes, everyone's got one, and we all think everyone else's stinks.
I myself never cared for the carabiner method, didn't use it even though we were required by unit SOP to have taped and para corded mags. A cargo pocket with the front button undone was handy enough. Or in a real pinch, shove the empty down the neck of your uniform top. But as previously mentioned, that gets iffy when wearing IBAS.

Also, an empty mag dump pouch, while handy, is about the same as an empty, spare pocket on a rucksack. Nice concept, but full of all sorts of "mission essential " crap before you know it.:uhoh:

I don't care what technique you use for reloads and what you do with the empties (as long as you don't just drop them on the ground, mags might as well be gold in the real world) the key is to find what works for you and practice, practice, practice.
Unfortunately, though, practice and training take blood, sweat and tears, and they don't stock it in the Blackhawk Industries catalog.

Farmer from Hell

October 11, 2005, 15:56

Ronin I like your idea for a mag pull. That picture looks eerily similar to ones posted by a gentlemen on the net who's handle refers to a tool used to change a tire. I beleive he might even be a member here although I havent seen him post in a very long time. He is uber knowlegable and is always ready to opine in a civil matter. I have leaned volumes from his internet postings on various boards.

You are obviously not him as he wouldnt have expressed his opinon in the fashion you have.

In your defense I do believe the dump pouch has become the acceptable way to stow mags until you get a chance to place them back in mag pouchs. ***scratch that return to mag pouch-stupid words-WTF was I thinking when I was typing*** As far as taking up space to me its just an over size/glorified cargo pocket on my leg. To each his own.

You need to work on your message delivery system.

FfH

gunplumber

October 11, 2005, 16:34

ronin said
I understand this constitutes NO real world experience

Thank you, Ronin, you have summarized my position well.

Ronin556

October 11, 2005, 17:47

Gunplumber,

Am I the only person who noticed you didn't have a real, arguable position on dump pouches vs. carabiners other than "I'll stick to what I know works"?

If we stuck to what we knew worked, we'd still be on horseback.
I'll get back to you when I've got a combat patch.

HepD
Unfortunately, though, practice and training take blood, sweat and tears, and they don't stock it in the Blackhawk Industries catalog.

Couldn't agree more. I do hundreds of reps per week on my reloads, malfs and dry practice.
I think had my ideas been recieved with something other than hostility, you guys would probably find me an entirely different character.
Also, I believe that if Gunplumber were the "new guy" here, (and half his age, which I am) he'd probably be the one getting shit-kicked for his opinion on the matter. Take away the names, and I'll bet you find a lot more people who know wtf they are doing agree that a dump pouch is a valuable asset.

That said, I don't see why you guys keep bringing up something that I admitted didn't qualify me to speak. Keep in mind, I'm at the beginning of my career as many of you round your last curve. I'll learn from those who are "up to date" or in the know - basically, those who are still learning teachers - a group which GP is NOT a member, by his blatant ignorance with statements like "I'll stick to what I know" and insulting attitude.
I'll willing to wager he isn't what he claims.

Farmer from hell,
Much of my learning has been from the same guy, and I gave credit to his website which provided that picture. I've got no desire to drag him into my frays, but you're quite right - I'm not him, and wouldn't claim to be.
That said, this mag pull wasn't "My" Idea - it was someone from TCT's, I tried it and found it works WAY better than the loops FOR ME.

Sorry to those of you who've taken offense - if you can, put yourself in the place of a new guy who's getting the dogsnot torn out of him by some guy who thinks he's Yoda of the gun world because he was in the military.

moonbat60

October 11, 2005, 19:00

Hey guys !

Pretty interesting thread that you've got going on here.

From my past with long range recon patrols, let me point out what has been said on here : You can't prepare for each and every situation coming up on the horizon. In most of the caeses, you are either " overprepared " ( carrying too much gear around ) or " underprepared " ( carrying not enough gear or not the right gear ) Gear includes ammo.

When we went out on a let's say 3 day patrol, I used to pack a ParaFAL, 8+1 magazine for the rifle, boxed ammo in small boxes of 20 rds ( the way milsurp ammo comes ) , rations for 3 days and the other stuff, such as socks , underwear, 3 to 4 hand grenades ( not an issue here ) , and a FN HP with 3 to 4 loaded mags, survival and first aid kit.

My backpack could be dropped off, in case I needed to go a little lighter , so I could go basically with the belt , pouches and suspenders.

I used to load the first round in the rifle mag ( last round when shot ) , as tracer, so I knew when the mag was empty.

At the time when I humped all that gear , tactical vests and hydration packs were non existent .

I'd also like to point out that you get yourself a couple of good boots and break them in. Waterproof them. See that they are comfortable and that you could do a couple of miles in them in full gear without your feet hurting after two miles.

Also, do not forget navigation equipment. Scout your area and look for places where you and others with you could hide out for shorter or longer periods of time. Take two decent compasses with you, and maybe a few maps.

With LRRPs we were also supposed to use " enemy " weapons , so, if we ran out of ammo, we still had something to fight with. Pack at least 3 different knives, and if your rifle can take it, a bayonet as well.

A LRRP's equipment could exceed well about 100 or 150 lbs in wartime. If you can " conduct operations " from a vehicle or a " base / camp / hideout " , drop off your gear whenever you can. As soon as you can , rearm and refill .

Now I carry a 70 oz hydration pack, and a mag carrier pouch such as a " 6 - pack " with a shoulder strap for a quick and easy grab.

My .02

:fal:

Pete

gunplumber

October 11, 2005, 20:11

I don't have a problem with a dump pouch - in theory.

In practice, however, I don't think its practical.

where are you going to put it? Every inch of my harness had something on it. with an M16 2x canteens, butpack, 4x mag pouches, compass, knife, battle dressing. pen light, strobe light, motorola, smoke grenades, frag grenades (?). Law rocket, or AT4, or 60mm mortar round, or 84 mm KG round, or belt of ammo for the weapon squad . With an M249 substitute 2x drums for the 4x mag pouches. With an M60 substitue 2 x mag pouches, T&E and 2x demo bags with 480 rounds and sidearm for the 4x mag pouches (although I've had some luck with the bianchi shoulder rig) and don't have to carry mortar, 84mm, or AT.. So where does it go?

And as anothe poster mentioned, every available container has something stuffed in it. Since one only needs it empty when one has empty mags, and one only has empty mags after you are already in a bad way, I do not see carrying around an empty container for a rare event to be practical.

I used to stuff the empties inside my jacket - the web belt kept them from falling out. But now with body armor being standard attire, that option is ruled out.

Thus leaving

1) reinsert in mag pouch. This takes time, and you may need to have your eyes on something else, and it allows for the possibility of withdrawing an empty mag.

2) ditch the mag. This supplies your enemy and may be embarrassing if your resupply is ammo but no mags.

3)snap onto a carabiner for careful upside down insertion in mag pouch at a future time.

4) ????

edited to add: yes, I know a auto rifleman or machinegunner doesn't need a place to stick mags he doesn't carry. The illustration was meant to emphasise just how much stuff an infantryman carries, without adding an empty dump-bag.

SHARPSHOOTER

October 11, 2005, 21:19

I have never been in special operations, but I have been in combat mind you it was before I guess I even knew what a dump pouch was or maybee I was not high speed enough to know what a dump pouch was, but we used to just stuff empty mags in an empty cargo pocket or your jacket like GP said. When I worked for the DOC and I was on the SORT team at the facility where I worked I still did not have a use for a dump pouch because we had a very specific equipment loadout for our mission and when I was in Iraq the time I was in the field or on the road going somewhere I did not have any room or need for a dump pouch. I was too busy carrying all the loaded mags and other mission essential items I could stuff into my gear. I do not even think a dump pouch is a good idea in training because we always trained under the old cliche "You fight like you train and you train like you fight." There are a lot of people here who have been there and done that some real operators as it were. You could learn a lot from them I know I have.

doktor_ecchs

October 12, 2005, 07:38

In regards to "old school versus new" a quote comes to mind:" Old age and treachery will always triumph over youth and skill". I don't know who said it but I've found it to be true over and over again...

as ever,
Dr. X :fal:

moonbat60

October 12, 2005, 22:02

Hey Dr. X !

Very true, that quote......... personally, I was at my very prime in my 30's, when I gained more experience about life's ups and downs. Being skilled and gung - ho doesn't cut it, because there might always be someone to outsmart you.

In Germany I've heard the saying : " The younger foxes might be quicker, but the older ones know their burrows a lot better " . LOL !

Right now, as I'm in my mid 40's, I wish I would be as energetic as at age 25 or so. I'd be raising hell in a handbasket....... :smile:

:fal:

Pete

gunplumber

October 13, 2005, 15:59

Least I ain't a poser like some of you old fools.

There I was . .. . knee deep in handgrenade pins . . . .

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/chrism601.jpg

I know PLENTY of prior services jackoffs that don't know rat shit from rice crispies, let alone what's REALLY effective in tactical shooting. If you were combat arms, and you were current, you'd have a much better idea of what's going on in the tactical world..

Well, I probably have more time in a T-10 then he's got in a T-shirt, but its getting a bit tedious - maybe time for that ignore button.

Or maybe I'll sic Rambette, the pirate from Hell on him . .. . .

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/kjgkrink1.jpg

Everything I know I learned on Miami Vice

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/tmgpic04.jpg

Sword of Laban

October 13, 2005, 17:02

GP thanks for the carabineer idea, I was Air Force and we seem to have missed that trick. I hated my dump pouch, too many important things to pack around without having a big assed empty pouch hanging there. I used my cargo pockets as well. KA poser picks! What a cutie!!

Ronin, TI would be embarrassed for you brother. I actually thought you must be joking but then I remembered some of the non flying officers in the AF and figured hey this guy is not only for real but he will probably fit in. The reason that you have garnered so little support in this thread may have something to do with the fact that you come across as a stark raving lunatic. Obsessive compulsive disorder can come in useful sometimes but really no one gives a rip about your dump pouch. You want a dump pouch, go for it. Personally I think the kindness that GP and the others have shown you in this thread may have simply been to give you enough rope to hang yourself with, and boy did you!

I still find it difficult to believe you could possibly be this persistent and blatantly offensive. Perhaps you will take this as constructive criticism but I have a feeling that you will not. Yes this is the same SoL.

762 shooter

October 13, 2005, 18:18

Ronin, you are a stand up guy. It takes character to type what you just typed. Welcome to the files. :beer:
All of my mags go on the shooting bench to be reloaded when I'm done if anyone cares.

Sayeret Tzanhanim

October 13, 2005, 21:45

Man, did this turn into a dick-wagging contest or what?

Ronin556, just drop it.I'm sure you'll great and wonderful Tier-one things...

Gunplumber, man do you still have that hook in your mouth. C'mon, brother-man - you're above that shite.

GP - load tailored to the mission - very good point.
I've used LBE/LBV with 13 mags and a grenade pouch on the right (good for carrying Copehangen - cause to tell the truth, I have never thrown a grenade at a living person)

Most recently, 12 rounds 5.56, One smoke, one frag, MBTR, 3 mags 9mm, 1st Aid, etc

Scenario bags are a great idea - marked and packed

The minimum load I think should be 200 of whatever your long gun is
Like many here, I have used M16/M4 for the last 20 years so that is the weapon I am comfortable with
FAL would be my second choice - but I need to fine tune and shoot it much more before I completely trust it. Nothing personal...I love that gun.

About the mag pulls, I've found its better to have only one mag pull on one mag per pouch - Under stress, I have pulled out a handful of mags before! Very embarrassing.

I always used my left side cargo pouch for mag dump. Its only for tactical reloads anyway. A no-shit mag change and I let it drop

All of this is just technique. It all works if you train with it. You want to hear a group of grown-up men squabble like children, just ask them some CQB advice

"Stack on door knob or hinges? Breacher number one or two man or opposite"?
Hoooly shit.

gunplumber

October 14, 2005, 00:35

Originally posted by 762 shooter
Um, Ronin accepted responsibility for his shite. Handed out decent apologies. I think they should be graciously accepted.

Uh - which post was that?

This one?

I bet less than half of you actually know wtf you're talking about, or have seen a combat loadout in the last 20 years. . .. Least I ain't a poser like some of you old fools. Just because you slow-fire at the range once a month, you're in the know? I know PLENTY of prior services jackoffs that don't know rat shit from rice crispies . .. Being prior serivce REMF's from the 80's doesn't exactly put you at the top of the heap, did you know that?

Sayeret Tzanhanim

October 14, 2005, 11:22

Ronin556

Don't sweat it dude. I think it happens to everybody their first few posts. Recently I started posting on AR15,com after being a member for a few years.
Man, those dudes are pretty highstrung:

"Ooh! Ooh! should I get the rail-covers in Coyote-tan or in Dark-earth"?
"Get Dark-earth man, Coyote is sooo Enduring Freedom"!
"No f*ck, you...Coyote tan has served the special operations community with distinctionblahblahblah..."
:rolleyes:

One dude didn't like the vertical fore-grip I use because it looked "horrible"

For f*ck's sake

I use it cuz it don't break off. Took it off my M4 and now it's back on my CAR-15

There are quite a few ninja-fags over there.
Welcome aboard.
We're not so self-impressed over here.
ST
:whiskey:

kfranz

October 14, 2005, 14:16

Sword of Laban

October 14, 2005, 14:18

I have been in pissing contests and been 100% wrong as well. You take a gut check once you pull your head out of your ass and man up, Ronin mostly did that now but really needs to abase himself at GP's feet a bit first. I don’t know GP personally but he has always impressed me with his knowledge and ability to not get worked up.

AR15.com, I avoid that place like the plague, I think a lot of the boy's over there think their weapons are sex aids.

Great advise on the situation bags, I am going over my gear and am going to rebuild my load outs using that suggestion. Light , Medium and hvy. LBE with 4 mags, Chest rig with six and LBV with 8 or 14? LBV iss MOLLE so I can swap the pouches around quickly. 14 FAL Mags, I had better be defending.

Being a ex maintenance puke its not like I am going to be called up to do a combat patrol but if a disaster, what have you happens it doesn’t hurt to look like I know what the hell I’m doing. I do use the Hvy load at tactical rifle match one way range. I don’t get things done quite as fast as the lightly encumbered folks but I also don’t get penalties for exposing myself to threats. Take my time quickly engage “threats” as they come up while using cover from the other targets. Unless things really get messed up here in the US0fA that’s the only type of combat shooting I will ever see.

Not totally posing but still not anything like the real thing, just training.

http://www.enivaway.com/test/sword/3a6-11-5FAL3.JPG

http://www.enivaway.com/test/sword/3a6-11-5FAL5.JPG

kfranz

October 14, 2005, 14:26

G3 with the zip tie stiffener...

From http://www.renegaderecon.com/article_details.php?id=47

gunplumber

October 14, 2005, 14:30

Ronin mostly did that now but really needs to abase himself at GP's feet a bit first

Not necessary, nor desired.

But I haven't seen anything that even vaguely resembles an apology to the whole group of members to whom he directed his filthy diatribe. I am curious what you and 7.62 shooter are viewing as an apology.

By the way, kudos to you. Train as you will fight - some of the shooting course I have attended had students wearing the most interesting gear - quick draw speed stuff. I typically wear what I would normall wear. Sure, its slower to draw from concealment if you have to sweep a jacket and use an IWB holster, but who walks through the grocery store with a thigh holster (well, this is AZ, and I have seen it. . . .. . including a security guard carrying a Gerber Mk II in a calf holster. I asked if he was going to stab the shoplifter on Isle 3 . . .?)

Speed is a function of economy of movement and repetiton. I used to do revolver drills at a friend's place and he had a a little bucket on a pedestal next to the shooting station he used for dumping his cylinder. We were at a different range doing el presidente drillls and he faltered because he had trained himself to "save his brass" and was looking for his dump bucket!

idsubgun

October 14, 2005, 14:41

Thanks for the pics.

I know the tape is sticky but what prevents the para cord from being pulled free from the tape? I guess the good GI green duct tape will hold it and as everyone knows, the longer that shit's stuck to something, the harder it is to get off. Just seems if you were a wee bit stressed, you could pull one side of the para cord off.

JoeLad

October 14, 2005, 14:50

Originally posted by idsubgun

I know the tape is sticky but what prevents the para cord from being pulled free from the tape? I guess the good GI green duct tape will hold it and as everyone knows, the longer that shit's stuck to something, the harder it is to get off.

That's a no shitter there. Last year I bought some used M16 mags on eGay from a Marine out in San Diego. Most had the OD green duct tape on them, with busted para cord still attached. It made me wonder how the cord was broken, and just when/where it happened. And getting the tape off was a PITA.

JoeLad:D

gunplumber

October 14, 2005, 14:58

kindof hard to tell from the pic - but the way I do it is 1 -1/2 wraps of 1/2 width OD Duct tape with the ends of the cord facing the bottom of the mag and flush with the bottom and the loop to the top.

Then fold the loop down and 1-1/2 more wraps. This way, the cord can't come off unless the tape itself is torn off with it.

I've seen AR mags with a knot through the hole in the floorplate, but I don't think this gives enough of a loop.

Sword of Laban

October 14, 2005, 15:59

Totally agree TS! That’s why I went with coyote, didn’t want the real warriors to think I was light in the loafers just because I don’t know s&!^. My magpulls are green tape though…

Having respect for my BTDT advisers who through my introduction to EBR suggested I train how I would fight I have strove to do just that. Lots of good competitors have suggested that I use more match specific speed gear, I am always close to really good times. Great guys that I do respect but I am not there to win the competition but to shoot in damn uncomfortable positions at targets that present minimal opportunity to engage, are always in surprising locations and somewhat resemble in a faint way a combat type environment.

GP you are right, he really didn’t come out and apologize to the huge number of people he degraded in his posts. He only started admitting that he was not the god of war. The fact that he was putting down veterans pissed me off even more and just saying sorry is not nearly enough, thus the abasement comment. Crapping on been their done that’s is inexcusable behavior. Even in the rare cases that you are right it still shows poor judgment, a lack of class and honor to call them old fools.

Sayeret Tzanhanim

October 14, 2005, 17:33

Totally agree TS!
You know I was being sarcastic, right? Referring to my previous post, that is.
:beer:

Sword of Laban

October 14, 2005, 17:53

Naturally :wink: I was infering a jest from your comment about AR15.com.

FAL's rule, poodles drool. I got that one from my seven year old daughter.

AGC

October 14, 2005, 18:05

Originally posted by gunplumber
kindof hard to tell from the pic - but the way I do it is 1 -1/2 wraps of 1/2 width OD Duct tape with the ends of the cord facing the bottom of the mag and flush with the bottom and the loop to the top.

Then fold the loop down and 1-1/2 more wraps. This way, the cord can't come off unless the tape itself is torn off with it.

I've seen AR mags with a knot through the hole in the floorplate, but I don't think this gives enough of a loop.

I actively discouraged my soldiers from doing the "knot under the floorplate" loop. I've seen a bunch of magazines rigged this way that ended up unserviceable. Sometimes they were salvageable with a new floorplate; sometimes the floorplate retention tabs were broken.

The tape attachment seems a better idea, especially the double wrapping. The zip-tie stiffener sounds like it's worth trying as well.

STGThndr

October 14, 2005, 22:43

Well, after all of that.... what can I say??? What Ive used for many years... since the early '80's, is EITHER- Chicom six mag chest pouch filled with 30 rnd AR mags or with 30 rnd AK mags, plus the one in the gun. Also a Makarov or an S&W .38 snubbie.
I've used all these things over the years, trust them (and me) and appreciate the relative weight savings. My HKs, M1A, .45 autos, BHP etc etc are for using and enjoying but the facts is all that truck is too heavy/bulky to lug for long at my age. The AR Bushie carbine is the lightest and most ergonomic- while I have trusted my life to the AK and can use it in my sleep. Both are "stock".
Pistol use? Appendages when I have my rifle and smaller is good enuff. My tune may change if faced with stopping mobs of rape-crazed New Orleanians from 100 yards after my rifle runs dry...
These weapons are in good ballistic nylon carry cases with pouches on the sides, cleaning kit and the pistols. A handful but all there and good to go. The wife knows what and where should she get a call for my "briefcase". A Cold Steel knife is with each, and a small stone is in my duty bag.
The pull-tab on the mags... that will be done to mine soon.. and the ammo carton with extra loaded mags.. Wonder why I never considered that before?!?? I hate friggin loose ammo in my pockets.

hunterwarrior

October 17, 2005, 01:32

Found in my file archives. These are all in PDF format for easy printing.

Gear Recommendations

1st Line Gear (http://www.r390files.com/pdfs/tireiron1.pdf) is SURVIVAL GEAR

2nd Line Gear (http://www.r390files.com/pdfs/tireiron2.pdf) is FIGHTING GEAR

3rd Line Gear - Light (http://www.r390files.com/pdfs/tireiron3.pdf) is LIVING GEAR

3rd Line Gear - Heavy (http://www.r390files.com/pdfs/tireiron4.pdf)

mparrish

October 17, 2005, 06:28

Ronin,

I'll take you on, albeit briefly. In the matter of gear, why chat about it here? The schoolhouse will beat the shit into you when the time comes. Frankly, the last thing I cared about was more worthless shit on me, like a dump pouch, when the pack and webbing was pushing 80#+.

Relax, take a deep breath. By the time you get done with Basic, then schoolhouse, then Survival, you'll get to know why we streamline to essentials. You should know that from your training experience (BTW, I am not aware of anyone in country using dump pouches but some are using loops, tabs, Magpuls, whatever - why not address this at www.ROMAD.com, if that is your desired AFSC).

Oh, when you start floating out about TACP and throwing out terms like that, you never know who is watching, who has contacts at the schoolhouse. Past experience as a ROTC goober will have some help but doesn't make ya a stud. Just remember that. Watched a few egos get deflated and sent off to other schools at the schoolhouse.

Relax dude.

Oh yeah, BTDT. Falcon 33. Out in 99. Ain't special, just doing my thing now.

PS - as a cop humping 15+# worth of bat belt crap these days, I can guarantee the idea of having as little as possible strapped some way to your waist is constantly reinforced. Was in my ROMAD days, still is today.

PPS - cookie eating privledges??? Now THAT's funny!

(and probably true . . . )

PPPS - IBTDB

Sayeret Tzanhanim

October 17, 2005, 13:36

mparrish, well done.
"Thus endeth the lesson"

doktor_ecchs

October 17, 2005, 14:47

Originally posted by Sayeret Tzanhanim
About the mag pulls, I've found its better to have only one mag pull on one mag per pouch - Under stress, I have pulled out a handful of mags before! Very embarrassing.

A very good point...more good information! :bow:

as ever,
Dr. X :fal:

gunplumber

October 17, 2005, 18:52

for those who like the mag pulls, I am selling off the ones I am not using dirt cheap

3 dozen 9mm
1 dozen 7.62
1/2 dozen .223

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152485

moonbat60

October 17, 2005, 21:26

Hey Mark !

What's wrong with those mag pulls ? Tired of those, or just wanting to get rid of them ?

:fal:

Pete

gunplumber

October 17, 2005, 21:39

nothing is "wrong" with them - they are all brand new and they perform exactly as advertised.

For my method of carry, I prefer the para cord. If I was to use a 2-deep chest pouch or combat harness, then I might keep them, but In the mag pouches I use, they make for a too tight fit, and for lack of a more scientific explanation, I prefer my old-timer-grandpa-wannabe-hasbeen-para cord from the 80s. Back before the average 12 year old paint-baller had more technologically advanced equipment than an Batallion of Airborne Rangers.

BlackCat

October 17, 2005, 21:40

What's the skinny on the new crop of leg-mounted LCE that's going around?
I vaguely recall seeing a more complete setup in Brigade Quartermasters or somesuch, but I saw this- http://www.texastacticalgear.com/index.php?crn=61&rn=314&action=show_detail - tonight over at Texas Tactical and it made me think of it.

Anyone use a setup like this with groundbreaking results, or is it just another ploy to fink over some ninjas?

gunplumber

October 17, 2005, 21:48

I've seen similar rigs employed by crew chiefs/door gunners on pave-lows - one with an MP5K PDW.

In viewing the ad, however, I am reminded of a pet peeve - and that is ANY pouch that is advertised to be Both m-16/AK 47 AND HK G3/FAL/M-14.

My experience has been that it has to be EITHER one or the other.

a 20 rd .308 mag simply sits too deep in an AK mag pouch for effective retrieval. You can ram a few battle dressings at the bottom to elevate them, but its working around what I see as a defect. It took me a long time to find a chest pouch that was dedicated .308 and not a fit-everything compromise. (got from Tim Weaver @ Practical Tactical)

Sayeret Tzanhanim

October 17, 2005, 22:53

The molle/spear off-side platforms are beneficial for CQB (flash bangs, pro-masks, dump pouch, 1st. Aid, what-not). I never use them. Just more stuff. I'm sure there are those that use them and swear by them, but I would guess they would be SWAT/SRT, CAG, DevGroup, etc. Any fruity contractor wearing one just likes to look cool, I'd wager.
There's gotta be a balance between flexibility and speed vs. munitions and protection.

BlackCat

October 17, 2005, 23:00

Practical Tactical, eh?

I've been looking for a dedicated 7.62 getup, and looking at what they offer, I'd probably opt for the SST Mag Pouch (FAL/M1A only- looking good)
http://www.practicaltactical.net/Detail.bok?no=105
on the MESA Assault Vest
http://www.practicaltactical.net/Detail.bok?no=62
To keep things streamlined and practical.
A cleaning kit, navigational bits, and general utility could be handled by a pair of smaller Maxpedition pouches up top. 100 oz resivoir for the back, connected to a Wilderness belt and Spec-Ops buttpack and it seems like a pretty no-nonsense rig. I'm not planning on donning a ninja mask and breaking through any skylights, just wandering around the homestead South Africa style- should the need arise.

I think its a bit of a shame that Spec-Ops doesn't make a dedicated 7.62 pouch, I like their products and prices.

Opie

October 17, 2005, 23:04

While I can't really say "been there, done that" I can say that after 12 years of service, I pack only the essentials with me. I take notes on what other people have done, and if I like the idea I use it, modify it to work for me, or I just flat try something else. Just because it's not for you doesn't mean that it won't work for someone else. On the same note, why push off something you use like it's the gospel? Will I use a mag pouch? Nope, not because it's a bad idea, but rather I know that I would pack unneeded shyte in it instead of using it for the purpose that it is intended for. Would I use a Chest-pouch? Nope, but for the simple fact that I deem it unnecessary to have something like that for three mags. I'm more inclined to use a bandoleer and strippers/loaders if it comes to that at present. If I have to shoot 60 rounds and I still haven't been able to get myself out of a tight spot then I have a problem, and this really applies only to a SHTF issue anyway.

gunplumber

October 18, 2005, 09:15

the first is the .308. Not Made by practical tactical, I forget who made it - but I bought it from PT. The second is surplus south african.

On the former, I like it because of wide straps that do not criss-cross. criss-cross straps annoy me as they seem to scissor on my kneck. Fasteners are heavy - debateable whether superior or inferior to velcroe.

On the latter, straps too thin and they criss-cross. the shoulder pads are fine but they taper into 1/2" webbing that cuts because its so thin.

I think 4 pouces would have fit fine.

I attached a canadian puuch on one side and a glock on the other ina UM 84 bus I haven't decided if I really like it there.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/chest01.jpg

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/webpictures/chest02.jpg

Sayeret Tzanhanim

October 18, 2005, 12:22

training is that you need to stay alive
That's right.
Mission planning, target intelligence, teamwork (team cohesion and good buddieswho know you and how you move) and training are more important
(I mean hell, that's METT-T) than execution - because all plans change.
I'd love to have a Callahan plate carrier but in the final analysis, it wouldn't help me if I had no head above the ears.

moonbat60

October 18, 2005, 20:10

Hey guys !

I agree pretty much on Opie's , gearlogo's and Sayeret's post. I served for 5 yrs on active duty in the ( West ) German Army with 1st Div. LRRPs,and got out as an SSG. I was still with reserve LRRPs for another 16 years after that.

In LRRP we used to carry all of our gear, as our CO used to tell us : " A man is born with two legs, not two or four wheels " . This was quite some endeavour, most of the time, and going with lots of cussing and swearing. But in the end, I found still some enjoyment in it all, and I benefit from that great training till today.

Regarding all the issues debated here, I support mostly gearlogo's views. The most important thing is that you need to stay alive and well. That way, I figured out what I need in some possible engagement, and what I could carry comfortably for an extended period of time. So, a protective vest is out, for I'd rather like to go light, and have more freedom of movement and the ability to move fast. So, I also don't fancy chest carriers or tactical vests, for when I need to get down, I don't want to lay on two layers of mags and get my butt shot off.

You can have the best equipment that money could buy, but if you ain't got the right training and the right mindset, forget about engaging in more than a bar room altercation. If you give an untrained or poorly trained soldier the best equipment, he won't be able to work miracles, for most of the time he will not be able to use it effectively, and the likelihood of him getting killed or injured is much higher .

If you give a well trained soldier good to average equipment and he knows what to do with it, chances that he might come back unhurt are much higher.

To Ronin ........you are quite entertaining, I really laughed a lot.......join the mall ninjas, that might be right up your alley ( if they don't kick you to the curb as well..... ) !

:fal:

Pete

ballistic308

October 27, 2005, 23:05

A bump for the thread.

I personally have an S.O.Tech. patrol vest in which I carry 12 30rd mags for the AR, or 11 20rd mags for the PTR-91 or FAL.

I also have a "reduced loadout" which consists of 9 AR mags or 8 .308 mags., etc., etc.

I just like getting ideas from others. Keep em' coming!:biggrin:

gunplumber

October 28, 2005, 09:26

I read in McBride's "a rifleman went to war" that the combat load for one of his mach9neguns - apparently a mix of captured maxims, vickers, and Colt 1917s) was 60,000 rounds a day, and one gun had to fire 28,000 rounds pretty much continuously. The discussion was on autoloaders for the average rifleman and his opinion was the bolt action was fine because the infantryman was already overloaded with his 100 rounds, which wasn't enough to last him even a day!

During the Somme, he had 12-15 men doing nothing but carrying ammo up for his sections' guns..

Sayeret Tzanhanim

October 28, 2005, 12:12

12-15 men doing nothing but carrying ammo up for his sections' guns

They must've had REALLY cool vests!
:cool:

Point well made - ammo load should be support the task

redbear

October 28, 2005, 15:01

I've kind of assumed that mym "combat load" would be the same as my Bug out bag and my SHTF bag. That being said, I have someone else to consider. The little lady has asthema and a very terrible shoulder due to a car accident, she's a pretty ddecent shot, but can't handle recoil well. that being said, betweent eh two of us;

Kimber Eclipse Cusotm II w/3 mags [loaded with Pow'r'ball]
Russian Makarov w/2 mags [loaded with corbon]
100 extra rounds of .45 ACP [loaded with speer gold dots], sealed
100 rounds of 9X18 [laoded with silver bear], sealed
Hungarian AMD-63, 5 mags [loaded with mil-spec]
Bulgarian AKM-74, with Kobra sight, 5 mags [loaded with barnual]
700 rounds 7.62X39,sealed
750 rounds 5.45X39, sealed
4 man tent
12 MREs
2 gasmasks
Ka-Bar
Swiss card
surefire flashlight
cell phone
2 heavy winter coats
2 wool blankets
First aid kit
one moth supply of Asthema medicine
Aspirin
hammer, punch, screwdriver
complete rifle cleaning kit, with oil and solvent in a small container [4"X6"x2"]

Items I'm hoping to add in the immediate future;
sewing kit
glo-sticks
water purification tablets

Any ideas of what else I shjould add/consider?

gunplumber

October 28, 2005, 16:16

A whellbarrow in which to carry it?

Hey - I'm only half kidding.

On the Morman Exudus to Salt Lake City, there were several "handcart companies"

Basically, a small rough-terrain wagon designed to be pulled by a man.

And it was used in Early WWII and maybe WWI also to pull the 1917 watercooled browning and its anciary equipment. It could be pulled by a vehicle, or have the gun set up for use and manhandled by the crew.

Not a whole lot different than the limbers of the napoleonic era for the light field cannons.

And I recall some experimenting in Gulf War 1 with man-portable wagons for hauling casualties and heavy crew served weapons like the 81mm mortan and the TOW II.

justashooter

October 29, 2005, 07:02

Originally posted by JoeLad

I carried 7 mags of 5.56, two USGI canteens, first aid kit, bayonet, flak jacket, steel pot, and M16 quite easily. JoeLad:D

that's cause you one big son of ...

us little guys will have to travel lighter and forage.

doktor_ecchs

October 29, 2005, 18:02

Redbear,
As far as what to add to your list, I would suggest getting more asthma medicine. It never really dawned on me how important stuff like that would be until I read Rawles' book "Patriots", and just the idea of their group not stockpiling enough coffee made me realize the importance of erring on the side of excess as far as medicines (and ammo, for that matter) are concerned. If your lady needs the stuff to breathe, seems to me you couldn't have enough of it, just in case events took longer than a month to blow over...:)

as ever,
Dr. X :fal:

Artful

October 29, 2005, 19:04

Originally posted by gunplumber
A whellbarrow in which to carry it?

Hey - I'm only half kidding.

On the Morman Exudus to Salt Lake City, there were several "handcart companies"

Basically, a small rough-terrain wagon designed to be pulled by a man.

And it was used in Early WWII and maybe WWI also to pull the 1917 watercooled browning and its anciary equipment. It could be pulled by a vehicle, or have the gun set up for use and manhandled by the crew.

Not a whole lot different than the limbers of the napoleonic era for the light field cannons.

And I recall some experimenting in Gulf War 1 with man-portable wagons for hauling casualties and heavy crew served weapons like the 81mm mortan and the TOW II.

I'd suggest investing in a bike to go with it for good conditions (but of course you have a horse) but look into non-gasoline powered sources of transportation in case the bug-out runs out of bug-juice.

B Wood

October 29, 2005, 19:32

Mark - the chest pouch you have is made by High Speed Gear in Jacksonville, NC. Tim W from Practical Tactical sells them as most here know. High Speed makes some of the best tac gear out there.

I have two High Speed Gear set ups....one is the Mesa vest from Practical Tactical / High Speed. Great vest. Mine is set up for 7.62mm Nato at the moment.

The chest rig I have is a High Speed Gear Denali rig. Damn thing is TOUGH. Your chest pouch is basically the mag section of the Denali rig. The Denali has two drop down sections for maps / etc. Love mine.

B Wood

October 29, 2005, 19:34

Here is the Denali rig with the map section open

AGC

October 29, 2005, 20:35

A handcart or small trailer is not at all a bad idea if you're going to be moving on foot.

The US military has begun fielding carts for evacuating casualties, and hauling ammunition and weapons. There's some info at http://www.combatreform.com/atac.htm that could be useful for do-it-yourselfers. They're not fans of using bike wheels (or other narrow wheels) for such carts, and they do make a good case for wider wheels' advantages in sand and mud, but I think there is also a case to be made for using bike wheels, especially if you're likely to be travelling on pavement or hardpacked trails, and if you're towing with a bike or small motorcycle.

Harvester of Sorrow

November 03, 2005, 02:26

the combat load for one of his mach9neguns - apparently a mix of captured maxims, vickers, and Colt 1917s)

Mark, it's been a while since I read that one, but I believe he actually started the war with either the 1895 colt or the marlin-rockwell licensed copy. I seem to recall that he discusses switching to the Vickers later on in the book. Regardless, it's an excellent book. Other than Dolf Goldsmith's books and "Ordnance Went up Front," I wish there were more books from the machine-gunner's perspective.

gunplumber

November 03, 2005, 09:17

habving just finished it - it is kindof rambling - I guess I misunderstood. I assumed he was using a colt manufactured browning water-cooled when he said "colt" but IN one of the last chapters he mentioned it was air cooled. He also used the vickers

thats a lot of rounds for an air-cooled.

Harvester of Sorrow

November 03, 2005, 11:37

thats a lot of rounds for an air-cooled.

Heh, definitely. Also, it's interesting to read how MG's were sometimes used back then in an indirect fire role. I haven't found that many first-hand accounts of people using the 1895 gun that much, but McBride certainly seemed impressed by it. I guess if you're John Browning, even your first attempts at things work "well enough.":)

Palo

November 03, 2005, 19:46

AGC mentioned handcarts. In the volunteer SAR group I belong to, we use a couple of carts from Cabela's called the 'Super Mag Hauler'. They were about $130.00. They have puncture proof 20" bike tires & can handle up to 500lb.s of gear (or injured / deceased). They also fold up for storage & transport. Very handy and useful.

101AASLT

November 03, 2005, 21:47

In Iraq my combat load was 12 loaded 30rd mags, 2x6rd bandoliers of 40mm HE rounds, 2xfrag grenades, combat knife, M-16A4 w/1mag, ACOG and M-203 grenade launcher, Helmet, PVS-14(night vision), IBA w/ 2xSAPI plates and my assualt pack with 2liters water(camelback bladder), 6 more 30rd magazines and 1more bandolier of 40mm rds and 2 smoke grenades and some power bars.
Not a survival load by any means, just what you pack into battle. I didnt always carry the assualt pack, just when we knew it was gonna be hairy. Lord it was all heavy, but after a year you get used to it.

olsarg

November 04, 2005, 01:26

Believe basic load was 2 pouchs W/4magazines 20 rds plus 1 magazine in rifle for M14 100 rounds aditional ammo was in bandoleers. Don't have my belt for M1 anymre was it 10 8 round clips or? so long ago You forget . Try 2 sets fatigues 5 pair socks 5 sets under wear 1 pair boots one pair overshoes shelter half poles pegs rope sleeping bag poncho shovel 2 towels 4 wash rags field jacket hat plus TA 21 web gear helmet ect nice basic enfantry load (leg) with m1. used to do 20 mile hikes I hear.

gunplumber

November 04, 2005, 09:38

We went through a lot of thought on how to lighten the weapon's squad's combat load, since 3 machineguns with spare barrels and tripods and 1200 rounds per gun weight a lot. and the three man gun crew REQUIRED o do the job right never seemed to happen - we were almost always short one guy./

One of the advantages of a squad is that you can crossload essentials. While an individual will have to have everything in his kit, if he permanently links up with others, they can ditch redundant "community" stuff.

For example, one entrenching tool for every other person. Everyone doesn't need one 'cause one guy is on security while the other is digging. 5 pair of underwear? Yeah, it might be nice to have fresh skivvies every day but wearing the same underwear 2 days in a row ain't gonna kill you. Socks on the other hand, you can never have enough of. Spare uniform? Heck, thats what duct tape is for.

Clothing can in many places be rinsed out at water sources.

One of the things I learned patrolling in the southeast was the mosquitos were vicious for the first dfay, but after a nice coat of sweat and dirt had built up, they didn't bother me as much.

And if an agressor force was on 24 hour rotation (which was typical) you could smell them from a hundred meters down wind because of the perfumy cleaning products.

I also avoided an ambush during MOuntain ranger camp becasue I smelled Copenhagen chewing tobacco.

anyway, I ramble - the point is that there are many ittems of which one person need s to carry one, but two people still only need to carry one.

B Wood

November 04, 2005, 09:47

Interesting bit of info to share

spend a lot of time with the troops. anyone care to guess what one of the highest weight items is with current combat loads?

If you guessed Nylon you would be right.

A number of the units are looking for lighter weight nylons for vests, cases, harnesses, etc. They are looking at other synthetics as well. Vest designs are not holding up no matter WHO makes them. All nylon equipment fails. Period. The only issue is how quickly the equipment will fail. Some manufacturers such as Blackhawk have a much higher failure rate than Eagle, High Speed Gear, etc. That performance comes with a weight price tag typically. High Speed Gear is bullet proof...but weighs a ton. Blackhawk is lighter, but seams rip out often.

Tac vests, etc are going to a shell design...i.e..replaceable pockets / panels, form the outer shell that can be abraded, cut, etc...and easily replaced. The inner core would remain.

If you want a real eye opener....weigh all your nylon gear......or for that matter weigh all your gear period.

gunplumber

November 04, 2005, 09:54

An interesting book was publiched by the USMC press. By SLA MArshall.

Came with two thesis combined. oone ewas a "a soldier's load" and the other "the mobility of a nation."

Now SLA marshall is a fraud and invented much of his data for his men and fire thesis, but its still worth reading.

The other is called "Jungle SNAFUs" about a guy who was with the first jungle unit deployed in world war II. He intensely analizes the weight/durability factor and equipment design and failure.

MTS

November 04, 2005, 16:09

How about using the shoulder bag like the Soviet bloc magazine bag, offset by a similar gas mask bag or something on the other side?

I've got a 4 cell magazine bag like this w/ 3 AK mags (30's) and the other cell with cleaning gear, knife, food, etc.

I put this together with the idea of "what if" I had to hit the door w/o warning.

No real knowledge or experience here, but I thought I'd throw this out for feedback.

Sayeret Tzanhanim

November 04, 2005, 16:52

MTS,
Mountain men used to call those a "Possibles Bag". Gunpower, balls, flint, tinder, and a few other essential items for possible situations.
Good practice to have one in the truck. Maxpedition makes good shoulder bags.

MTS

November 04, 2005, 19:20

I was reminded of the possibles bag when I rigged a gas mask bag for hunting. The com-bloc mag carrier seems like the best way to cart the ammo short of web gear.

These kind of evolved into "load out" for me.

kfranz

November 05, 2005, 20:23

Originally posted by Sayeret Tzanhanim
MTS,
Mountain men used to call those a "Possibles Bag". Gunpower, balls, flint, tinder, and a few other essential items for possible situations.
Good practice to have one in the truck. Maxpedition makes good shoulder bags.

I'll second the Maxpedition stuff. I've got a fatboy, and while its primary purpose is to haul diapers, water, and beef jerky to help keep the kids content when we are travelling, if needed, it would hold mags of all varieties.

Rawles

November 12, 2005, 22:00

Decades ago, I set myself up with tactical web gear that was dedicated to M1As. The only significant change in recent years was that I "migrated" to L1A1s. (Which is a long story in itself.)

I have three basic load increments set aside *for each family member* in my "Get Out of Dodge" (G.O.O.D.) packs and duffles, just in case our retreat is over-run. (The dreaded worst case scenario).

These three incremental loads equate to the old U.S. army doctrine of "fighting load", "sustainment load", and "subsistence load." I've built four complete sets, for the members of my immediate family. (BTW, I'll probably be piecing together a fifth set, once my #3 Son turns 12 years old.)

Here is how they add up, incrementally:

The fighting load has just the basic set of web gear. Total weight with rifle, loaded magazines, and full canteens is 21 to 36 pounds, depending on the individual for whom the web gear was tailored. For ease of storage and "grab it and go" convenience, each set of web gear is packed in an oversize earth-tone nylon sleeping bag stuff sack.

The sustaining load adds a CFP-90 or ALICE pack, which includes tentage.

The subsistence load adds TWO extra NRS Whitewater rafting "Portage Pack" dry bags, per person. These hold extra rations, cooking gear, extra batteries, extra bandoleers, and so forth. BTW, one of these two duffles is a designated "cold weather" duffle. Total weight, including an L1A1 and ammo ranges between 145 to 210 pounds! Needless to say, the entire sustainment load is not designed to be carried all at once, but since it is stored in waterproof portage packs (with comfortable shoulder straps and proper padded belly bands) it is at least easily transportable. This would require three "ferrying" trips to a bivouac site.

- - - -

As some useful background, the following is posted at the Army Natick Labs web site:

Standards developed for the Army field manual titled “Foot Marches” printed in 1990 list maximum weights troops should carry for a fighting load, approach march load and emergency march load, figures determined with help from research at the Natick Soldier Center and U.S. Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine.

A fighting load is everything worn or carried except a rucksack and should be held to less than 48 pounds, according to the field manual. The next level, approach march load, adds a light rucksack and should not exceed 72 pounds. In the worst-case scenario, emergency approach march loads require a larger rucksack, raising the total weight to 120-150 pounds.

Past research has provided more insight into combat loads. A British study from the 1920s concluded that the fighting load should not exceed 40-45 pounds, and S.L.A. Marshall, author of the 1950 book “The Soldier Load and the Mobility of a Nation,” advised that the combat load should remain less than about 40 pounds.

Viewed another way, the load should not exceed 30 percent of a person’s body weight when carrying an approach march load. Dean’s team weighed and photographed troops at every level, from wearing only their basic uniforms and boots to what they carried for their emergency approach march loads for 29 different positions in rifle companies.

gunplumber

November 13, 2005, 09:30

Originally posted by Rawles
I have three basic load increments set aside *for each family member* in my "Get Out of Dodge" (G.O.O.D.) packs and duffles, just in case our retreat is over-run. (The dreaded worst case scenario).

These three incremental loads equate to the old U.S. army doctrine of "fighting load", "sustainment load", and "subsistence load." I've built four complete sets, for the members of my immediate family. (BTW, I'll probably be piecing together a fifth set, once my #3 Son turns 12 years old.)

This is similar to our setup when I was serving as an Army Ranger (Back when it was hard).

Personal fighting load was weapon, ammo, canteens, compass, aid pouch, strobe, knife, etc. Everything on combat harness and butpack. This never left your body.

Then the rucksack with Mission essential equipment, sleep gear, more water, e-tool, food, sandbags (empty) blah blah blah. The ruck would be left in the Objective rally point before assaulting an objective. It could also be dumped and/or cashed if doing an E&E.

Then was the "D" bag, which was "deployment" and had extra clothes, MOPP gear, etc. IT fit in a duffle bag and was tagged and locked and under your bunk. Then the "C" bag which was for "cold weather" and had mickey mouse boots, gortex extreme cold weather gear and polypro "bear suit". artic overwhites, etc. It also was tagged and locked and under the bunk.

Should the unit be activated, and while on "stanby" we were on 3 hour recall and 18 hours from alert to wheels up. - you'd take your personal gear and ruck, and the supply guys could ship your duffle bag to your area of operation afterwards.

Prioritizing as Mr. Rawles has pointed out, - your carry gear, your nice to have but too heavy to carry gear, and your "long term stay" gear. Each already tagged and bagged.

fusalautoleger

December 02, 2005, 20:33

back just befor the (ban)i got a rather large cheak .. so i had some extra cash too spend in a very good gun store they had evry thing spent money on things i did need the sar 48 was not one and the colt govt ar 15 was was not one .. bought 22 rifles that year.. my get home weapon was a mdle b uzi in 45 kept in my office i had a key board tray that slide under the desk.. thats where uzi was kept.. 12g 8 shot ithaca in the car or van.. but got tired of having somany guns with their differnt ammos to buy spare parts bla bla bla.. so i got rid of the stuff that was not nato broke down what i needed and what i could feed.... i liked my uzi because i could swicth between 9s and 45skept that kept my fal .. shotgun ruger 10/22got everything down too common ammo that i could find anywhere.. got rid of all the hard to come by stuff.. who is gonna invade us with 7.62sov the big guys that could dont use it anymore..so went the ak s and skses.. m1garand gone not a collectiable as went m1 carbine ..spend the mony and buy 5 or 6 98ks rechambered for 308 .. got a few enfields in 308 too .. stashed them in places i could get too with 75 rounds each ..by going this way i made the main ammo i that would have buy common to my rifles..by doing this it freed me up to buy the max for every thing ..spare parts ,mags barrels..pins ,springs more ammo more ammo .. now the guns that are stashed only long enough too get too the next stash..stash guns are the spare parts them selves

fusalautoleger

December 02, 2005, 20:37

the guns that i did need where fal /colt govt ar15 is what i ment to say

goldenspurholderx2

December 11, 2005, 02:27

I read a quote somewhere on the net and I don't know the exact words but it goes something like: "live with what's in your pack, fight with what's on your belt(to me meaning your molle vest), and survive with what's in your pockets".

To answer the origional spirit of the thread, when I am given the choice of what to carry for a couple of hours dismounted patrol being close to armor support the items that I carry that ONLY pertain to my rifle, not everything else I'm carrying include: 7x full mags, an otis cleaning kit, exrta batteries for my M68(aimpoint), a muzzle cap or two peices of 100mph tape criss crossed over my muzzle and a good three point sling of my own making. If I had a choice the mags would be in a chest harness and if I was carrying a FAL(which I wish I was) I would only carry 5x20rnd mags four in the harness and one in the rifle. I have seen first hand the difference in effects between what gov't issue 5.56 and 7.62 will do to someone and I believe when only hits count you will need less 7.62 than 5.56. Just my 2cents from my experiences.:wink:

firefuzz

December 11, 2005, 13:08

I haven't looked at this thread since it was less that one page long and after spending the last 2 hours reading it I've learned several new tips on gear, been reminded of things I'd forgotten, and am in the process of revamping some of my plans and tactics. I've saved this thread to my favorites to be able to go back and review in the future.

Firstly, to all you 'old fool' soldiers and Marines that have participated in this thread up to the present, especially Mark, I applaud your self-restraint in dealing with certain parties and keeping this thread out of the basement.:bow:
I wouldn't have been as patient as you were.

As far as 'old school' training and methods, if we were reduced to being just a man and our weapon of choice, without all the techno crap that relies on batteries and satellites, I seriously doubt that many, if any, of us would survive a one on one encounter in the woods with one of the original Rogers Rangers or the Green Mountain Boys. It's not all the gear that gets the job done, it's the person using the gear that counts. A single shot muzle loader will still kill today, just as will a Garand or .30-30 lever action, not my weapons of choice, but I still respect their capability in the hands of a person skilled in their use.

The hand cart and zip-tie reinforced mag pulls are ideas I will incorperate into my gear/plans. As are the dispersing of non-essential firearms and ammo kits to the neighbors. They're good people and I won't be where I live now in a SHTF situation.

The heavy hitters, the FALs and their components are going to the retreat, my Dad's place in country, about 10 miles by road. This is where the majority of my gear already is.

My 'get to the base camp' weapon will be an 870 riot gun, backed by a Glock 17. The wife will carry an M4 with an identical side arm. It the situation warrents, we can trade long guns. My basic load of ammo will be 80/buck and 20/slugs plus 3 mags for the pistol. Hers will be a 108 rds of .223 loaded in 4/30rd mags.

Lots of good info in this thread.

Rob

gunplumber

December 16, 2005, 11:25

Originally posted by goldenspurholderx2
Rob and especially Mark, just read the first couple of threads in the post and skipped around due to time limits on the net. Thought I was answering the origional spirit of the post other than that no excuses, sorry, will pull head out of fifth point of contact.

I don't know what you are apologising for. Your post was spot on topic in my opinion.

You open a whole category of "combat load" - that of the motorized infantry that has a big "horse" carrying most of the gear and dismounts for patrolling (till they run out of gas . . . .. . ).

MTS

December 17, 2005, 10:23

Before this thread dies, I need to ask a question about my LBE set-up from some who have used this stuff.

Right now, my mag pouches are in the usual spot, on the belt and connected to the suspenders.

These are AK pouches for three 30 round mags and are pretty big and bulky. What I'm thinking about is finding an alternate place to put these, back, sides, etc. I do have the butt pack and canteen holder in place, so I'm kind of limited.

Any ideas? Experience?

Artful

December 17, 2005, 12:40

How about on your pack? are you using Molle? or just GI belt w/ suspenders?

Other thoughts would be like I see with some of the 3 gun crowd with drop leg mag pouches, Or see about a vest with movable gear and keep the belt for smaller stuff.

Got a picture of what you are wearing when loaded up?

rgkeller

December 17, 2005, 22:01

Came on this site to learn something about the FAL and came upon this thread. My experience goes back several decades into the LBE and ALICE ruck era. No vests back in those ancient times.

I do remember vividly trying to disappear into the ground when incoming showed up unexpectedly. My units SOP for a patrol load out had nothing on the chest or the front of the hips - except a small pouch holding the large bandage everyone carried.

It would seem to me that the bulky magazine and other pouches carried on the chest would make it difficult to get into a really really deep prone position at the times when such a position would be very helpful to maintaining one's combat capability.

Or am I missing something and should chuck the old belt and suspenders set up from back in the day?

firefuzz

December 17, 2005, 22:09

I used the old style 'H' suspenders and pistol belt when I was in the Army. I tried a vest and couldn't ever get used to it, too many miles with the other.

I'd say stay with what you are used to and know works for you.

New does not neccessarily mean better.

Rob

gunplumber

December 18, 2005, 12:46

Originally posted by Artful
How about on your pack? are you using Molle? or just GI belt w/ suspenders?

Other thoughts would be like I see with some of the 3 gun crowd with drop leg mag pouches, Or see about a vest with movable gear and keep the belt for smaller stuff.

Got a picture of what you are wearing when loaded up?

I suspect that the drop leg pouches are best for those not moving around too much. AC crew, swat teams, stuff like that.

20 miles through heavy brush and high humidity I suspect will leaves massive welts and infected sores where all that crap was fastened to the legs. At least, it did for me 20 years ago when I was ninja-warrior

Treborer

December 19, 2005, 19:55

Just read this somewhere, I'll paraphrase: If it takes a 3 round burst from an M4
to stop a man, that's 10 trigger pulls per 30 round mag.

If a 7.62 stops the fight with one shot, then you have 20 trigger pulls per mag.

Twice the effective firepower?

:p

goldenspurholderx2

December 20, 2005, 07:55

i think you should stick with whatever is comfortable for you. i'd prefer a chest harness right now because i spend a lot of time cramped in the back of a bradley fighting vehicle. during my first three years in the army i was a "light" scout for an infantry brigade in alaska and H suspenders where king with the pouches moved to the side of front and higher up on the waist as not to interfere with your poles while cross country skiing. leg drops kill my leg out here when i'm dismounted because it keeps slapping no matter how tight i think i get it.

Opie

December 20, 2005, 17:31

I re-read this thread, and am reminded of some things that the "uber mall ninja" said earlier...and please keep in mind that I'm not stirring shyte.

"I'm sure that GP is a dude who's BTDT and all - but so was my grandad. You know what he could teach you about modern warfare?
Nada."

GP is still here to tell us about it, and so is your granddad. I'd say that they've both have at least one thing to teach you: Surviving. They did so, and in far worse conditions then today. I'm willing to bet that your Granddad is a wealth of knowledge on warfare. He's BTDT, and I'd listen if I were you; I sure listened to my Grandfather when he was alive. Not a whole lot has changed in regards to tactics....just equipment and technology.

Is all the new equipment and Technology superior? In some things, yes. In other cases, no. Take a look at Afghanistan; The "uber sooper-dooper M-4" is not filling the bill in regards to range. What is you ask? the "obsolete" M-14 is proving that it is more then up to that particular task. Just because it isn't brand-new doesn't mean that it doesn't work. I'd personally choose an "obsolete" rifle that can hit much farther then the new gee-whiz guns that are out there any day.

This is not meant as a flame, or anything of that nature. It is just an observation. Ronin, I wish you luck in your up-coming career and strongly urge you to listen to your NCO's; I will bet that most of them have BTDT, and they have real-world knowledge. Don't discount something because it's old; an "obsolete" bolt-action rifle more then likely outranges the M-4/M-16 that you'll probably be packing. Good Luck to you.

CAG100

January 05, 2006, 20:24

This is indeed a good thread with lots of revelent info! :bow:

I have never received any real training in ground tactics, other then escape/evasion, so I have no real world knowledge or experience in this, other then commonsense and what I have read mixed with a very small amount of experience.

I'd like to ask, what is a recommended load to carry in (and attached to) a smaller patrol pack (w/100oz hydration) for a combat load, for running day and night patrols out from a base camp, leaving the larger rucksack, with the main supplies, behind at the camp (assume the patrols to occur daily at various times of the year)...

Just off the top of my head, perhaps...

Medical Kit
Extra Ammo
Extra Rations
Extra Canteen
Night Vision Unit (for night patrols)
Entrenching Tool
Parachute Flares (for night patrols)
Pair of Binoculars (for day patrols)
Small Cleaning Kit
Elevation/Area Map
550 Parachute Cord
Water Purification Pills
Smoke/CS Grenade(s?)
Several Empty Sandbags

To much? To little? Impractical? Any feedback from any of you is most welcome.

101AASLT

January 05, 2006, 22:24

Nothing wrong with the M4/M16, civvies arnt limited to FMJs, HPs are awesome in an AR.

gunplumber

January 06, 2006, 09:55

It doesn't even have to be me - Heck, like I WANT more work?

But right now if John Doe starts a wonderful thread with thousands of contributers, then John Doe can still delete the whole thing - losing the collective contributions of hundreds of folks.

But if there is a new persona invented - which I suggest to be an Icon of a dictionary style book with "FAL FILES REFERENCE" as the title, then all the sticky's can be attributed to that persona. Nobody can delete it, and anyone wanting to brose the reference section can search on that user name.

Thus there is an awesome thread on fal thread pitches like Derek started last year, instead of 50 posts each with a small contribution, it can be a single post with all of the data listed in a a logical manner. The end of the post can include a list of contributers to that data.

Finally, since the organizing is done under the name " Fal Files Reference" we would be dealing with a persona who does not engage in discussions or debates, so remains a "neutral" party.

I did it before when Jen had me cleaning up HKWeaponsystems.com as a moderator years ago - seemed to work pretty well at the time.

medicman

January 06, 2006, 10:29

Originally posted by rgkeller
Came on this site to learn something about the FAL and came upon this thread. My experience goes back several decades into the LBE and ALICE ruck era. No vests back in those ancient times.

I do remember vividly trying to disappear into the ground when incoming showed up unexpectedly. My units SOP for a patrol load out had nothing on the chest or the front of the hips - except a small pouch holding the large bandage everyone carried.

It would seem to me that the bulky magazine and other pouches carried on the chest would make it difficult to get into a really really deep prone position at the times when such a position would be very helpful to maintaining one's combat capability.

Or am I missing something and should chuck the old belt and suspenders set up from back in the day?

I don't think you are missing anything at all. I'm not HSLD like the " mall ninja", I use a tt mav 2 piece because of the ability to open it up and "become one with the dirt" for lack of better terms.

gunplumber

January 06, 2006, 10:49

Originally posted by medicman

I don't think you are missing anything at all. I'm not HSLD like the " mall ninja", I use a tt mav 2 piece because of the ability to open it up and "become one with the dirt" for lack of better terms.

In George's "Shots fired in Anger" about the Japs on guadalcanal, he had a very positive analysis of their load carrying gear - that the cartridge boxes could be rotated outweard to avail a lower prone position.

The earth is your friend. And a few inches can make the difference between annoyance and ventilation.

mr fixit

January 06, 2006, 11:26

Originally posted by gunplumber
It doesn't even have to be me - Heck, like I WANT more work?

But right now if John Doe starts a wonderful thread with thousands of contributers, then John Doe can still delete the whole thing - losing the collective contributions of hundreds of folks.

But if there is a new persona invented - which I suggest to be an Icon of a dictionary style book with "FAL FILES REFERENCE" as the title, then all the sticky's can be attributed to that persona. Nobody can delete it, and anyone wanting to brose the reference section can search on that user name.

Thus there is an awesome thread on fal thread pitches like Derek started last year, instead of 50 posts each with a small contribution, it can be a single post with all of the data listed in a a logical manner. The end of the post can include a list of contributers to that data.

Finally, since the organizing is done under the name " Fal Files Reference" we would be dealing with a persona who does not engage in discussions or debates, so remains a "neutral" party.

I did it before when Jen had me cleaning up HKWeaponsystems.com as a moderator years ago - seemed to work pretty well at the time.

Since I am the "John Doe" in question here, I will state that I will not delete this thread. It has changed greatly from what I origianlly intended, but it has a wealth of info in it regardless.

My question to Mark, and others if they know, can I as the auther do what Mark is talking about? Can the auther "edit" the thread?

Scott

gunplumber

January 06, 2006, 11:44

Originally posted by mr fixit
My question to Mark, and others if they know, can I as the auther do what Mark is talking about? Can the auther "edit" the thread?
Scott

You can only delete and/or edit your own posts. If the thread starter deletes the first message of the thread, the entire thread gets deleted.

Willard

January 06, 2006, 15:04

Originally posted by Rawles

Viewed another way, the load should not exceed 30 percent of a person’s body weight when carrying an approach march load. Dean’s team weighed and photographed troops at every level, from wearing only their basic uniforms and boots to what they carried for their emergency approach march loads for 29 different positions in rifle companies. [/B]

You know, my equipment was weighed and photographed for that study in 1988 when my Bn was deployed to Fort Chafee, Ark for JRTC (since moved to Ft Polk LA) My LBE weighed something in the area of 40 pounds sans M-60. My ruck was over 80 pounds as I recall. The folks weighing everything were constantly talking about howmuch everyhting weighed when they were struggling to get it up in the hook to weigh it. They did weigh a sample of everyone-SAW gunner, rifleman, grenadier, RTO, etc.

This is the first time Ive seen any of the results.

Leg pouches, as GP has said, generally beat the hell out your legs if you are walking much in them. The leg panels with kevlar are a great idea, though. I know of at least wo folks who may be alive if they had them.

A lot of what you can carry depends upon your conditioning. As a young fit fellow I still sufferred from back and shoulder paing while humping heavy loads. Also, if you are the Alpha male of a family unit humping a ton of stuff, you will not be hyper alert and vigilant after a few days.

For me my camping pack, a chest pouch with 8 FAL mags, and one in the rifle is enough. I have an old single shot boys .22 that breaks down on the outside of the pack with a few hundred .22's. No .45 or Glock. Couple of bandoleers in the pack for the FAL.

Also, I did see a while back that the Ranger Regt was using ammunition carts to carry 120mm mortar ammo-the mortars have wheels and they were pushing/pulling the mortars on a road march, too. They looked a lot like the old WWII ammo carts.

Mark, are the two books you have referenced available that you know of? I haven't seen them around-that would be the "With Ordinance to the Front" and the jungle lessons. Thanks.

Blackhawk chest rig, holds eight FAL mags. I can wear this under my backpack, I shot practical rifle matches with it on, I like it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/willardri/FALbestChest.jpg

AR pouch rig. This is more of a sustainment-BO kit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/willardri/KitnCARopen.jpg

My old school LBE I used to wear in the Army. I have trained with this worn over a chest rig, so you can dump the LBE and shoot in just the chest deal...Still feels like an old friend when I put it on-although I don't know when I took off the H suspenders and put those Y ones one.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v458/willardri/LBE.jpg