Body Armour

[ephv]

My wife and I were watching the mess and anarchy in New Orleans when she heard about the looting and gunfire. She asked if we need to have body armour in our emergency supplies? (I love that woman) It is a question that begs an answer when you see how citizens act when their sugar teat is severed.

I am looking into the sources now to find out what is practicle. Anyone know of a good source of civilian practicle armour?

[raeldridge]

maybe not a bad idea, but...

the military stuff (not the high end interceptor stuff that you can't afford anyway) is only designed for fragments

don't buy *any* of that stuff at the gunshows

you may not be able to buy new, I think a lot of companies will only sell if you have ID or department letterhead

there's a tonne of vests on eBay, but find out how long they've been worn! sweat, UV, etc., break them down

they're a pain to get on in a hurry. if you're expecting troubles, you may be wearing all the time. safariland, last I recall made a nylon/cordura vest you could slip the inserts into, that might work better for your use.

the best available (IIIa) is only going to stop most pistol rounds

I've worn one in one of my jobs...some small experience on the subject.

[ephv]

Good advice-- thanks

[jaykden]

can anyone buy the plates that you insert? or just LE and military?

[Sayeret Tzanhanim]

It seems to me that body armor would be just another item to keep track of. If you really feel its necessary, look around the net for an inexpensive plate carrier. Don't blow 350 bucks for a HSGI Molle rig or a Callahan. Tactical tailor has some good stuff. Next, you can shop around for ceramic plates but you're going to pay big bucks. You could fabricate some steel plates yourself but I think they would only be effective against most types of pistol rounds.
I do know that body armor is one of those things - like a gun - if you need it, you damn sure need it.
You should assess the threat for your own particular circumstances and then decide how much you want to spend
ST

[ephv]

can anyone buy the plates that you insert? or just LE and military?


I received a magazine a couple of months ago that listed the plates for sale. I cannot remember the name of the mag. I'll go back through my pile of old editions and see if I can find it.

[gman552]

No personal experience, but I've heard they're pretty good:

BulletProofMe.com (http://www.bulletproofme.com/)

[ftierson]

Most places "allow" civilians to purchase and possess body armor (big of them, isn't it?)

Realistically, probably a IIIA protection level is the best compromise for most of us. Full tactical armor is available (and will stop full power rifle rounds), but it's quite expensive.

Avoid some of the more "modern" wonder fabrics that are turning out not to be up to snuff and buy a kevlar vest (with trauma plate for the chest). Looking around (see even advertisements in SGN) should turn up a IIIA vest for around $400/500.

Body armor that will really stop something is somewhat uncomfortable to wear, and perspiration degrades the kevlar. Make sure that you get stuff that allows the kevlar panels to be separated from the carrier (to allow the carrier to be washed). When worn daily, body armor should be replaced every few years (many use five years as a lifespan, but that's probably really too long). If you keep the new (never worn) armor boxed up and stored (out of the UV) for an "emergency," it will last considerably longer (although there will still be some gradual degradation).

And, as Gary says, order at least a size bigger than you would normally think, even if not worrying about "expansion" in later life :). My experience is that the sizes are always smaller than claimed...

Not that I have any experience with body armor, of course...

Forrest

[groovyrascal]

I have bought from this company many times:

Here ya go: http://www.galls.com/category2.html?assort=general_catalog&cat=2992

[raeldridge]

Galls has always been good for one-stop shopping, but they've also always been pricey.

when I bought my vest, these folks:

http://www.streichers.com/

beat them by almost a hundred bucks on the same vest, plus I got an extra carrier and a trauma plate.

here's their vests:

http://www.streichers.com/catalog/categories/index.cfm?action=view_category&cat_id=15

I see Safariland is still making their carrier, BUT $170!!! looks like it would be easier to get mama's sewing machine out.

[groovyrascal]

Yes Streicher's is better price wise. I go there as well. They have a shop just outside MPLS. Galls does seem to have a better selection on some stuff. Streichers, since they deal ALOT with local LE contracts sometimes can get touchy about who they sell to.

Regards.

[FLIP SIDE]

E-BAY , go to "everything else" them "body armor"
FS

[dwkennedy]

Steel rifle (level III) plates are about 10 lbs. each. If you want one front and back, that's 20 pounds... plus with steel you'll need a kevlar vest underneath, just for the spalling. Then consider they areas they don't cover... your arms, head, neck, sides, legs, lower torso. Unless you know you're walking in to a firefight, I think you could find 20+ lbs. of something more immediately practical to carry with you.

On the other hand, steel plates are more durable than ceramic and are dirt cheap second hand, as a lot of swat teams have been trading them in for ceramic.

[0007]

009.5 here sell the makings for vests if you want to roll your own. Also you can use the stuff to do things like pad briefcases and such-like. He occsionally has titanium plates as well. Good guy to deal with.

[Farmer from Hell]

A vest along with black sweat shirt and pants is also handy for the unwanted guest at O-dark 30. A guy in an all black suit is pretty hard to pick out when its not your house your poking around. Also remember to have an extra pair of shoes in the BR.

It say anything more then for handgun caliber round is over kill. Most likely any goblins encountered in a lawless situation will be armed with a HG.

FfH

[Eclipse]

If you plan to buy surplus or second hand from ebay - make sure it's not a Zylon fiber vest. Lot of places are unloading defective vests on unsuspecting buyers since there is a known issue with that fiber.

http://www.secondchance.com/zylon.asp

[Havoc]

The NIJ has decertified ALL vests containing zylon regardless of manufacturer. Vests made from or containing laminates like Spectra should also be avoided because they can fail with contact shots. Kevlar has a proven track record and is the only way to go.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

TFL

[AGC]

Sweat won't hurt kevlar. It will make it very unpleasant to wear, especially if it's a used vest and someone else's sweat stink.

Soaking wet, kevlar loses some of its bullet resistance, but regains it completely when it dries.

What will hurt kevlar are chemicals like bleach and exposure to ultraviolet light (sunlight).

The age issue is largely a CYA measure on the part of the manufacturers. Older vests are also vests that are more likely to have been exposed to bleach, sunlight and so forth. A 5 year old vest that spent that time in a cool dry storage place is going be as effective as a brand new one. Even a 15 or 20 year old vest will have lost little effectiveness if it has not been abused.

Zylon degrades very rapidly on exposure to the atmosphere. It is not suitable for use in armor. At least one police officer has been killed by a bullet penetrating a Zylon vest that should have stopped it.

People have been discussing police-style concealable vests, but I think a good case can be made for military body armor.

The PASGT military vests are widely and cheaply available currently, due to the adoption of the "Interceptor" vest with SAPI plates. The PASGT is not NIJ rated for bullet resistance, but will stop many handgun bullets and shotgun pellets. It also provides protection to much more of the body than concealable vests. Its greatest shortcoming is the lack of provision for adding a hard plate, but plate carriers are available that can be worn with the PASGT to allow the use of a SAPI plate. This will upgrade the protection well beyond that of any concealable vest, over almost as much of the torso as a concealable vest, while still providing significant protection to much of the rest of the upper body.

I think use of a SAPI plate is well worth considering. Any widespread looting is likely to put a lot of rifles in the hands of bad guys. Weight is not a significant issue here: we're talking about fairly static defensive positions, not long range patrolling.

The use of a PASGT (kevlar) helmet is also worth considering for this purpose. Both for the protection it provides (they will stop many handgun bullets and soldiers have survived hits from rifles on occasion), and for the intimidation factor.

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

AGC:

Would you be willing to use the words that the acronyms stand for? NIJ? SAPI? PASGT?



(CYA is self explanitory)

[dwkennedy]

PASGT = personal armor system, ground troops
SAPI = small arms protective insert
NIJ = national institute of justice (came up with the body armor rating system, IIA, II, IIIA, III, etc. Keep in mind 'A'means ain't as good, i.e. IIA vest isn't as good as a level II vest.)

[Hebrew Battle Rifle]

Thank you sir.

[whirlibird]

As someone who has spent more hours in a vest than I'd like to consider, every hour on duty, I don't mind sharing an opinion or two.

Try several brands and styles on. Fit is more important than cost.

Everybody has their own thoughts on fit, some like the panels to meet or overlap on the sides, others prefer an inch or so gap. Me I prefer the gap, it allows for easier movement. One thought for those who recommend getting a larger vest than fits now, if it hits the fan are you really going to be eating well enough to put on weight? Me I'm probably going to be losing weight doe to an increased workload and increased physical activities. If your vest is already too big, you're gonna float in it.

Yes, there are vests that stop rifle fire, they cost a mint and weigh a ton figuratively. Stick with a conventional level II or IIa, they're light enough to wear 24/7. Hopefully you get a model that's comfortable too.

Now that Armor Holdings has picked up Second Chance, we can expect good things again from Second Chance. Can I say that I'm a fan of SC? Yes! After trying all the name brands, a friend owns a police supply house, I spent my own cash and bought the top of the line Second Chance Monarch vest. Not bad, I miss my Zylon Ultima, now there was a comfy vest and light easy to wear, I'd actually forget that I was wearing it.

And yes part of the reason that vests are replaced after 5 years is that the sweat can promote growth of molds and mildews in the vest that can degrade the effectiveness of the vest. And they smell terrible!

I got to test a 5+ year old American Body Armor Extreme level 2 vest about a year or so back. It was an altogether unrealistic test unless your luck is just so bad. Both front and rear panels were set up against the dirt berm at the range. (No 'give') I then proceeded to put 25 rounds into each panel. That's 50 rounds into one vest. The ammo? Federal .45 ACP hardball at 5 feet.
The only consideration I gave the vest was to smooth the fabric down every two rounds and pull the spent bullets out when I could. We were trying to save as many as possible for examples. No rounds were "stacked" on top of each other but with each successive round the vest became "weaker".

Despite this, not one round penetrated more than 6 layers.

After all 50 rounds were recovered I replaced the front panel on the berm and pulled out my 6" Python. I fired 6 rounds of Federal 125gr JHP's into a 2" area directly in the center of the vest. All 6 were stopped and captured by the vest. Neat crosshatching pattern on the front of the mushroomed bullets also.

All this from a 5+ y.o. vest that absolutely reeked of sweat and cigarette smoke.

We are planning a similar experiment with the Winchester 9mm +P+ Ranger ammo in the future, when another used vest becomes available. The Ranger is reportedly the hardest issue ammunition to stop right now. That's ignoring the old Finnish (Swedish?) WWII vintage steel jacketed stuff, kinda hard to find.

Maybe it's just me, there's a couple of things I won't hesitate to buy the best models of. And vests are one of them. It's cheap life insurance even at $1000 each, every 5 years. And yes if you aren't wearing them daily they will last longer than that.

[shogan]

$1000 in-VEST-ment beats $100,000 plus chest surgery if you make it to the OR!

[Enquiring Minds]

Anyone make a Kevlar codpiece? Our ancestors knew to armor the jewels, but we seem to have forgotten. :D I'm thinking under clothing, a la athletic cup, but you could also go external, and have that baby emblazoned with the family crest... or rent ad space.

[chico80x]

I was listening to the radio the other day and there was an article on a company called "SECOND CHANCE VESTS" that provided vests to local police departments, the CIA, and even the President. It turns out that they were using sub-standard materials in their vests and two police officers were fatally shot as a result of bullets penetrating. Soon after the CIA preformed some tests on these vests and determined that the materials were degrading at a fast rate and thats what caused the vests to fail. So whatever you do, don't buy any vests from Second Chance.

[whirlibird]

Second Chance was the victim of a faulty product they were supplied by the manufacturer of XYLON fabric, Toyoba. It wasn't the CIA that performed the tests, it was the NIJ and the manufacturers that were using Xylon and Second Chance wasn't the only one.
The original problem was found after a copper took a .40 S&W in the belly through his vest. He probably was still saved by the vest as it did slow the bullet down, it just didn't capture it.

Before we start running down manufacturers who have given us the ability to defend ourselves lets do a bit more research into the facts of the situations and not just listen to rumors and bullsplatter.

For your information check this out.
http://www.secondchance.com/tri-flex.asp

Me I'll stick with Second Chance, my ass is worth it, is yours? What are you wearing?

[AGC]

Zylon is bad stuff. It has no place in body armor.

Second Chance was, at one time, a well respected company, one that deserves credit for the introduction of body armor that was wearable on a routine basis, and that has saved thousands of lives.

Unfortunately, Second Chance failed to do the right thing when they found out about Zylon's failings. Their bankruptcy is a direct result of this.

Some info on Zylon, and some rants:

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/02/21/news/top_stories/22005194524.txt

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/tactical/body-armor/press-releases/69617/

http://www.policeone.com/police-products/tactical/body-armor/press-releases/90565/

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=5;t=000401

[mparrish]

Second Chance was a victim of its own greediness and arrogance (www.tacticalforums.com). It's all moot now as SC non-Zylon related assets and liabilities are owned by Armor Holdings, the monolithic body armor maker (like a freaking vacuum, sucking up everything into it's company). Yes, Rich Davis is starting a new company but I am not holding my breath. He is tainted indefinitely.

I did the research, verbally wrestled with some of the top people in the business and in the end, everyone had to admit that for body armor use, among other things, ZYLON of Toyobo failed. I've been wearing soft body armor (SBA) for over ten years, day in and out. Comfort is one thing. The ability to stop the rounds it is rated for based on flawed NIJ protocols is another. Zylon had potential. Perhaps there will be a vastly improved Zylon like fiber without the issues of Zylon. It had great potential.

Presently, I am wearing a level IIIA ALL ARAMID fiber (Kevlar) vest for patrol. It's a bit thick but the trade-off is that I get a vest I have confidence in and also serves to lessen blunt force trauma (also a side benefit from SBA) from object strikes.

In the end, get a vest that is at least a level II or higher, that wraps on the sides (overlaps), has a removeable cover for washing, that is new (forget the funky old vests that used to be sold at gunshows and the like) and fits to YOUR torso. It will be money well spent if that is what you want. Buy once every five years and buy quality. Understand the limitations of your vest: it is not bulletproof, just bullet resistant.

[whirlibird]

Not to insult or argue with anybody but Second Chance did send out information to all warranted owners of Zylon vests. We were offered a trade-in on a new vest and a healthy and I do mean healthy discount on a new vest.
So I traded in a 4+yo Zylon vest for a new vest with a little boot thrown in on top. For the money I came out on top. Considering the discount, the cost of the new vest and the time the old vest was worn it actually ended up being a free new vest and a free year of wear on the old one. I ain't gonna complain.

Me, I'll follow Richard Davis to his new company. He has 30+ years of experience, the knowledge and the drive to make it work all over again.

As for the differences in fitting, to each his or her own.

Buy the best you can afford, wear it and live to fight another day.

[shogan]

Need help in identification.
Just acquired MilSpec kevlar vest. MFG date 2000. It has an OD shell with full front and back panels. The vest Velcros on both sides overlapping as well as having two standard elastic bands ea. side that secure to the front. The shoulder sections are overlaped and also have elastic bands that Velcro to the front. There is also a large Velcro front panel with a 14 inch shallow pocket at the bottom that looks like it is designed to take an enclosed SAPI plate. The kevlar armor is about one inch thick! This is not the light weight tanker vest. Looks like IIIA level stuff.
I'm going to try to get a photo up on this tonight.

[Treborer]

Not a flame , just thankful for high technology, so to contrast how far we've come:

[MD3C]

I think it was a Point Blank "Beast" I wore for several "excursions" and I truely wish I could find one or one like it for personal use. I now have a Safariland vest that I'm not at all impressed with. Easy to wear, comfortable? yes but it just doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies.
M

[justashooter]

Originally posted by Enquiring Minds
Anyone make a Kevlar codpiece? Our ancestors knew to armor the jewels, but we seem to have forgotten. :D I'm thinking under clothing, a la athletic cup, but you could also go external, and have that baby emblazoned with the family crest... or rent ad space.

everybody knows that center of chest is no good in a serious situation, unless you are dealing with amatures. the crotch shot is what you want to practice. femoral arteries, pelvic cradle... put anybody down fast.

[Sayeret Tzanhanim]

the crotch shot is what you want to practice. femoral arteries, pelvic cradle... put anybody down fast.
I would say the "terminal T" an area app. four inches wide at the eyes extending down to the sacrum will suffice at any distance within the weapon effective range. In that area, you have the Central Nervous System and all those pulmonary goodies like the heart, vena cava and aorta. Massive blood loss and massive cognitive interruption is what your looking for.
Having said that, there is a great benefit to going low when within in grappling distance: A string of shots as fast as you can pull the trigger in the pelvic girdle will put ANYONE down because of the femoral arteries and the mechanical function of the bones involved. In the longer short term, the Iliac Crest is chock full of blood and will diminsh capacity, as well.
And there is the CNS - 'nuff said.
The branch where the Descending Aorta and the Inferior Vena cava is just above the navel. A few rounds there will produce massive internal bleeding
One thing to keep in mind that there are garuantees that any one bullet aside from a fifty (pretty 100% money-back on that one) will instantly drop someone but these are areas of the body that maximize your success.
For years, myself and the ones who trained me (one 18D in particular who had an arcane and diabolical knowledge of destroying whatever he was trained to fix) have spray-painted a "T" shape on whatever targets we used (IPSC, wood, whatever) to narrow that shot placement.
That is where an EOTech becomes so important, but I digress...

[delo1283]

THE INTERCEPTER BODY ARMOR IS HARD TO FIND BUT IT IS THE BEST OUT THERE ..BEFORE MY UNIT WENT TO IRAQ SOME OF US BOUGHT OUR OWN INTERCEPTER BODY ARMOR PLUS SAPI PLATES IT COST US 1700.00 FOR THE SET THAT WAS WITH MILITARY DISCOUNT THEN WHEN WE GOT OVER THERE THEY GAVE US OUR SET ....WE BOUGHT OURS BECAUSE WE WERE TOLD THAT WE WOULD NOT BE GETTING THEM RIGHT AQAY WHEN WE GOT THERE ....SO NOW I HAVE A VEST AND PLATES JUST SITTING HERE ....LET ME TELL YOU I HAVE SEEN THAT VEST STOP A SNIPER ROUND RIGHT TO THE CHEST ...

[Rawles]

Body armor is definitely a must if you are serious about survival.

The best body armor is the kind that gets worn every day. A level 4 vest with heavy inserts is *worthless* if it is hanging in your closet--because it is too heavy to wear day-to-day.

My recommended approach for well-prepared civilians is to buy TWO used Level II vests, one slightly larger than the other. That is what I did. I wear one whenever I visit the Big City. The second one is in reserve, for whenever the balloon goes up. In really bad times, I plan to wear one over the other, for better than Class III protection.

Try BulletProofMe.com or Y2KBodyArmor.com. (Both are reputable firms.) The latter specializes in low-mileage vests from police academy wash-outs. These sell for HALF of the retail price, and are almost like new. See the links at my SurvivalBlog.com website.

[BUFF]

I bought a then-state-of-the-art Second Chance Y Model level II vest when I was hired as a new deputy in 1981. I wore it religiously for about 10 years, then replaced it with another one. I bought one of the Zylon Second Chance Monarchs in 2002, then had it replaced by Second Chance when the Zylon trouble was discovered.

I took my 1981 vest to the range a couple of years ago, along with a foam torso dummy. I shot it with several handguns including a 6" .357 with 125 grain jhp ammo. It stopped all of it.

Yes, they can degrade exposed to sunlight continuously, but if cleaned with the correct chemicals, even the Kevlar panels can be kept clean safely. You nust gotta have a dry cleaner you can trust!

I found the public dealt better with me if I didn't come to their home smelling like an old gym sock.

[fusalautoleger]

i liked my pointblank vest as that it was giving too me for free..it was some whatstiff to whare but it made feel secure knowing i had it on ..i wasnt bullit proof but it gave me a chance that i would not of had with out it.. full side protecting as well i drove a cab in ny at the time ..i have an idea about flexable cermet..as i wrote apaper in collage on its pros and cons.. and at the time i had ascess to ti. for a community collage we had a very substancale sci-tec program with suport from manufacturers.. we even had hienzs metal to play with ..its good to be a machinest/ manufactering engineer

[Da Nerd]

Forget the body armour forget the trauma plates and forget guns an ammo.
Uncle Sugar now has FEMA who will take care of you no matter what.

[101AASLT]

Actually IBA interceptor body armor is affordable. The Army surplus store outside FT.Lewis, WA has the vest minus plates for $250.00. They even have plates for $200 ea. so all told $650.oo for a fully outfitted vest and most of it is new.

[MarkG]

009.5 here sell the makings for vests if you want to roll your own. Also you can use the stuff to do things like pad briefcases and such-like. He occsionally has titanium plates as well. Good guy to deal with. Does this guy have a website?

I saw a few places that sell the interceptor armor, but they all sell it to LEO/Military ONLY! :mad: I dont believe in selling anything to the government and not the rest of us. I would like to get a set of something like that for a completel breakdown scenario, and a level II or IIIA vest for wear in slightly less bleak scenarios.

[Havoc]

I would like to get a set of something like that for a completel breakdown scenario, and a level II or IIIA vest for wear in slightly less bleak scenarios.

The most practical solution would be a concealable IIIA vest and a seperate plate carrier that can be worn over that should the need arise.

[Hawkeye1]

For times when concealing my armor is not a concern, I like my Eagle Plate carrier. With Level 3+ stand alone plates, it gives me a good balance of weight vs. protection. I have an old concealable kevlar vest with a small trauma plate for more covert use, but I really need to get a new one as I am afraid to wear this one. Its 10 years old and I just dont trust the kevlar in it. Here is my Eagle PC. Currently revamping my mag pouches and such on it. As a note, I could run it somewhat discreetly under a BDU top or jacket if I needed to with the pouches removed.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Gear/Platecarrier2.jpg

[jrayborn]

I've been watching ebay for a while now and have seen that an average price for a level 3A is just over $100. Now I'm not even going to get into the discussion about buyer beware etc, but for prices like that its a lot more affordable than I would have guessed. In fact I just received a level 2 PACA with steel trauma plate and 2 carriers for $78 plus $15 shipping.

Granted its 7 years old, but its in seriously excellent condition. Much better condition than the issue flak vest I had in the service. That style of vest was rated for fragments only but I have seen it stop .45 and .357.

Anyway I suppose what I'm getting at is that if you are on a budget (like me) then body armor is a possibility. In fact until now I thought it was cost prohibitive. Thats simply not true.


Jon

[Artful]

Originally posted by 101AASLT
Actually IBA interceptor body armor is affordable. The Army surplus store outside FT.Lewis, WA has the vest minus plates for $250.00. They even have plates for $200 ea. so all told $650.oo for a fully outfitted vest and most of it is new.

Does this store have a name or better a website?:biggrin:

[GIshooter]

WARNING!! Artful, beware of Interceptor/ SPEAR milspec body armor tht shows up for sale in any of the civilian surplus shops around military bases. I personally know of a DOD investigation around the Fort Bragg area. I'd beware of mil-spec armor on E-bay as well. Everyone of these vests has a lot/serial number.

[stargazer]

I wasn't in the market for a "bulletproof" vest but I happened upon one that I could just not turn away from and purchased it. Wasn't sure of the rating as it was sold as a "fragmentation" type vest and even if it was only a "frag" vest, the price was worth it. :)

.http://home.comcast.net/~cetme/Vest1.jpg

Dudes, I lucked out big time! :D Tapco ran these on their web site for only one weeks time and I just happened to be visiting that week. I purchased a vest that would cost around $1K to replace for $70. Yes, Seventy dollars. This is a military type of vest with neck and shoulder protection. When worn the front actually ends up with two layers in the front over the vital areas. It is German surplus and yes it reeked of sweat when purchased. A soak in Woolite in the tub in a few inches of water a couple of times followed by several good water rinses left it smelling clean again with no damage to the kevlar. Vest has a label inside that claims what it will stop. Ratings are right along with threat level IIIA. This vest is huge! There's enough Kevlar in this sucker to make (3) police chest vests! My main use for it will be to wrap the wife and dog in it in case of tornado. If the dog and wife were balled up on the ground together this vest would cover 3/4 of them for sure.

http://home.comcast.net/~cetme/Label1.jpg


Some preach that old vests are no good for use as they were when new. Bullshit...! That rumor was started by the makers of vests to make sure ever so often police departments would re-order. Kevlar does degrade in sunlight and certain chemicals will hasten it's degration too. But these vests are covered folks and not in direct sunlight. And I know of no one who "bleaches" their BP vests to clean them? I put this vest on a log and from 6 feet away shot a .357 Magnum round at it. Only penetrated a few layers and stopped. Others have run similar tests on their old police vests and contrary to what the makers say, it still stops the same stuff it did when new.

[Hawkeye1]

Congrats on the purchase. I have to ask though, are you sure its German? Looks like British DPM to me.

[AGC]

Does look like DPM, and the tag is in English... I'd guess British Army surplus?

But a good point is made: "neck and shoulder protection" (and more torso protection than most concealable vests). In a situation where there is no medical assistance on call, even a minor normally survivable hit can be fatal. The more of the body that is protected from the most likely threats---handgun bullets and shotgun pellets---the more likely the wearer is to survive and to be able to continue to defend his home and family.

There's certainly a place/role for the police-type concealable vests, but once "the balloon has gone up" there is a lot to be said for non-concealed armor, to include helmets. At that point, not only is the risk of being shot---and thus the need for effective armor---much higher, but there is a much greater role for overt intimidation of bad guys. The psychological effects of defenders wearing obvious armor vests and helmets should not be underestimated. Convincing bad guys to go away without shots being fired is not a bad thing at all...

[stargazer]

It has two other labels inside as well that are in German. One is like a name tag for the wearer and the other looks like a care and use label in German. Made in England and sold to Germany perhaps?

[BlackCat]

All the German fragment vests I've seen are Flektarn. Weird.

[mparrish]

There is at least two German soft body armor makers. One was testing, then eventually refusing to use Zylon. I'll have to look at my notes for a name.

[stargazer]

Label says " Tetranike Armour Systems". With the weight it has I would defintely say this is made with Kevlar. Sure stopped that .357 fast.

[Geist762]

I have some IIa Second Chance armor w/camo covers that I'll sell for $75.
If someone wants to use it to ballistic test.

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/geist_technologies/detail?.dir=/mail&.dnm=98ddscd.jpg&.src=ph

I also have an interesting piece of vietnam hard armor made in '68, that is non metallic. Either ceramic or Lexan maybe? Says it's rated for 30 caliber ball.
It's hard as the hubs of hell, as Cummin's 4x4 says.

Here's it's link..
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/geist_technologies/detail?.dir=/mail&.dnm=4109scd.jpg&.src=ph

Here's the info panel on the hard armor.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/geist_technologies/detail?.dir=/mail&.dnm=b386scd.jpg&.src=ph

Found it at a gunshow about 10 years ago.
I use it between my III vest and my flack vest as a trauma plate. LOL.

[creator0203]

hey Hawkeye1, is that from tactical taylor?

[Hawkeye1]

Originally posted by creator0203
hey Hawkeye1, is that from tactical taylor?

Its an Eagle Plate Carrier w/cummerbund. The mag pouches on it in that pic are TT triple shingles. I have since replaced them with some TT single shingles and am reconfiguring it.