Lights Out : EMP weapons

[wyatt earp]

I'm sure most of you here are familar with the survival novel " Lights Out ".
Could it happen here ? Read the following about Irans plans to attack the US mainland (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1390468/posts)
Ask yourself, are you ready?

[JoeLad]

Ready? Definately not. I live in the city, things would be berry, berry bad here without electricity. Hell, we don't need the Iranians to do it, an overload on the NE grid would do the same thing. A nationwide blackout would be New Orleans on a grand scale, with the exception of no help coming.

JoeLad:D

['TUDE]

The panic which would result from finding that service could not be restored for months to years may be worse than the attack itself.

The average American being faced with mandatory "back to basics" would be psychologically catostrophic.

[jamesq]

if it's not the iranians; the poles could flip doing the same thing on a global scale. i think everyone with some sense should move to the country and learn to live on their own anyway..

[Powderfinger]

Originally posted by jamesq
if it's not the iranians; the poles could flip doing the same thing on a global scale. i think everyone with some sense should move to the country and learn to live on their own anyway..

If that happens, 800 mph winds for several days will destroy humanity so I refuse to prepare for that.:p

[g5]

EMP. Not at all cool. No energy, no gas, no water in city. Not at all cool.

[photomike]

Originally posted by wyatt earp
I'm sure most of you here are familar with the survival novel " Lights Out ".
Could it happen here ? Read the following about Irans plans to attack the US mainland (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1390468/posts)
Ask yourself, are you ready?

Can somebody point me in the right direction for this book? I cant seem to find it on the net.

thx,
Mike

[Bruce Allen]

This sounds a lot like the Y2K fears.

A whole lot.

Infrastructure damage would always have a cascade effect both up and down.

The only difference is the effect back up would be signifigantly longer than when it went down.

What was it said back in 1999 - 1 month down = 3 months getting back up?

[C2A1]

This has a very high probability of happening. I can't go into the details but where I work gets into this. Some facts:
Russia was the premier E-weapons folks. Manufactured EMP gernades and mortar rounds to take out com-links durning assults. A lot of these guys work in Iran and North Korea. Iranian missle tests lunch from freightors (Humm). Depending on the frequency used, the damage occurs either where the wires tap into the IC chip or you can actually cause arch over within the chip itself. What this means is that all chips are destroyed, even those not connected in the system. China has been buying large quanities of e-weapons.
Question is will 'they' use large ones or small ones directed at key targets. Can we ID those that use them? (NOT!).
There have been some studies as to what would happen. If let's say Korea used it's 4 devices lifted by thier current rockets and the electrons stopped, in a moments notice we would be in 1890. Recovery of basic systems (water, food delievery) would be 4-6 months. No fuel for farming. US casualities could be as high as 120 million from stravation. No drugs for at least 1 year except from Europe which could not supply enough. On and on.
Even a little one that you can carry would wipe out a big piece of the banking industry.
Read Curt Weldon's book, "State of Terror" for a little peek.
If e-weapons are used and NO is how americans react to disaster then God help us all.

[xtremerange]

Manufactured EMP gernades and mortar rounds

Please direct me to some literature on these munitions.

[jaykden]

Originally posted by Bruce Allen
This sounds a lot like the Y2K fears.

A whole lot.

Infrastructure damage would always have a cascade effect both up and down.

The only difference is the effect back up would be signifigantly longer than when it went down.

What was it said back in 1999 - 1 month down = 3 months getting back up?

bruce- seems to me it would be a whole lot worse than what Y2K mights done, with EMP every circuit would be fried, so no vehicles would run, nothing, absolutly nothing would work unless it was hardened. i even doubt alot of red dot scopes would work, we'd truly be in the stone age. it would make NOLA look like a cake walk

[Bruce Allen]

Not having given this topic a lot of serious thought, it does occur to me the only equipment that might withstand an emp is that made to military specs.

They consider nuclear war/battle in their designs, as far as I know, just for that reason.

It strikes me that fiber optics might also reduce the "emp effect" possibly by being a natural and unintended shield for not conducting an emp pulse.

What do you think?

[cycle_rcr]

Our country is big and disbursed. Banking systems are distributed and backed up. Knocking down a few financial centers would be a royal PITA but I don't believe it possible to deploy sufficient EMP weapons around the country to cause real harm. Electromagnetic energy is more or less radio waves. Radio waves lose intensity quickly as the distance from the source is increased. EMP destruction is really destruction of semiconductor junctions. This means the EM energy must get to the junction at a sufficient level to cause it to be destroyed.

Consider how poor cell phone reception is in a modern metal frame building. The metal acts as a shield against EM energy. Metallized films such as many window tints also act as shields.

I wouldn't worry too much about an EMP attack. But if someone is worried, grounded Aluminum foil will act as a shield against stray EM energy. :biggrin:

The real danger we as a country face is self inflicted economic crisis. Being too far extended.

[C2A1]

Just some notes:
Banking: All CCs go thru one facility, not to individual banks directly. FDIC codes go out once a day. It has been tried and the result was several $B in losses in a very poor attempt. (It was overseas).
Damage all depends on frequency and duration. The russians where very good at designing devices with very nice frequency spectrums. The small units are very good at penatration. There are technigues which will penatrate thru a ship hull. You can defeat a faraday cage defense. This is not imagined but test data.
Yes, the US is spread out compared to say Europe, that is why several devices must be used. As far as R squared is concerned, this is true but if you place the device at the right altitude and use the field lines to waveguide the electrons you get a good Rf source that is located 100miles from your target over a large area. As for the energy needed to disrupt systems, I have sat in the glass cockpit and watched instruments flick around as some dumb--s made a cell call from the rear john. ( true, the aluminum tube may have acted to waveguide that radiation but I was impressed. Corrective actions have been taken to minimize aircraft systems but it gets the point across.) (Also this makes you think about what you could do with a laptop, a correctly designed antenna, some digital software and a good battery. Anyone want to write a cheap novel). Also this distributed area also works against us as we have centralized our systems. For example: how much of our food is grown and processed locally. How many distribution centers are there? Stores mantain only a small inventory.
As for the military systems, over the last decade or so, a lot of systems are not protected because to protect them is to expensive. Given a general nuke generated pulse the airplanes will fly and ships and tanks will cruise around but they won't have fuel for long.
I'm not saying E-weapons will be the end of the world but they are one of the quickest, most economical and politically 'safe' weapons to critically damage the US.
This is an external threat, internal, I agree with the economic meltdown theory. I think this is more plausible and I think some folks outside are watching. One of my people here has reported banking moves to minimize damage done by China detacting the yen from the dollar and the movement of bonds held by the chinese.
Is anyone parnoid yet?

[habe]

Yeah.......

Thats all China needs. All the cash registers not working at every WalMart in the US. Who's going to buy their crap then? Or, is it a "I guess it really won't matter anyway" scenario?

habe

[g5]

C2A1, do you have a source for the Curt Weldon book you identified? I can't find it at ABE books which can usually turn up about anything.

Might the book be "Countdown to Terror"?

[C2A1]

Weldon Books has it so I would think Barnes and Noble should to. Curt Weldon is a congressman from Pa and was on the select Intell committee and is now on Homeland Defense. For interesting reading go to:
http://empcreport.ida.org
Once read, think NO.
As for China read Wall Steet Journal Sept 8,2005, front page, left column. Now mix.

[C2A1]

Walden Books. Light EMP pulse disrupted the neural connections.

[Pistolwiz]

Seems to me that an EMP burst over the US would be considered an act of war. In fact....... a nuclear attack. That would insure nuclear detonations over Iranian cities. But instead of 60 miles up it would be closer to 2,000 feet or so. We may be without services. But they would be crispy, yet tender. :skull:

[fire for effect]

I don't recall Emp being that serious in the Past.

[Cummins_4x4]

fire for effect this didn't use to be such a problem. Transportation would grind to a halt with new vehicles as most have a small chip controller. I keep a back up non computer controlled diesel engined truck just in case. Many many things are now chip controlled. Makes for a greater ease of operation but they are open to problems. See Faraday cages, some folks I know are building things surrounded by Faraday cages, we're talking big money folks who don't want to loose data or abilities.

[MTS]

Originally posted by cycle_rcr
Our country is big and disbursed. Banking systems are distributed and backed up. Knocking down a few financial centers would be a royal PITA but I don't believe it possible to deploy sufficient EMP weapons around the country to cause real harm. Electromagnetic energy is more or less radio waves. Radio waves lose intensity quickly as the distance from the source is increased. EMP destruction is really destruction of semiconductor junctions. This means the EM energy must get to the junction at a sufficient level to cause it to be destroyed.

Consider how poor cell phone reception is in a modern metal frame building. The metal acts as a shield against EM energy. Metallized films such as many window tints also act as shields.

I wouldn't worry too much about an EMP attack. But if someone is worried, grounded Aluminum foil will act as a shield against stray EM energy. :biggrin:

The real danger we as a country face is self inflicted economic crisis. Being too far extended.


True. Many critical systems use fiber optic or are otherwise protected.

[Treborer]

Very Local effects, and Iranian Sandniggers aren't in the club.

Don't sweat the petty stuff.

When a group of Men act like Responsible Men, we no longer attach offensive labels to them.

Very Simple, trade, be reasonable, and no one will bother you, we might even enjoy your participation in living.

:smile:

[Falfegnügen]

Originally posted by fire for effect
I don't recall Emp being that serious in the Past.

Exactly. Consider that over the past 60 years that many nuclear weapons detonations have been conducted in the atmosphere, and in space. Did anyone notice?

If you are very close to the detonation, then you may have a problem. But wiping out whole cities, states or countries with EMP? it's just not certian thing. Distance means everything. For the military, EMP is definitely a tactical concern, as you may be right there when the nukes detonate.

On the other hand, moving to the country is still not a bad idea :)

EDIT - Ok, maybe I'm understating the risk - Mainly this is my personal belief that if EMP could be created at the levels that some have theorized, then we would have already seen significant evidence of it. Such as failure AND destruction of telecommunications systems, power grids (yes, some were knocked-out in tests), and lastly - the Human evidence. Again my personal observations : If EMP were as powerful as some have theorized, wouldn't there be legions of shocked or dead soldiers and civilians, even Las Vegas residents, if EMP created that much received voltage?

I do agree with the experts that High-Altitude EMP might prove devastating to specific types of electronic systems. Systems with connectivity to unusually long conductors, like old-fashioned copper telephone lines, power grids, and radio antennas. But beyond that, I just don't believe EMP is the risk that many portray. I guess I could be wrong though, and that's the reason I find comfort in having a simple 4x4 that has zero semiconductors in it, one that can be started with a hand-crank, and will run on crappy fuels.

[John Culver]

EMP is VERY localised. and yes there are somethings you can do to help yourself.

Ground Ground Ground

1ft copper grid burried at 4 ft deep, with rods every 20ft or so, and connect EVERYTHING to it.

This is what they do at Dupont plants and seems to be very very effective for massive dischares (such as lightning hitting)

[FortunateSon]

this is a phenomenom the us has taken very seriously for the last 25yrs. it is not localized, if done properly. intel analysts were doing the jig when a mig defected and we were able to tear it apart in the early 80's. we were light years ahead of the soiviets they proclaimed! they were still using vaccuum tubes! then the elation faded when we realized that they were spending vast sums of money and had several "weather satellites" in straange orbits that in fact were strategically parked nuclear weapons. an act of war - most assuredly. the us government has made it known at the highest leveks that any detonation of an atomic weapon in space or any attack on our satellites would evoke mutually assured destruction. we spent billions on an elf (extremely low freq) comms system that could wistand a 50000volt burst and the soviets waited until completion and parked a few more in orbit that would exceed our thresholds at a fraction of the cost. the short story is that an atmospheric test in the 50's knocked out all power and comms in hawaii for a period of weeks and had everyone stumped until they figured out what happened. most scientists say that 4-6 satellites of proper kilotanage and geosynchrousness orbit placement would be all that was needed to completely shut down the us. this is not ytk fantasy. faraday cages to protect electronics and extremely specialized comms systems not available in mass production are the only ways known to defeat it. guess what are the most sensitive electronics to emp? electronic coputers and igniotion systems in your auto. instantaneous shutdown of cars all around you would likely be the first hint you will have of an emp attack, and the beginning of ww3.

[Falfegnügen]

- "the soiviets they proclaimed! they were still using vaccuum tubes!"

I believe that the final consensus on the use of the tubes in the older MIG-25 had little to do with EMP, but really was the result of the Soviet's lack of technology in the area of high-frequency semiconductors, such as in radar transmitters, etc. Not that hard to believe, especially if you've ever been to mother Russia. Even today, Tubes are often the preferred method to generate high-power microwaves, for example: microwave ovens.


- "we spent billions on an elf (extremely low freq) comms system that could wistand a 50000volt burst"

Those communications systems were specifically designed to allow high-reliability communications to submerged submarines, and not becuase they were resistant to EMP. ELF is used becuase it is about the only way to communicate (by radio), through several feet of water. The EMP issue arose because those radio systems, with thier hugely long antennas (many miles long), would likely be particularly sensitive to potential EMP. Quite the converse of the theory that they were ELF in order to resist EMP.


- "ignition systems in your auto. instantaneous shutdown of cars all around you would likely be the first hint you will have of an emp attack, and the beginning of ww3."

I find exception with this too. My experience has been that automobile ignition systems tend to be particularly resistant to high-voltage transients. I mean that's what they do; make high voltage EMP's for the spark plugs! Now on the other hand, Vehicular control computers, such as engine management, vehicle dynamics, entertainment and comfort control computer systems may be a different matter all together.

Lets just hope we never find out the truth of EMP.

[FortunateSon]

police are now using mini-emp machines to kill vehicles in high speed chases. the high voltage transients are generated by coil and related cirquitry. the diodes used to rectify and other control cirquitry are silicon based and die quickly. the soviets never scrimped when it came to their weaponry. tesla high energy physics was years ahead of the us. their mathematicians and theoretical physicists are some of the best on the planet. of course, stealing our rand d never bothered them or the chinese much... why do you think we needed and elf system to communicate to subs through water? for launch codes after a first strike. very long time to receive a very small amount of data. we knew that if they surfaced after an emp attack there would be nothing for them to hear on the airwaves or via satellite...

[Treborer]

Originally posted by Falfegnügen
- "the soiviets they proclaimed! they were still using vaccuum tubes!"

I believe that the final consensus on the use of the tubes in the older MIG-25 had little to do with EMP, but really was the result of the Soviet's lack of technology in the area of high-frequency semiconductors, such as in radar transmitters, etc. Not that hard to believe, especially if you've ever been to mother Russia. Even today, Tubes are often the preferred method to generate high-power microwaves, for example: microwave ovens.


- "we spent billions on an elf (extremely low freq) comms system that could wistand a 50000volt burst"

Those communications systems were specifically designed to allow high-reliability communications to submerged submarines, and not becuase they were resistant to EMP. ELF is used becuase it is about the only way to communicate (by radio), through several feet of water. The EMP issue arose because those radio systems, with thier hugely long antennas (many miles long), would likely be particularly sensitive to potential EMP. Quite the converse of the theory that they were ELF in order to resist EMP.


- "ignition systems in your auto. instantaneous shutdown of cars all around you would likely be the first hint you will have of an emp attack, and the beginning of ww3."

I find exception with this too. My experience has been that automobile ignition systems tend to be particularly resistant to high-voltage transients. I mean that's what they do; make high voltage EMP's for the spark plugs! Now on the other hand, Vehicular control computers, such as engine management, vehicle dynamics, entertainment and comfort control computer systems may be a different matter all together.

Lets just hope we never find out the truth of EMP.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:D :bow:

[olsarg]

believe Elf is shut down and the government is giving the ground to state of wisconsin. could be bad info. EMP is why older tactical wheeled vehicles used a shielded point system.

[Palo]

For those thinking about how to defend against an EMP burst, check out:

http://www.endtimesreport.com/EMP.html

I found the item on how to protect autos interesting, but don't know how effective it would really be.

[Falfegnügen]

Originally posted by olsarg
believe Elf is shut down and the government is giving the ground to state of wisconsin. could be bad info. EMP is why older tactical wheeled vehicles used a shielded point system.

I seriously doubt all the ELF systems are shut down. and Well, while I'm being such a smart-ass... I do believe the primary reason that most spark-ignition military vehicles use shielded ignition is purely to reduce radio interference - the same reason it's used in aircraft. It's really the only way to stop HF and some VHF radio interference, and both are critical to military communications. There were also advantages that it could be more easily made water-resistant too, which some were, but not all

For what it's worth, the last of military spark ignition systems, for example as used on the last M151 Mutts, used electronic ignition - not points.

[wyatt earp]

From the FEMA web site, the guide " Are You Prepared " subsection : Nuclear Blast

..........." In addition to other effects, a nuclear weapon detonated in or above the earth’s atmosphere can create an electromagnetic pulse (EMP), a high-density electrical field. An EMP acts like a stroke of lightning but is stronger, faster, and shorter. An EMP can seriously damage electronic devices connected to power sources or antennas. This includes communication systems, computers, electrical appliances, and automobile or aircraft ignition systems. The damage could range from a minor interruption to actual burnout of components. Most electronic equipment within 1,000 miles of a high-altitude nuclear detonation could be affected. Battery-powered radios with short antennas generally would not be affected. Although an EMP is unlikely to harm most people, it could harm those with pacemakers or other implanted electronic devices.


Don't say the government didn't warn you.



1,000 miles

[Treborer]

Everyone should have a woodstove, a water filter, a bycycle, a 12guage, a shit load of matches.

Bad guys don't need EMP if they can shoot the high tension wires, or the tranformers at a power plant- a .50?

[Enquiring Minds]

Oh no, NOT Joe Farrah's "premium" intell bulletin again! How does America's only Arab Likudnik continually get the scoop on the CIA? LOL!! That guy's comedy material is great... too bad it doesn't translate well to the stage.

The PTBs have had a hard-on for Iran ever since they screwed the pooch there in '79... Farrah is one of dozens of neo-con mouthpieces beating the "destroy Iran, they don't like Zionists" drum. This is going to get even more ludicrous than Saddam's WMDs, and the BALSA WOOD drones to "deliver" them... lol.
I sure hope Iran doesn't invade China to spread Islam. :rolleyes:

Many good non-alarmist replies and info here. :bow:

Other points:

0) Our ICBM and SLBM capabilities would NOT be affected. Whomever launched a nuke attack, would vanish (this includes Israel running a black flag op, trying to make us THINK it was Iran, so we'd nuke Iran for them... ;')

1) None of the "beefier" components of the power grid would be harmed, i.e. generators, turbines, transmission lines, towers, sub-stations. Only the "labor reducing" electronic controls and reporting boxes would be vulnerable. OTOH, since many of these items already operate in the very powerful EM fields of 1GV lines, they may be "hardened" or shielded already. Where's AZ Dave when you need him?


All that said, just as several members here have non-IC-chip backup vehicles, the electrical power industry needs to either rad-harden their SCADA resources (if they haven't already), or be prepared to back up to the way things were say pre-1970...

[Rawles]

There are lots of articles on EMP-coutremeasures at my blog (SurvivalBlog.com) For example, here is one that I posted on Monday:

The Big Picture -- Grid Up Versus Grid Down--Oil, Soil, and Water

Before selecting retreat locale, It is crucial that you decide on your own worst case scenario. A location that is well-suited to surviving a "slow-slide" grid up scenario (a la the deflationary depression of the 1930s) might not necessarily be well suited to a grid down situations. As stated in my post on August 15, 2005, a grid down situation will likely cause a sudden onset variation of TEOTWAWKI with a concomitant mass exodus from the big cities resulting in chaos on a scale heretofore never seen in modern memory. (See below.)

My own personal "best case" scenario is an economic depression, with the grid still up, and still some semblance of law and order. Things would be bad, but the vast majority of the population would live through it. Living in a rural agricultural area won't ensure that you'll always have a job, but probably will ensure that you won't starve.

My personal "worst case" scenario takes a lot more description: A rogue nation state launches three or four MIRVed ICBMs with high yield warheads simultaneously detonating at 100,000 feet over America's population center, preferably in October or November, to maximize the extent of electromagnetic pulse (EMP) effects. With only six warheads arriving "time on target" (synchronized for simultaneous detonation) over, for example, Atlanta, Baltimore, Chicago, Dallas, Denver, Seattle, and Los Angeles, more than 90% of the U.S. population would fall within the footprint of EMP. With such an attack there would be hardly any initial casualties aside for a few thousand people unlucky enough to be traveling on that day. (Since EMP would disable electric flight controls, causing any modern aircraft to go out of control and crash, and the sudden loss of engine power in automobiles at the same time as a blinding flash would likely cause thousands of high speed car crashes.) A high altitude air burst would impart no blast or radiation effects on the ground. Nothing other than just EMP. But what an effect! Think of the full implications.

As previously stated, the higher an nuclear air burst is detonated, the wider the line of sight (LOS), and hence the larger the footprint of EMP effects. With an EMP-optimized attack, as I just posited, EMP would be coupled to nearly all of the installed microcircuit chips in the U.S., southern Canada, and northern Mexico. In a enormous cascade this would take down all of the north American power grids, and cripple virtually every vital industry and utility: Natural gas production and piping, municipal water systems, telephone systems (hardwire and cellular), refining, trucking, banking, Internet services, agricultural machinery, electrically-pumped irrigation systems, you name it! 95% of cars and trucks would be inoperative. With the dependence of the power utilities on computers, I have my doubts that they would be able to restore the power grid for weeks, or months, or perhaps years. And with the chaos of society disintegrating around them, they might not have the time or opportunity to restore the grid, even if they would otherwise have the means to do so. This would mean TEOTWAWKI on a grand scale. The words "dog eat dog" do not even begin to describe how things would become in the cities and suburbs. Soon after, as the cities became unlivable (without power, heat, water, sanitation, or transportation of foodstuffs) this would cause a massive, involuntary exodus from the cities and suburbs, almost entirely on foot, comprised of countless millions of starving people. With winter coming on, this would result in a massive die-off, perhaps as much as 70% of the American population. It would not be until after that die-off that some semblance of order could be restored.

This crush of humanity will of course head for any agricultural regions that are within 50 to 75 miles of the major cities. Hence, I would not want to be a farmer living in Pennsylvania's farmlands, California's central or Imperial valleys or Oregon's Willamette valley. They will simply get swarmed and overwhelmed.

Surviving a Long Term a Grid Down WTSHTF Situation:

Even in the absence of EMP, any set of circumstances that would bring down the power grids (for example a major war, a fuel embargo, a cyber attack on power utility Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition (SCADA) software, etc.) would be devastating, and have a similar result. The biggest difference would be that the Golden Horde would have functional cars available--at least as long as their gas lasted. This would and Lets say that you've already moved to a lightly populated agricultural region that is more than 150 miles from any major city.
Assuming that you can avoid the ravages of the Golden Horde by virtue of geographic isolation, you will then have to contend with producing food. If the region that you selected is dependent on electrically-pumped irrigation water, then you'll be out of luck. That is why I emphasize the importance "dry land farming" regions. (Regions where consistent seasonal rains are sufficient to produce crops.) A small scale "truck" farmer in such as region, producing a wide variety of vegetables will be sitting pretty. Even with horse drawn or hand cultivation, he will have large quantities of excess crops available for barter and charity. By teaming up with neighbors and hired hands (paid in barter) for "strength in numbers" he will be able to defend what he owns. With copious produce available, he will be able to barter for harvesting manpower, horses, tools, and so forth. IMO, a man in this position and locale is the most likely survivor of TEOTWAWKI.

With the aforementioned in mind, you can see than importance of finding the right retreat locale. Ideally, it will be far removed from metropolitan regions, have a fairly long growing season, plentiful rainfall, rich topsoil, a reliable domestic water supply that us not dependent on grid power (preferably spring-fed), nearby sources of firewood or coal, and a light ambient population density. If you combine all of these factors--visualize them as map overlays--you will end up with only a few regions in north America that are wholly suitable for "worst case" retreats. Start with a photocopy of a climate book with maps of America's farming regions. Mask out any farming regions that are depending on grid-power pumped irrigation water. Then take a compass and start drawing radiuses around all of the cities with a population greater than 200,000 and shade them in. Depending on your level of pessimism about the scenario and/or your estimation of the depravity of human nature, you may be drawing some pretty large circles!

Hurricane Katrina was a wake up call. I cannot imagine how anyone could watch the television coverage of the aftermath of Katrina and not come to the conclusion that we live in a highly interdependent technological society with enormously long lines of supply and just a thin veneer of civilization, as documented in countless newspaper stories. It doesn't take much to disrupt those interdependencies, nor to expose what lies just beneath that thin veneer. Like an onion, what lies beneath is not very pretty smelling.


Get to Know the NRCS Man!
You will note that I specifically mentioned topsoil in the preceding discussion. The importance of soil quality in the event of a true "worst case" must be emphasized. As S.M. Stirling so aptly described it in his science fiction novel "Dies The Fire", soil quality is not crucial in modern mechanized agriculture. If an acre of ground produces 5 bushels of wheat versus 12 bushels of wheat it is not of great consequence when you are cultivating hundreds or even thousands of acres from inside the cab of an air conditioned $40,000 tractor, or a $70,000 combine. However, if someday you are reduced to traditional pre-industrial manpower or horsepower, where cultivating just a few acres will require monumental exertion, then the soil quality will make a tremendous difference between feeding a community, and starvation. Therefore, have the soil analyzed before you buy a retreat property! Determining the soil types within a region should be your first step--in fact even before you talk to the first real estate agent. Buying lunch for the soils specialist at the local Agricultural Extension office might be a valuable investment. On your first scouting trip to your proposed retreat region, call the USDA Agricultural Extension Office, and ask to talk to a soils specialist at the NRCS (National Resources Conservation Service) desk. (The NRCS was formerly called the Soil Conservation Service.)

[Bruce Allen]

Mel Tappan would be proud.

[fire for effect]

How Much of all of this information about EMP Is known, and how much is guess work???
As I recall, EMP was accidently discovered during one of our Fusion Detonations in space. The Detonation over the South Pacific, took out several Radio Stations in Australia, but all were back on line in six hours.

[Eclipse]

1997 testimony by Dr. George W. Ullrich, Deputy Director, Defense Special Weapons Agency
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/congress/1997_h/h970716u.htm

Congressional Research Service Report (2004)
High Altitude EMP & High Powered Microwave Threat Assessments
http://www.fas.org/man/crs/RL32544.pdf

[adam762]

Worried that your car won't start after an EMP attack? Get yourself one of THESE......:cool:

(sorry, smart alec on a serious topic)

[wyatt earp]

Someone inquired about the book....well for all who are interested and haven't yet read it you can get the E book here: Lights Out : E-Book (http://http://www.giltweasel.com/stuff/LightsOut-Current.pdf)

Happy reading

[justashooter]

Originally posted by cycle_rcr
Radio waves lose intensity quickly as the distance from the source is increased.

this occurs at an exponential factor. i'm not worried about it.

[Flanigan]

For the curious....

EMP Bombs (http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/kopp/apjemp.html)

[C. M. Wolf]

Oh come on Folks, don't even worry about any ol' fashioned EMP/EMB Weapons! Just get/build yourself some "Tesla-Shield Systems",(multi-stacking would be prefered... ), or develop your own "HARRP System" like the U.S has been doing for decades now!

( http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/teshield.txt )
( http://www.borderlands.com/newstuff/research/teslahaa.htm )
( http://robocat.users.btopenworld.com/updates2.htm )

Try doin' some research on these! ;)

...Or for the more "FRN/LowTech minded Folks" on the board... there's always Good Ol' Grand-dad's ol' fashioned "Faraday Cage System" that could always be brought back and updated to apply to help guarding your... "Electro-stuff". :D

IHTH

Michael

P.S. Either way you might want to think about any of this... just remember that, at no time does any kind of EMP/EMB Weapon bother the function of a FAL Rifle orrr the "Loose Nut Behind the Trigger",(so to speak). ;)