L1A1 questions...legal?

[turborocket]

What would a pre-ban UE L1A1, in excellent condition, run? Just looking for a ball-park range.

Also, I know a bit about the DSA FALs but not much about the L1A1s. Can you guys help?

- I think it is an inch receiver, not metric - is this correct?
- I also think that the inch receivers can take metric mags, but not vice versa - can anyone confirm?
- what are the "evil" features available on a pre-ban? flash-hider? folding stock? ???

Thanks in advance...

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: EMDII ]

[Farmer from Hell]

Hmmmmm
What is the markings on the reciever. Preban Brits are kind of rare.

- I think it is an inch receiver, not metric - is this correct?
Yes it should be inch

- I also think that the inch receivers can take metric mags, but not vice versa - can anyone confirm?
Yes to this to

- what are the "evil" features available on a pre-ban? flash-hider? folding stock? ???
The commonwealth countries didnt make a para so no folding stock. The only real evil overt feature it will have is a FH.

HTH
FfH

[turborocket]

Farmer, thanks for the info. Do you have a guess on what ball-park $ range this would command?

[Brian in MN]

If the receiver is an Enfield, then it is an unregistered machine gun. If the receiver is something else, you need to tell us what before we can even begin to give you a price.

[ September 24, 2001: Message edited by: Brian in MN ]

[GreyGhost14]

Originally posted by Farmer from Hell:
<STRONG>
The commonwealth countries didnt make a para so no folding stock. The only real evil overt feature it will have is a FH.
</STRONG>

And a bayonette.

[EMDII]

WE definitely need the receiver markings (not the lower) for a better idea. TMK, no UE machineguns were imported. Some Australian rifles collectively known as 'The Poyers' were imported from Australia. The have 'ADYYXXXXX' SNs and 'L1A1 A' on the receiver LH rail.

Evil features per both bans-
- FH
- PG
- Detachable magazine, also called a Large Capacity Military Magazine (LCMM) in BATF documentation
- Bayonet lug
- Folding stock
- GL

[turborocket]

Thanks for the help so far. Here's some more information...

The current owner says this is in excellent condition; 19-20" barrel; flash-hider; bayonet lug with bayonet; black plastic furniture.

As far as markings...

Left side of upper receiver:
UE58 7.62mm L1A1 VO
Serial Number is A128xx

Trigger group:
UE58 V(then with a logo - a circle with a "V" and an "X" inside)
58D

Right side of upper receiver:
1374 00-1

Pin holding upper and lower receiver:
3YD

Keep in mind that he was describing this over the phone to me so I don't know how accurate this is.

Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

[fresca]

Law Enforcement Only import?

[Farmer from Hell]

Saddly I think you will need to set your own eyes on it to have a definative answer.

We need the markings on the reciever on both sides to give you any info. The reciever is the key. Guns can be built on any number of parts and they are of little consequence in the end.

FfH

[Brian in MN]

Sounds like a machine gun, turbo. If the receiver is Brit, it is a machine gun even though it will only have a semi-auto selector.

[turborocket]

I am going to try to look at this rifle later this week. However, in the interim, still have some questions.

Brian, when you say this is a machine gun, can you clarify? Do you mean this was built as a machine gun in Brit, then turned into semi-auto in order to import it? Or did a previous owner possibly take the auto sear off and sell it, then installed semi-auto parts?

If this was a former machine gun, is that a good thing, a bad thing, or ????

[Douglas Wozny]

Trubo,
The "once a machine, always a machine" rule applies. All military FAL's (except for a specific few G1's) to include L1's, L1A1's, L2's, L2A1's. C1's, C1A1's, C2's, and C2A1's are classified as machine guns>
The Wizard

[BUFF]

Many of the Brit L1A1's were never machine guns, they were built as semiautos, imported by Century as semiautos, and sold mostly to cops as semiautos, no Class 3 business.

[EMDII]

I thought all the L1A1 had the safety sear, but were prohibited from full auto because of the selector. Is so, then the weapon of which he speaks IS a MG.

Were some built w/o the safety sear? Australia modified several (the L1A1 A) for American import, but this is definitely a 1958 Enfield receiver, ergo a full-auto capable rifle.

[litsnsirn]

I've never seen one of these LEO L1A1's, did Century sell alot of them?

[vicg1]

Originally posted by BUFF:
<STRONG>Many of the Brit L1A1's were never machine guns, they were built as semiautos, imported by Century as semiautos, and sold mostly to cops as semiautos, no Class 3 business.</STRONG>

BUFF is right.
I've got one of these. I think I have their LEO advertising brochure for these models somewhere also...

[Brian in MN]

Originally posted by vicg1:
<STRONG>

BUFF is right.
I've got one of these. I think I have their LEO advertising brochure for these models somewhere also...</STRONG>

I'd love to see a pics of the side of the receiver showing the markings and the bottom of the receiver where the safety sear would be on a full auto.

vicg1, are you saying that you have a Brit receiver that was never milled out to accept a safety sear?

[Farmer from Hell]

Im with Ted I havent heard of any Brit recievers made without the saftey sear ie made special for civilian sale. The Aussies did and its called a Poyer and less then 200 were imported. Not only does it require a semi auto EB but the reciever has to be made different without the saftey sear slot.

Were the CAI guns mentioned made on Brit recievers or Brit parts on something else?

There were some guns made on Brit kits before the ban and it it may be one of these but the only way to know for sure whether its preban or not is to contact the maker of the reciever and checking the serial number.

FfH

[vicg1]

Century offered two styles to LE back then. One with the original FA receiver but with semi only parts installed. These were $179 as I recall. Advertised for purchase by departments only.

They also had some for $229 utilizing a semi-auto only receiver which were advertised for departments or individual officer purchase. The upper receiver had NO markings other than "CAI" and the serial number. From data I've been able to gather the serial numbers ran from 100 thru to appx 490. The lowers and all of the rest of the numbered parts had the typical UE amrkings...

[kotengu]

$179?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :eek: :mad: :eek: :mad: :eek: :mad: :eek:

Man I'm sorry I missed that (and that I'm not a department ;) )

[vicg1]

Originally posted by kotengu:
<STRONG>$179?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? :eek: :mad: :eek: :mad: :eek: :mad: :eek:

Man I'm sorry I missed that (and that I'm not a department ;) )</STRONG>

I think I got drool on the booklet... This was a while back, maybe 1987-88... I'll try to dig it up and scna it in.

[vicg1]

the one I have has no import marks on the bbl, just the letters "CAI" on the upper...
no city, state, no "made in"...

I asked Century to verify import date of the rifle and the jokers over there said it was proprietary information!

[EMDII]

Originally posted by vicg1:
<STRONG>the one I have has no import marks on the bbl, just the letters "CAI" on the upper...
no city, state, no "made in"...

I asked Century to verify import date of the rifle and the jokers over there said it was proprietary information!</STRONG>

Run!

Import data is a Federal requirement, and as such must be accessible. IF they won't, you might ask why thay cannot.

Better yet, Ask them to whom they have submitted their importation records. Rumors (rumors) persist that CAI had many cross-border incursions that skirted the intent of the law. If they cannot or will not ascertain the import date of a firearm, they must have somehting to hide.

Hell, tell them your sheriff wants to know.

[vicg1]

I asked them how I could be certain of legal compliance without the import/sale date and again the CSR stated it was proprietary info! I wasn't even asking for a serial number range or who they sold it to originally. I just wanted to know when a specific number rifle made it to the US... no good. An email to them got the same response. I fired off a letter... never got a response.

[Brian in MN]

Turbo, if the receiver is marked UE58, this means that it was made at Enfield in 1958. The receiver is a machine gun: PERIOD

Run away.

That said, I have an Ishapore made rifle that was never sear cut. People love to tell me that Ishapore never made any non-sear cut receivers. I have one in my safe. I showed it to someone who worked at Interarms during the early 1960's. He was not at all surprised and told me that Interarms imported quite a few of them while he worked for them. There is always something new to learn about these rifles. I have never heard of or seen a legal semi-auto Enfield made receiver and I don't think that you will find anyone with one here. Before you even think about buying this rifle you need to learn how to check for a sear cut. It just isn't worth time in the pen. If you get caught with it the "best" outcome still means that you lose the rifle, what you paid for it and the right to ever own a firearm. Unregistered machine guns are just not worth the trouble.

If you want a legal preban inch pattern rifle hunt for an Eden or Onyx import Aussie receiver. They are out there and much cheaper than Poyers. If you are patient and put some effort into it you can probably find one for about the price of a SAR-48.

[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Brian in MN ]

[turborocket]

Thanks for all the info. I've decided to go back to my original plan, which is to just buy a DSA.

[BUFF]

I have the same flyer that Vicg1 has around here somewhere, semiauto L1A1 from Century for $179, department purchases only. It was that flyer that got me interested in having an FAL in the first place. I tried to buy one as an individual LEO, no dice. I tried to 'donate' the money to my department for them to buy one and issue it to me for 'training' but no dice. I saw one in a county sheriff's cruiser in Montana during a road trip in about 1995, and the deputy said his department had bought ten of them from Century with funds donated by a local gun club! He let me look at it closely and the upper receiver had the same numbers stamped on it (UB or UE and some digits, I don't remember exactly now) that the lower receiver had on it. I could find no "Made in XXXX" or company markings on it anywhere. It had the black plastic pebble-grained furniture on it.

By the time I saw the Montana sheriff's L1A1, I had given up on buying a complete rifle from Century and had bought an excellent British L1A1 kit from Century for about $50-100 more than the rifle had been listed for, bought an Entreprise inch receiver and had my rifle up and running for a couple of years. I remember that, except for the markings on my Entreprise upper receiver, the two rifles were just about identical.

I didn't know beans about the inner workings then, sear cuts, safety sears and such. I wish I had known and had looked.

[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: BUFF ]