Leitner-Wise group buy CLOSED

[48th Highlander]

Go to http://grenadierprecision.com and click the group buy banner or the LW logo for info and ordering. Updated pricing included.

[EMDII]

In for a penny, in for a pound------------

[DYNOMIKE]

Just sent E-mail addy

[EMDII]

Pic of bolt? Or is it trade secret currently?

[Gibby]

For what ever reason I could not get the web page to work. But I am deffinitly interested in a conversion or complete upper.

Gibby

[48th Highlander]

The bolt looks exactly like an LMT enhanced dual extractor spring bolt.

I will get some pics of the bolt carrier.

Please tell me what you had trouble with so I can fix the page.:beer:

[DYNOMIKE]

It worked fine for me a few minutes ago?

48th Highlander:
Can you give a little more info on the Barrel Maker? Also would you call the barrel an H-BAR?
Thanx

[48th Highlander]

OK its fixed now. Enter your email now.

[BJS]

48th Highlander,

Your link to the Leitner-Wise website should be www.leitner-wise.com. It is currently missing the hyphen.

BJS

[48th Highlander]

BJS, Thanks buddy.

Lon, all they do is ream the FSB gas tube hole to accept a small shoulder on the gas piston projection. I think they do this without removing it. I would check with them but I am 89% sure.

[JoeLad]

I'm curious as to whether the gas key is replaced by a new one or if an entire new bolt carrier is required.

I'm on the list!

JoeLad:D

[48th Highlander]

Joe, it comes with a new bolt carrier. The key is attached by a dovetail to the carrier. This is to prevent shearing of the screws that attach the key. It also has an elongated ass end that ischamfered to prevent tilt and ensure the carrier does not hang up on the buffer tube. I will get a pic for you.

[48th Highlander]

http://www.ar15.com/content/articles/leitnerwise/media/img_1869.jpg

[the gman]

I'm in!:D

[48th Highlander]

All the pics I have posted thus far are the preproduction units. Let me get some pics of the actual production units to you guys as they are even better.

[DYNOMIKE]

48th Highlander:
Can you give a little more info on the Barrel Maker? Also would you call the barrel an H-BAR?
Thanx

I would also like to know how long it will be before we receive a response to our sign up on the "LINK"?
Will we soon know price and avaiability?
Only asking because I have two AR projects in the works. With "UPPERS" so scarce, and with a 6-16 week wait depending on who you ask I want to get an idea so I know if I should go ahead and order a couple uppers fron another source so I can get on the "LIST" so to speak.

[48th Highlander]

The maker of the barrels is Lothar-Walther. They are the only manufacturer in North America that makes a Cold Hammer Forged M4 barrel. The only other company that uses the extremely expensive process is Diemaco in Canada which is one of the reasons the diemaco rifles are so popular with European military and police. Do a Google on Cold Hammer Forged Barrels. They basically take a short thick barrel blank and a huge hammer press bashes the barrel around a perfect mandrel which lenthens and thins the barrel and leaves you with perfect rifling when compared to button rifling. It also makes for a much stronger, longer lasting barrel. Has to do with metalurgy that is beyond my comprehension.

They are making them in 10.5 which I believe is heavy from back to front, 14.5 and 16" government profile barrels (thin under the guards). I am not sure if they will offer different contours. You could send whatever contour you desire and have it converted.

Lothar Walther is not a huge name in the US but it is in Europe. The main reason is the cost of the barrels.

Go to their site www.lotharwalther.com and check them out.

I can't guarantee yet whether these first rifles will have Lothar-Walther barrels, but I will find out.

The pre-production upper I have has a CMMG barrel on it and I am not sure who makes those.

BTW - CMMG is offering a new 14.7 inch barrel and they perm attach an A2 flash hider it makes the barrel 16". It is indistinguishable from a standard M4.

[48th Highlander]

Pinto is going to LW in Alexandria, VA this week. He is having a face to face with Paul Leitner-Wise. I hope he posts something after that meeting.

This is his baby, I am just helping him out.

[DYNOMIKE]

Thanx for the info.
I did check CMMG's site and saw an upper I kinda like but I have no experience with them and would also like to know who makes there stuff?
Another member asked and was told it is 'There own brand" or something like that.
I suspect they assemble but use products from other vendors?

[RS39]

Originally posted by 48th Highlander
The maker of the barrels is Lothar-Walther. They are the only manufacturer in North America that makes a Cold Hammer Forged M4 barrel. The only other company that uses the extremely expensive process is Diemaco in Canada which is one of the reasons the diemaco rifles are so popular with European military and police. Do a Google on Cold Hammer Forged Barrels. They basically take a short thick barrel blank and a huge hammer press bashes the barrel around a perfect mandrel which lenthens and thins the barrel and leaves you with perfect rifling when compared to button rifling. It also makes for a much stronger, longer lasting barrel. Has to do with metalurgy that is beyond my comprehension.


http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/RifledBarrelManuf/BarrelManufacture.htm

Here is a pretty good bbl mfg article. The LW should be the right tool for the job.

[48th Highlander]

The word is the CMMG stuff is pretty nice. Apparently they have contracted with companies to have all of their own stuff made now. They used to use DPMS uppers. Other than Colt and LMT and of course LW, CMMG is the only company to have in-spec uppers with M4 feed ramps etc.

As LW did not have complete uppers immediately available, I bought an LMT upper and they are converting it for me. I needed everything to be as close to spec as I could get as we are using it for fitting etc for products we are developing.

The only company that had any LMT uppers left in stock was Quantico Arms. $460.

I am impressed with LMT. DSA Fal and AR's are all LMT receivers. It takes balls for a machine shop to mass produce a FAL receiver on a relatively large scale from a 19 pound forged billet. It defies what most machine shops would want to do if you approached them with the job.

[48th Highlander]

No, the rifles, conversions, and uppers come with custom made M4 handuards. They look exactly the same on the outside, but use cooling fins insead of heatshields. You can use regular M4 guards if you modify the heatshield or remove one of the heat shields from the top handguard.

[48th Highlander]

Here is the production gas system. Only difference will be the bolt carrier will not have the holes in it.

http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/cltactical/SS-025.jpg

[48th Highlander]

Here is a link to the group buy that is posted on ARFCOM.

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=249960&page=2

Somebody pointed out that the price on the LW .499 is cheaper on the LW website than it is for the group buy. The reason is that this is a different rifle. The one posted on the LW website is the old direct impingent model. The one for sale in this buy is the short stroke piston model.

People are asking me about the RAS systems that will work. The only freefloat that works is the ARMS SIR out of the box (that I know of). It still requires a whole lot of screwing to get it off and clean your gas system. The knights RAS II works, but you need to mill out the front 2 inches or so of the top rail channel to allow clearance. There are several other non-free float RAS's that will work with minor modifications. The latest Larue fits, but is not a viable option (I have one) because you would have to remove your flash hider and FSB and the anti-roation clamp to clean the gas system. Therefore, it will not work unless you are willing to simply abandon your gas system which we know should work for a long time, but damn, that aint practical at all.

This is the reason we are busting ass to get a production model Grenadier Precision ARM-R (Accessory Rail, Modular - Rifle) to market in time for the group buy deliveries. It has gone to extrusion so it is out of my hands for a short while. The price will be around $250.

The top will remove by pressing a detent button and unlocking the top for instant removal. The RAS will be available in carbine and midlength versions, and later, a full length for the .499. It is T6-6061 aluminum. It will have a monolithic profile giving continuous rail across the top. It will be lighter than the TROY MRF-C and is smaller in rail diameter. It will have Mil-Spec rails all around as these are being developed to go on the USMC rifles to Iraq. It is hard coat anodized (type III) to mil spec. Rails are marked with position numbers all the way around. Has the correct cut outs for use with military rail panels.

We designed the rail from the ground up to address the uniqueness of the LW system. We consulted with Dave Luke (engineer) for knights and LW and he has given us the proper clearances for optimal venting of excess gasses and cooling. You get more rail real estate than the Larue or the Knights. It is completely manufactured by a ISO 9001/2000 extrusion company and the manufacturing facility is also ISO 9001/2000 certified making QC an non-issue and is something none of the other guys can say.

This is a potential military contract for us, so we want to have it as perfect as humanly possible out of the gates without comprimising delivery date to the USMC and the Air Force which is mid-march. That date matches with the time line for this group buy so they will be available as part of the Leitner-Wise product line. I completely understand the brand loyalty to LaRue, Knights, etc. I have a Larue and I love it. However, mounting any of these is a comprimise or requires modification that will leave you with an unsat result IMO. Yes I am biased, but I present the facts to you and you can decide.

The initial production run is only enough RAS systems for the USMC, Air Force and this group buy. Our profit margin is fairly low at this price point and will likely go up. We as well as LW and Pinto completely underestimated the group buy size which is going to put alot of strain on all involved, but we are dedicated to getting it done.

So, you can buy what you want or use what you have, or get our RAS that is purpose built for the rifles in question.

To continue with other info regarding the group buy:

- You can legally order any length barrelled upper you want. Please keep in mind if you have an AR reciever that is not SBR'ed or a pistol receiver, you can be nailed for constructive manufacture of an NFA weapon. You are big boys, and you know what you are doing.

- I talked LW into making an option available for 14.5 or 14.7 barrels with a permanent flash hider to make the overall length 16". These will be custom orders and will be filled after all of the group buy rifles are filled. So if you want them, you will have to wait until they have met their group buy orders. Or, you can get a 14.5 and have it done yourself. The advantage of using a 14.7 barrel is a standard A2 flash hider can be used, making the rifle an identical in appearance to the M4.

- I also talked Mr. Leitner-Wise into offering a low profile gas block set up for those of you who want the MRP appearance with a mid length rail. This is how my personal carbine is being set up. I will post pics as soon as I get the mid-length Grenadier ARM-R (rail system) on it. Again, this will be considered a custom order that will be filled once all other orders are complete. Hey, waiting a bit and getting what you want is better than not getting anything at all. Mr. LW could have ordered the barrel assemblies set up this way, but has a QC problem with most of the civvie barrel manufacturers as they do not parkerize under the gas block. He wants it done right, therefore they will do it in house.

As for the prices, LW has 3 price structures. Retail - What you would pay as a regular Joe, Distributer - Non-FFL selling uppers, and Dealer - FFL dealing in complete firearms. The dealer price is the lowest. 15% off of retail. To get this the dealer has to place a minimum order of over $10,000. They have offered this group buy at the dealer rate of 15% off of retail. That means you guys are getting the same price as I would as an LW dealer after shelling out over $10 G's. That is a very respectable group buy rate. If you still think it is expensive. Don't buy one. The R&D, testing, production costs are high on innovative products like this. It is a gamble they took and they succeeded. After spending gobs of money for the past few years, they now have to recoup and they can do that with such an innovative product. The military interest in this speaks for itself. Some people want the best, and that is what he strived to provide. That is precisely why I dove into this thing as my educated opinion tells me that this is the last major improvement to AR carbines and will extend their service until drastic changes in small arms technology is perfected.

If you have anymore questions. Email me at info@grenadierprecision.com and I will get answers for you. I will likely collect a bunch of questions and then respond to the entire email list as I did here so everyone has the benefit of your questions.

Without deriding anyone elses "comparable products" I can point out the advantages and disadvantages of each and you can make up your own minds if you are interested.

[48th Highlander]

Group buy is now open for 30 days. Go to http://grenadierprecision.com and click the group buy banner or the LW logo.

[BondageJaguar]

Just a question, what is .499?

[48th Highlander]

It is a cartridge that fires a .50 cal bullet in an AR platform.