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Jon Frum
January 08, 2005, 21:41
Which is better bow or crossbow? I have been thinking about getting a crossbow since Georgia has made it legal to deer hunt with either. What do you think.

idsubgun
January 08, 2005, 21:45
Out here in Idaho you can't hunt big game with a crossbow during bow season. We can use a crossbow during rifle season. Have you checked when it's legal in Georgia? Can they be used during bow season or do you even have a separate season for bow hunters?

Jon Frum
January 08, 2005, 21:55
Here a crossbow is legal during bow season, fairly recent. Primitive weapons are also legal for turkey hunting.

W.E.G.
January 08, 2005, 22:08
Although compound bows with mechanical releases blur the line somewhat, I regard hunting with a bow as a completely different game than hunting with a crossbow.

Most good crossbows are every bit as easy to shoot, accurate, and deadly as a shotgun with slugs and a scope.

A "conventional" bow is much harder to shoot well. Maximum practical effective range is much less than a crossbow.

If you just wanna kill more deer, go with the crossbow. If you like hunting deer "the hard way," go with a bow.

I suppose I should add the comment that some bowhunting is not as hard as it seems. Shooting deer in an apple orchard from a tree stand in an apple tree is not the same as shooting deer from a blind in a hardwood forest.

idsubgun
January 08, 2005, 22:11
Originally posted by WILD BILL
Here a crossbow is legal during bow season, fairly recent. Primitive weapons are also legal for turkey hunting.

Hmm, interesting. Out here the purists wouldn't even think about allowing that. We can't even use optics on our bows or our muzzleloaders. There are a bunch of other rules as well on the muzzleloaders. Even enclosed nipples on muzzleloaders aren't allowed so that leaves out most new muzzleloaders. I hunt with a T/C Hawken in .54 caliber so I don't worry about it but have heard of guys buying newer ones and couldn't hunt with them.

If you're not a bow hunter, then I would think a crossbow would be better for you seeing how you are experienced with rifles.

Jon Frum
January 08, 2005, 22:37
I took Archery I and Archery II in college for PE (beat the hell out of badminton, many moons ago). The Boone and Crockett people do not recognise crossbow kills as bow and arrow. I really hunted hard on National Forest, NWR, and WMA lands this year and last to take one small buck. Probably 50 trips with firearm, 2 months of season and a 12 deer+ limit aside. I do not feel like I had an unfair advantage even with a .270. However, I am still glad the deer were not armed.
I have a .50 CVA Mountain Stalker,non in line, but that would ream a turkey pretty good so I use a shotgun.Still have not gotten a turkey(tom) in range but have called in a few including pissed off hens to 8-10 feet.

FWRA
January 09, 2005, 16:08
Crossbow is allowed here in Ohio and if you guys think these are the equivalent of rifles or shotguns you are wrong. The ballistics (drop like a mortar after 40 yards) are virtually the same as with a compound bow. I have a good friend who hunts with a compound bow and he practices a bunch and is able to out shoot most anyone with a crossbow.

I just started bow hunting this year and due to bum shoulder....crossbow is my only option. No sport with a crossbow? I missed a nice buck this year at 30 yards on my second time out with it. Jerked the trigger and suffered from buck fever because I've never seen too many that close. :) My Ithaca Deerslayer II slug gun is super accurate out to 125 yards and beyond and that's my deer harvester of choice. That season is only one week here but bow season is almost 4 mos.

Yep....bow hunting...whether bow or crossbow is harder than hunting with a gun. It takes practice...practice...practice to be sucessful with either. But you sure see a lot more deer during the rut when bow or crossbow hunting than you do during the December hunt here in Ohio.

W.E.G.
January 09, 2005, 16:27
I've missed deer at 20 yards with a full magazine from an AR15.

But I won't admit it.

idsubgun
January 09, 2005, 17:01
Originally posted by gary.jeter
I've missed deer at 20 yards with a full magazine from an AR15.

But I won't admit it.

20 or 30 rounds?

georgestrings
January 09, 2005, 18:22
FWRA has it right - I am an avid bowhunter, a competitive 3D tournament archer(Men's Open/Unlimited Class), and shoot in an indoor 360 league in the winter... I have shot quite a few crossbows, including many current top of line offerings - and my compound bow can outperform ALL of them... A quality compound bow(Mathews, Hoyt, Martin) is typically faster, more accurate, and quieter than the equivalent crossbow... My hunting/3D bow is a Mathews Ultra Max, and even with my short draw length(27.5"), I still hover around 300fps for speed - through a chronograph... a crossbow rated for 300+fps usually will not make those speeds in real life...

Personally, I am opposed to crossbow hunting during archery seasons, EXCEPT in cases where a person is unable to draw a bow... Effective ranges are similar, although a fast compound can likely take a deer a bit farther than a crossbow - where the difference lies, is in the techniques used to take game... The hardest part of taking a deer or turkey with a bow is getting to draw - undetected - while the animal is within range... Also, many times I'll come to draw, only to have to hold the bow at full draw(for a LONG time) while waiting for the animal to give me the shot I'm looking for, to make a clean kill(and sometimes end up letting down before getting a good shot - only to watch the critter hightail it outta there)... A crossbow hunter can wait as long as they want, and actually take a rest like you would with a rifle - a bowhunter has to get to draw, get a proper anchor point, settle his pin on the kill zone, hold steady enough to make the shot, make a smooth release, and follow through.... There is NO doubt that it's easier to shoot a crossbow than a compound - and takes MUCH less practice to become proficient with one - but a highly skilled archer can nearly always outshoot a crossbow shooter offhand, at the same distances...

In short - a crossbow shares the same effective ranges as a good compound, but is used more like a gun in the manner of taking game... Crossbows are illegal to hunt with in my home state of NY, and I would like to see it remain that way - except for the handicapped...


- georgestrings

mosbysmen
January 11, 2005, 19:44
if someone wants to hunt with a crossbow , do it durning gun season .
not archery season .

bowser
January 13, 2005, 11:30
i second georgestrings' thoughts and comments.

I saw a demonstration video once comparing crossbow/compound bow. The bigger difference to me is the kinetic energy that is retained in the arrow/bolt. The demo used a 55gal drum shot from 10 yards with a 150lb crossbow and a 70lb compound. The bolt penetrated one thickness of steel, and hung half of the bolt ouside of the barrel. The compound bow penetrated both thicknesses of steel, and poked out the back side of the barrel by about 3 inches.

There is such a short "power stroke" on the crossbow, they have to make up for that with draw weight. On a compound, even with shorter draw lengths like george, he still gets about a 20 inch power stroke, versus the crossbow and an 8 inch stroke at best. I'm gettin about 25 inch stroke thanks to a 31 inch draw length, so I can shoot under 70lbs and still be around 300fps on arrow speed. Besides, compounds are lighter and take up less room. Just my .02

brent

Stranger
January 13, 2005, 14:52
Crossbow laws are really wierd in most states. Here in OK you can hunt w/ a crossbow during bow season if you have a "special disability" permit. (Same with hunting from a vehicle for that matter.) Cities are sometimes strange about them as well. A couple of the towns I have lived in place crossbows in the same category as firearms and pellet guns (forbidden to fire in the city limits). Bows do not have that limitation.

Shooting crossbows is easy and anyone with decent aim can use one with great effect. Bows require more fines. While I have not gone bow hunting, I do own a compound bow (SkyForce w/ an 80lb draw) and find it a lot of fun (and a challenge) to target shoot. I can now keep it in the 3" circle of the target at 20 yards using a "mechanical release".

IMHO, using a release does not even come close to the ease of using a crossbow.

Get a bow and a target and have a good time. You will get a good work out from it.

Muggzy
January 14, 2005, 07:21
In our group using a cross bow is considered....."unmanly":biggrin:

It is however excepted if the individual has a handicap that prevents him or her form drawing a bow.

Master the skills of a compound or recurve and injoy the sport

Humpph...crossbows!! sissy stuff!

idsubgun
January 14, 2005, 16:36
Originally posted by Muggzy
In our group using a cross bow is considered....."unmanly":biggrin:

It is however excepted if the individual has a handicap that prevents him or her form drawing a bow.

Master the skills of a compound or recurve and injoy the sport

Humpph...crossbows!! sissy stuff!


I feel the same way with muzzleloaders. I shoot a T/C Hawken without optics, etc. No inline crap, just a real primitive weapon. I've been doing this for decades and when I see the new inline, covered breech, Yuppie muzzleloaders out on the market now, I hate them. Want to hunt a primitive hunt? Use a primitive weapon. That's what our muzzleloading hunt is out here.
Now, if you live in a state where you're not allowed to use high powered weapons and have to resort to using shotguns or muzzleloaders, then that's a different story. That leads to the question of "why live in such a state"?

packratt
January 14, 2005, 19:15
Garry

Virginia only allows use of a cross bow to hunt by those who are unable to draw a bow. Special form which must be signed by hunters doctor documenting this.

I'm about 99% certain that Tenn. is the same way.

packratt

cabofdoom
January 14, 2005, 19:29
just to play devils advocate, when you start talking "primitive weapons" dosn't the crossbow predate the muzzle loading firearm?

as far as crosbows go , their range is less that a bow. they are heavier, more cumbersome and is truely a one shot weapon...all in all a real challenging hunt.

I must say, the prejudice towards crossbows is a little surprising. I was wondering how many anti-crossbowers have reached their conclusions through practical application and how many are just spouting "party line". (dosn't that sound like alot of other "anti's" we all know and love?)

Personally, I'm waiting for a real primitive season... nothing but a blaze orange loincloth and a rock. The season will open the last weekend of march and run to Easter. Eligable game is anything you feel froggy enough to tackle with your rock (minimum weight of rock to be determined by game you you choose to hunt).:biggrin:


Everyone have a great weekend

Cheers:whiskey: :beer: :whiskey: :beer:

COD

georgestrings
January 15, 2005, 11:33
"just to play devils advocate, when you start talking "primitive weapons" dosn't the crossbow predate the muzzle loading firearm?"


Both are predated by real bows - so that argument won't wash...


"as far as crosbows go , their range is less that a bow. they are heavier, more cumbersome and is truely a one shot weapon...all in all a real challenging hunt."


But not as challenging as hunting with a real bow - as I already mentioned, one has to get to draw - undetected - while the game is within range - aquire an anchor point, line up the sights, aim, make a smooth release - and follow through - not to mention doing all that while holding the bow at full draw, waiting for a good shot angle... Many times as a bowhunter I've been "picked off" trying to get to draw on a deer or turkey - or had to let down before getting a good enough shot angle - only to watch the animal high tail it outta there... NONE of those difficulties are encountered with a crossbow - no matter how you slice it, hunting with a crossbow is more like hunting with a short range gun than it is like hunting with a bow.... All a crossbow hunter has to do is sit perfectly still, waiting for the appropriate shot, with their cheek down on the stock - they can even shoot off a rest - sounds like gun hunting, right???


"I must say, the prejudice towards crossbows is a little surprising. I was wondering how many anti-crossbowers have reached their conclusions through practical application and how many are just spouting "party line". (dosn't that sound like alot of other "anti's" we all know and love?)"


I can't speak for anyone else, but in MY case you couldn't be more wrong... I have shot MANY crossbows, and am well aware of what they will, and won't do - and see them as being extremely damaging to the sport of bowhunting that I love so much - not to mention being a commonly used tool of poachers... In Ohio, crossbow hunters by FAR outnumber real bowhunters - and I'd be willing to bet that a VAST majority of them are gun hunters who are just too lazy to put in the type of effort it takes to be proficient with a bow - now how is flooding the woods with those types during ARCHERY season helping a bowhunter in ANY way??? I would assert that those pushing the use of a crossbow(except in the case of handicap) during archery season are either too lazy to gain proficiency with a REAL bow, or are going to make money off of the sale of crossbows or licenses - and are not the least bit interested in helping to further bowhunting in ANY way...

When Ohio bowhunters are outnumbered nearly 2:1 by crossbow hunters - and outscored by the same margin - you can't tell me that's a good thing for bowhunting... Now, I'm not trying to tell them what to do with their hunting seasons - just using it as an example of what I DON'T want to see happen to bowhunting in MY native state...


- georgestrings

90north
January 19, 2005, 11:57
I think a lot of people are basing their opinion of crossbows on what they have seen in movies. Crossbows silently killing enemy sentrys at 150-200 yards. The truth of the matter is they are heavy, cumbersome, and hard to cock. In some states you are allowed to use a crossbow if you are handicapped. I have a spinal cord injury and qualify to use a crossbow. I tried several, all requird an axilary device to cock the string. They were so heavy I could barely get them to my shoulder and hold it there. I went back to my Bear recurve for hunting, lighter, easier to manuver in the woods, works fine if you do your job. Several years ago, a young girl was shot with a crossbow. In a knee-jerk reaction the NC legislation passed a law requiring the same permit, issued by your local sheriff, to buy a pistol, to buy a crossbow.

Muggzy
January 19, 2005, 12:24
Originally posted by cabofdoom


Personally, I'm waiting for a real primitive season... nothing but a blaze orange loincloth and a rock. The season will open the last weekend of march and run to Easter. Eligable game is anything you feel froggy enough to tackle with your rock (minimum weight of rock to be determined by game you you choose to hunt).:biggrin:


COD


:bow: ......man...now yer talkin'


I really don't care if others use a crossbow....it's just the guys I hunt with...man..
they would be unmerciful to me.
I did shoot a Barrett..it was in the 150lb. range with a scope on it. They are deadly at 30 yards (that was the range we were at when trying it) I thought it was kinda cool. But knew better than to purchase cause of the heat I was going to take. Plus I have mastered the art of the compound bow and enjoy it.

If you enjoy hunting with a crossbow ..then....that's what you should use.

Blood of Tyrants
January 19, 2005, 15:33
Originally posted by gary.jeter
I've missed deer at 20 yards with a full magazine from an AR15.

But I won't admit it.

LOL! A semi auto for hunting is the best gun to let the other hunters know what a crappy shot you are.

georgestrings
January 19, 2005, 20:26
90north - I don't have any qualms about crossbows and the handicapped - just not for general use during Archery season.... An able bodied "archer" should have to draw a bow - or wait until gun season - that's the way I see it....


- georgestrings

Windustsearch
January 20, 2005, 04:38
Crossbows are illegal to hunt with in most states because they have a tendency to wound deer. Cross bows do not shoot as hard as a compound bow, not even close, nor are they as accurate. The pull back may be higher but the bow is shorter and the bolts are much lighter, delivering far less energy to the target.

georgestrings
January 20, 2005, 10:41
Originally posted by Windustsearch
Crossbows are illegal to hunt with in most states because they have a tendency to wound deer. Cross bows do not shoot as hard as a compound bow, not even close, nor are they as accurate. The pull back may be higher but the bow is shorter and the bolts are much lighter, delivering far less energy to the target.


I agree with all of the above, except I think the main reason why they're illegal in most states has to do with poaching more than anything else....


- georgestrings

bamaboy
January 20, 2005, 10:44
They legalised them here in Alabama as well, and I've got one that I've had for years ( just thought it was cool) but IMHO they are so loud that I don't think you could take a deer with it, they have such fast reflrxes that they can duck out of the way of the bolt, for hunting I'd recomend a good compound bow.

FWRA
January 20, 2005, 21:13
Originally posted by bamaboy
They legalised them here in Alabama as well, and I've got one that I've had for years ( just thought it was cool) but IMHO they are so loud that I don't think you could take a deer with it, they have such fast reflrxes that they can duck out of the way of the bolt, for hunting I'd recomend a good compound bow.
bamaboy?
That comment is so true. Loud they are and certainly not the "riflelike" tack driving deer killers that most folks think they are.

Regarding the comments made here about crossbows being outlawed in most states because they wound more deer than they kill... is just poppycock. A poor shooter with a compound bow...and a poor shooter with a crossbow can wound deer equally well. Todays compound crossbows made by Horton and other big names are far different than the old recurve models sold just 20 years ago. These new crossbows range from 150 to 300# pulls (and more) and shoot a bolt with deadly results when the shooter does his part.

It all boils down to the same old arguments. "Chevy trucks are the best made" " "No...Ford makes the best truck.." Dodge!"

Basically... folks should hunt with whatever equipment works best for them...and to heck with what everyone else thinks.

You know what they say....opinions are like....well, you know, and we all have one :)

georgestrings
January 21, 2005, 01:23
Mark - I have to ask: are you a bowhunter???


- georgestrings

Windustsearch
January 21, 2005, 04:04
First off, most of those laws are way more than 20 years old. Second, I've shot a few of them (new ones), they lose it at about 30-40 feet. At 50-60 feet they bounce off trees! I have also shot compound bows and there is no comparison. Shoot an arrow into a tree at 50 feet with one and good luck getting it out.

Muggzy
January 21, 2005, 06:51
Originally posted by Windustsearch
Shoot an arrow into a tree at 50 feet with one and good luck getting it out.


uh...I've done that! ....but not on purpose:cry:

Kinetic energy of a compound bow is much more than a crossbow (read as better penatration.

Bow hunters have longer shafts:biggrin:

FWRA
January 23, 2005, 12:41
Originally posted by georgestrings
Mark - I have to ask: are you a bowhunter???


- georgestrings

From my comments above....

I just started bow hunting this year and due to bum shoulder....crossbow is my only option. No sport with a crossbow? I missed a nice buck this year at 30 yards on my second time out with it. Jerked the trigger and suffered from buck fever because I've never seen too many that close. :) My Ithaca Deerslayer II slug gun is super accurate out to 125 yards and beyond and that's my deer harvester of choice. That season is only one week here but bow season is almost 4 mos.


Just started this year. I am hampered in my efforts due to the fact I shoot out of a ground blind.

I'm not a tree climber......heights and I are NOT good friends.
Plus much easier to get to my coffee thermos while sitting in my folding chaise lounge with built in cup holders. :biggrin:

georgestrings
January 24, 2005, 08:02
OK, Mark - I glossed over that, apparantly... I'll say this much - IF you were an avid bowhunter(like I am), and wanted to see bowhunting preserved in your native state, I suspect you'd take a slightly different attitude on the subject than:

"Basically... folks should hunt with whatever equipment works best for them...and to heck with what everyone else thinks."


By THAT way of thinking, heck - I should be able to use a rifle whenever I want, right???


I've seen the numbers regarding crossbow vs bow use in Ohio - and the same in regards to harvest rates - and that's NOT what I want Bow season to become here in NY... I'm glad crossbows are illegal here in NY - that way, the woods aren't flooded with gun hunters using crossbows when us bowhunters are trying to chase deer with stick and string... I would support allowing crossbow use by those deemed by a doctor to be unable to draw a bow - but other than that, I don't want crossbows allowed in NY - and any fellow bowhunter I've talked to here in NY sees it the same way...


- georgestrings

FWRA
January 25, 2005, 01:28
Originally posted by georgestrings
OK, Mark - I glossed over that, apparantly... I'll say this much - IF you were an avid bowhunter(like I am), and wanted to see bowhunting preserved in your native state, I suspect you'd take a slightly different attitude on the subject than:

"Basically... folks should hunt with whatever equipment works best for them...and to heck with what everyone else thinks."


By THAT way of thinking, heck - I should be able to use a rifle whenever I want, right???


I've seen the numbers regarding crossbow vs bow use in Ohio - and the same in regards to harvest rates - and that's NOT what I want Bow season to become here in NY... I'm glad crossbows are illegal here in NY - that way, the woods aren't flooded with gun hunters using crossbows when us bowhunters are trying to chase deer with stick and string... I would support allowing crossbow use by those deemed by a doctor to be unable to draw a bow - but other than that, I don't want crossbows allowed in NY - and any fellow bowhunter I've talked to here in NY sees it the same way...


- georgestrings

No problem Georgestrings. I'm glad you folks are happy with your hunting regs in NY...but here in Ohio...we have choices. We can also hunt with handguns of appropriate caliber.

We still have bow hunters who are purists and look down at crossbow hunters in the Buckeye state......but I could care less. I choose a crossbow for reasons stated previously and don't really care to hunt in NY anyway...so you sure don't have to worry about me ruining your bow hunting "club".

And...we have bigger deer here in Ohio anyway. (Nomex on!) :biggrin:

Just funnin' ya George. You are welcome to come down here to bow hunt any time. You wont be alone. I may try a 45# compound bow in the near future to see if my bum shoulder can handle that.

georgestrings
January 25, 2005, 11:22
No problem, Mark - I don't believe in telling the residents of other states how they should run THEIR hunting seasons - as I don't appreciate it when others do it to me...

Maybe I'll take you up on that offer one day - and host you for a hunt here in NY(you'll have to leave the crossbow home, though - haha!!!)... I've been hearing of some nice bucks being taken out of Ohio - and we have some decent ones here in NY, also... Conservatively speaking, I can hunt well over 5,000 acres of farmland that's all private property - most of which is in shotgun zones - so if you can't draw a bow, maybe you could bring a slug gun out here???

Take it easy, bud - and good luck to you next season...


- georgestrings

SP10
January 25, 2005, 13:24
I bowhunt and gunhunt. I put in as much time as possible in the woods from October through December. I enjoy hunting deer with whatever weapon is in season. I really couldn't give a damn what someone uses to hunt deer with as long as they do it safely and legally. I would have very little problem with a crossbow season in NY.

With the long bow seasons firmly established in NY, too many archers think they have a "right" to have the woods all to themselves, to the exclusion of all other hunters. The "CNY Bowman", a pro-bowhunting group in NY is a prime example of this. They as a group resist even handicapped archers from using a crossbow during archery season. Complete bunch of selfish bastards, IMO.

And those of you who hunt with compounds and actually argue a crossbow makes it too easy or is too technologically advanced, give me a $%#*&%& break :rolleyes: 80% letoff, single-cam technology, machines aluminum risers, whiskers biscuits, fiber optic sites, carbon arrows, open on impact broadheads, etc etc etc. Yeah, real "primitive".....

Meanwhile the number of hunters in NY continues to trend downwards as new potential hunters are lost to the "sports/mall" culture and video games. Well, at least that leaves more deer for ME ME ME ME ;)

Aubie515
January 25, 2005, 22:34
I completely agree with SP10...who cares what you hunt with...a kill is a kill...I am certain the game commission is not concerned about what bowhunters want. If bowhunters use a bow because of the challenge then so be it...but don't say it's less of a weapon for someone who chooses to use a crossbow. Ultimately it's a matter of preference...if you enjoy using a bow, well continue using your bow and enjoy the hunt. I personally will be buying a crossbow because I like knowing I don't have to draw the bow back and wait for my shot...call me lazy or whatever else, but I know that I hunt because I enjoy it and if someone thinks I am cheating...that's his/her opinion. If you are such a good archery, it will not matter if others are hunting with a crossbow...I think most people have too much time on their hands and they enjoy complaining about every little topic that comes up. I would be more concerned about banning the practice of hunting rather than the weapon being used.

georgestrings
January 26, 2005, 08:47
You guys are entitled to your opinions, as I am to mine - we'll just leave it at that... Crossbow use really wouldn't affect ME much, personally - in fact it might just benefit me, as I only hunt private property, and the additional hunting pressure on neighboring properties would probably be a plus for me - although I'll bet the average bowhunter doing the state land thing wouldn't care much for it... In Ohio, for example - there are typically nearly twice the number of crossbow hunters than archers during their archery season(according to stats) - and the sucess rate is nearly double, too - I've yet to talk to a NY bowhunter that wants that to happen here...

"I personally will be buying a crossbow because I like knowing I don't have to draw the bow back and wait for my shot..."

Or put in the practice time necessary to become proficient with a bow - your post says it all... Going by your guy's arguments, why shouldn't I be able to use a rifle whenever I want, right???...


- georgestrings

SP10
January 26, 2005, 10:03
Originally posted by SP10
... they do it .....legally.....



Skip over this part George? :)

But hell, if you want to hunt with your rifle whenever you want, it really is no skin off my nose. I know any deer you kill isn't wasted. The deer I kill are all utilized as well.

I am concerned with observing season dates and bag limit laws, etc., but the untensil used to whack bambi is of minor concern to me as long as everyone is playing by the same rules :aug:

I also think groups like CNYbowmen who even resist disabled archers the chance to use a crossbow are doing the sport of hunting-and thier fellow hunters, a serious disservice.

As for Ohio, I don't know the stats, but I wonder how many guys simply traded in their compounds for crossbows when it became legal. Any idea of that? I find it hard to believe you would get a huge infusion of new hunters.

I wonder how many archers who also muzzleload bitched when NY allowed the use of sabots, inline-ignition, and optics??? DAMN, but that sure must have screwed things up :rolleyes:

paintballmagnet
January 26, 2005, 10:40
I've seen too many deer wounded by poorly trained bowhunters and primitive muzzleloader shooters to have any problem with using inlines or crossbows. You can't keep this sort of person from hunting, I say let him or her use crossbows and inlines with optics if it will help prevent gutshot deer. One particular "hunter" I know couldn't hit a five gallon bucket @ 50 yards with his iron sighted side hammer, but had no qualms potting away at deer over 100 yards. I talked him into buying a good inline and scope, I haven't had to spend two or three hours tracking a wounded animal he's shot since.