PDA

View Full Version : JUST GREAT. Several killed in WI deer hunting shooting...(MERGED)


darkknight9
November 21, 2004, 19:34
From A local news source (http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_326173143.html)

Several Killed In WI Shooting

Nov 21, 2004 4:27 pm US/Central
(WCCO) Five people are dead and three injured after a shooting Sunday around noon in northwest Wisconsin.

Officials say a group of deer hunters told a man he was not allowed to hunt on some property near the town of Birchwood, Wis. Authorities say the man returned with an assault rifle and shot eight people.

Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle says a suspect from the Twin Cities area was arrested around 5 p.m.

A spokeswoman at Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake, Wis. said the hospital was treating two men.

One is in fair condition. The other is in critical condition.

A third shooting victim was transferred to the Marshfield Clinic in Marshfield, Wis. That victim was originally taken to the Lakeview Medical Center.

Watch WCCO 4 News following the movie and WCCO 4 News This Morning for more information and reports from the scene.

******************************************


Y'all have that ASSault weapons ban legislation warm? Somebody will use this incident no doubt.

All this just a few minutes from where I am going hunting (with my FAL) on Tuesday.

Super.

darkknight9
November 21, 2004, 20:02
page with video (http://www.kstp.com/)

text (http://www.kstp.com/article/stories/S4381.html?cat=1)

EMDII
November 21, 2004, 20:12
"was originally thought ot be an automatic weapon, but now some clarification..."

Jump to conclusions, don't they-

RT
November 21, 2004, 20:15
I just watched the video. and the sheriff said it was a SKS simi rifle~R

darkknight9
November 21, 2004, 20:27
Originally posted by EMDII
"was originally thought ot be an automatic weapon, but now some clarification..."

Jump to conclusions, don't they-

Big time.

This will be the only news outlet that tells you its an sks though. Round these parts, its gonna be an assault weapon for all the other networks......

:(

DAMN!!!!!

16R40
November 21, 2004, 20:54
"Several killed in WI deer hunting shooting..."

when I first read that topic, I though the deer finally got smart and are arming themselves and shooting back.......but it just turned out to be the run of mill man kills man story. oh well.

darkknight9
November 21, 2004, 21:29
From another local source (http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=71958)

A dispute among deer hunters over a tree stand in northwestern Wisconsin erupted Sunday in a shooting that left five people dead and three injured, officials said.

The alleged gunman, a man from the Twin Cities area, was arrested at about 5:15 p.m. Sunday at the Rusk and Sawyer County line, according to Sawyer County sheriff's officials.

The violence began shortly after a hunting party saw a hunter occupying their tree stand, according to Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle. A confrontation, and shooting, followed.

One of the shooting victims radioed back to the deer shack for help, he said. When more hunters came to the scene, they also were shot, Zeigle said.

The shootings happened in the town of Meteor in southwestern Sawyer County, County Sheriff James Meier said in a news release. Three people were taken to a local hospital, Meier said.

Melody Hargis, nursing supervisor at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield, said one of the victims, a man, was there in critical condition. KSTP reported two wounded were brought to a Rice Lake hospital, where they were in critical and fair conditions.

Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. He said the incident was "very upsetting."

After they got word of a shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.

"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."

It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said.

The incident won't dampen their hunt, he said.

"We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."

darkknight9
November 21, 2004, 21:54
Chai Vang is being held in the Sawyer County Jail:

Sig220
November 21, 2004, 22:04
As if the original incident was not bad enough, the news reports I have seen and heard are saying the shooting was by "automatic weapon" and then later by "assault rifle". Sad thing is the morons in the studios don't know a chipmonk .22 from a Browning .50. But the more they run their mouths the worse it looks.

darkknight9
November 21, 2004, 22:12
Originally posted by Sig220
As if the original incident was not bad enough, the news reports I have seen and heard are saying the shooting was by "automatic weapon" and then later by "assault rifle". Sad thing is the morons in the studios don't know a chipmonk .22 from a Browning .50. But the more they run their mouths the worse it looks.

The "assault weapon" implications are almost as bad as the "cultural" reprocussions that are now going to spread.

Rocky_TFC
November 21, 2004, 22:35
I guess its a good thing they werent "hunting" with "Assault rifles".

Mortech
November 21, 2004, 22:40
And people wonder why I use my Cetme or my AK for hunting around here (Can you say illegal marijuana grow operations ?)

Blood of Tyrants
November 21, 2004, 22:41
Originally posted by Rocky_TFC
I guess its a good thing they werent "hunting" with "Assault rifles".

Jeez, man, get it right.:rolleyes: The guy was using an eeeeevil "sniper rifle".:eek:

Enquiring Minds
November 21, 2004, 23:27
An Asian suspect named Chai Vang? Hello, is someone on the wrong CONTINENT? Lefty states like Wizz-consin will apparently issue a hunting license to anyone. INS/ICE, immigration check, aisle 3...


Well, so much for the oft-voiced theory that deer hunters would be a formidable force in an insurgency/Red Dawn scenario. :tongue:

It is a tough call though, because let's say you call in some 105mm arty--BOOM!--illegal immigration problem solved, but there goes your tree stand. :biggrin:

16R40
November 22, 2004, 00:46
Originally posted by darkknight9

Chai Vang is being held in the Sawyer County Jail:

I'm just wondering if the other party wasn't some of these guys :D

http://www.upcomingdiscs.com/screenshots/kinghills2_1.jpg

hagar
November 22, 2004, 04:28
Somebody raised in another country, brought up with no regard for human life or hunting ethics, just another example of multi-culturism at work in the hunting fields that we will all end up paying for.

FN74
November 22, 2004, 06:35
What a freaking moron! Part of the reason why I no longer hunt - just too many whackos in the woods.....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041122/ap_on_re_us/hunters_shot

5 Killed, 3 Hurt in Wis. Hunting Dispute

53 minutes ago U.S. National - AP


By JOSHUA FREED, Associated Press Writer

BIRCHWOOD, Wis. - A deer hunter shot and killed five people and injured three others in northwestern Wisconsin following a dispute about a tree stand during the hunt's opening weekend, authorities said.


AP Photo



The 36-year-old alleged gunman, who lives in the Minneapolis area, was arrested Sunday afternoon, Sawyer County sheriff's officials said. Jake Hodgkinson, a deputy at the county jail, identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no additional details.


The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.


It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.


Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said.


The dead included four males — including a teenage boy — and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.


All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.


"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.


Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.


Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.


The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said. When he emerged, a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back, given to police by a victim, Zeigle said.


The man was out of bullets and was arrested, Zeigle said.


One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.


Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. After they got word of the shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.


"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."


It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said. "We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."

Blackmore
November 22, 2004, 06:48
Here are a couple of telling paragraphs from the story I read:

Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

Well, at least they didn't use the "A" word and got it right it was a semi.

The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said.

Sounds like he had no clue about how to be a responsible hunter. Had no idea where he was when he climbed into someone else's stand. Hunter education requirement in WI? Must have snoozed through class or not understood the language the instructor was speaking.

Stranger
November 22, 2004, 07:36
Be careful out there guys.

bykerhd
November 22, 2004, 07:37
Flashing back to his service in the Viet Nam war as a child no doubt. On which side, who knows. Probably couldn't understand what they were saying to him, but didn't like the tone. Unfortunate to say the least. The media is having a field day with it.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 08:25
Originally posted by Blackmore

Sounds like he had no clue about how to be a responsible hunter. Had no idea where he was when he climbed into someone else's stand. Hunter education requirement in WI? Must have snoozed through class or not understood the language the instructor was speaking.

There is a Hunter's education requirement to get a license. The Minnesota Hunter education program is recognized as acceptable in Wisconsin.

There is no requirement for folks who are over about 30.

This story keeps getting worse.

MACV
November 22, 2004, 10:34
....check this story out.

From USA Today

5 shot dead, 3 hurt in Wis. hunting dispute
BIRCHWOOD, Wis. (AP) — A deer hunter shot and killed five people and injured three others in northwestern Wisconsin following a dispute about a tree stand during the hunt's opening weekend, authorities said.


Chai Vang is jailed in Sawyer County, Wis., after a dispute among deer hunters over a tree stand left five people dead and three injured.
KSTP-TV via AP
The 36-year-old alleged gunman, who lives in the Minneapolis area, was arrested Sunday afternoon, Sawyer County sheriff's officials said. Jake Hodgkinson, a deputy at the county jail, identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no additional details.
The incident began when two hunters were returning to their rural cabin on private land in Sawyer County when they saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. A confrontation and shooting followed.
It's not known who shot first, Zeigle said.
Both hunters were wounded and one of them radioed to the cabin a quarter mile away. Other hunters responded and were shot. About 20 shots were fired, but it's unclear who shot them, he said.
The dead included four males — including a teenage boy — and a woman, Zeigle said. A father and son were among them, he said. Some of the victims were shot more than once.
All five, from the Rice Lake area, were dead when officers arrived to the area in southwestern Sawyer County, he said. Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.
"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.
Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 caliber semiautomatic, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.
Two young people who stayed in the cabin emerged safely after the shootings.
The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two hunters, not knowing about the shootings, helped him find his way out, Zeigle said. When he emerged, a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back, given to police by a victim, Zeigle said.
The man was out of bullets and was arrested, Zeigle said.
One of the injured hunters was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital. Another was listed in serious condition and the third was in fair condition, both at Lakeview Medical Center.
Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh, was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters. After they got word of the shooting, he and others went to round up the rest of the party. He said they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and noticed the surrounding roads blocked off.
"When you're hunting you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," he said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."
It took about three hours to round up the other hunters, who were up to four miles apart, Wagner said. "We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."

Copyright 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Hawk
November 22, 2004, 10:55
I don't think it was a location dispute so much as the guy just wanted to kill people. Sick bastard! Get ready for the anti-hunting and anti-sks legislation.

skfullgun
November 22, 2004, 11:32
I'd be interested in hearing more details about this...particularly about the shooter.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 11:41
Originally posted by skfullen
I'd be interested in hearing more details about this...particularly about the shooter.

I have been trying to keep this thread (http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126255) updated with the latest.

gman552
November 22, 2004, 11:42
EM, who says the shooter was here illegally? Going by the name, he's probably Hmong, you know, the people we used as surrogate soldiers in Laos against the Commies, then screwed over?

Hagar, I think there are also quite a few people raised in this country brought up with no regard for human life or hunting ethics.

But all of that is neither here nor there - if he did kill those people (and it sounds like he did), I'd shoot the son-of-a-bitch myself :mad:

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 12:04
The man needed to possess a legal MN drivers license to get his hunting license. His back tag is how he was identified when exiting the woods.

He is here legally, as part of the recent influx of hmong immigrants? No one knows. His entire family was escorted from their home yesterday and is now in some sort of protective custody in St. Paul (St Paul Police). I can only assume its from fear of reprisals????


I will be in the area of the shooting tomorrow eve through Friday evening, but I will continue to pass on any updates that I see here locally.

More to follow.....

-dk9

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 12:08
Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

About 20 shots were fired but it was unclear if any of the hunters had fired at the suspect or who might have shot first, Zeigle said. There was just one gun among the eight people killed or wounded, he said.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 12:10
The latest AP article:


BirCHWOOD, Wis. Nov 22, 2004 — A deer hunter who apparently intruded on private property killed five other hunters who had been staying in a nearby cabin and wounded three more during the opening weekend of deer season, authorities said.

A 36-year-old man was arrested Sunday afternoon when he came out of the woods, sheriff's officials said. Two of the wounded were in critical condition Monday.

Deputy Jake Hodgkinson identified the suspect as Chai Vang but would give no details. Vang is from St. Paul, Minn., said Paul Schnell, a spokesman for the St. Paul police department.

The shooting started when two hunters returning to their rural cabin saw the suspect in one of their hunting platforms in a tree, Sawyer County Chief Deputy Tim Zeigle said. The platforms or "tree stands" allow hunters to see deer without being easily seen themselves.

Both of those hunters were wounded and one of them radioed friends at the cabin a quarter-mile away. Other members of their group responded and they also were shot, he said.

"It's absolutely nuts. Why? Over sitting in a tree stand?" asked Zeigle.

Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

About 20 shots were fired but it was unclear if any of the hunters had fired at the suspect or who might have shot first, Zeigle said. There was just one gun among the eight people killed or wounded, he said.

The dead included a a teenage boy and a woman, and a father and son, Zeigle said. Some of the victims were shot more than once. All five were from the Rice Lake area, about 15 miles southwest of Birchwood in northwestern Wisconsin, he said.

Authorities found two bodies near each other and the others were scattered over 100 yards.

The suspect, who did not have a compass, got lost in the woods and two other hunters who didn't know about the shootings helped him find his way out, Zeigle said.

The man was arrested when he emerged from the woods and a Department of Natural Resources officer recognized the deer license on his back from a description given by one of the shooting victims, Zeigle said.

The man was out of ammunition, he said.

One of the injured hunters was in critical condition Monday at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield. Another was in critical condition and a third in stable condition at Lakeview Medical Center in Rice Lake.

Hunter Bill Wagner, 72, of Oshkosh was about two miles away near Deer Lake with a party of about 20 other hunters when they heard sirens, planes and helicopters and discovered roads in the area had been barricaded.

"When you're hunting, you don't expect somebody to try to shoot you and murder you," Wagner said. "You have no idea who is coming up to you."

"We're all old, dyed-in-wool hunters," he said. "We wouldn't go home because of this, but we will keep it in our minds. We're not forgetting it."



Copyright 2004 The Associated Press.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 12:13
THE VICTIMS

People killed:
Bob Crotteau
Joe Crotteau
Mark Riodt
names of other two victims unconfirmed

Survivors:
Denny Drew
Lauren Hesebeck
Terry Willers

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 12:19
Hospital officials said Drew was shot in the abdomen and suffered extensive internal injuries. However, they added that all of his vital organs are working properly.

Hesebeck was shot in the shoulder and arm, hospital officials said, and suffered no serious injuries to vital structures.

The third victim, identified by Lakeview hospital officials as Terry Willers, was in critical condition at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield. He suffered a gunshot wound to the neck and shoulders.



Rice Lake Hunters Survivors and Victims Fund
Dairy State Bank
16 S. Main St.
Rice Lake, WI 54868

cliffy109
November 22, 2004, 12:29
Thanks for the updates. Man this is sad. News stories normally don't hit me in the gut like this one does. I usually don't feel any attachment, even to tragedies, but this one is different to me for some reason.

Sig220
November 22, 2004, 12:44
EM said,

"Well, so much for the oft-voiced theory that deer hunters would be a formidable force in an insurgency/Red Dawn scenario. "

I really don't think this incident is reflective on a "insurgency/Red Dawn scenario".

For example, you don't expect a fellow hunter to shoot you when you approach to talk to them. I think there would be different expectations in an insurgency/Red Dawm scenario.

But it does bring up a question.

If you are hunting......lets say open or public land and get shot at, from a near sighted person who is shooting at bushes, movement w/o positive target ID, how many shots/misses are you going give before returning fire?


As far as the original incident, the details are emerging that change the image of what happened. First, it was that he was in a stand and shot hunters as they came into range, but now it is said that he went to ground and actually chased his victims down? Glad I carry a few extra rounds with me when I hunt.

racer766
November 22, 2004, 12:47
Was this idiot a US citizen?

carguym14
November 22, 2004, 12:57
The news this morning was talking "assault rifle" right off the bat.Is it legal to hunt with an SKS there?

Archon
November 22, 2004, 13:01
Same story but reported by ESPN

http://espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/2004/1121/1928765.html

I wonder who started shooting first?

rajohns
November 22, 2004, 14:17
Yes,it is legal to hunt here in Wi. with an SKS,or AK,AR,FAL. We have no mag. capacity limits yet. After this now, we probably will. Thanks alot to this eFFen moron.:mad:

SoManyGun'sSoLittleTime
November 22, 2004, 14:54
I have been hunting since i was 16 i turn 22 this december. In this short amount of time i have seen the stupidity of at least 10-15 different people!

this is the list of stupidity i have had happen year after year

1 several times i have been in someone's scope ( ge i must look like a rare breed of deer that walks on two legs) had 1 guy that did this to me several times (in one season) so i told the guy to buy some @#*% binoculars. he then ask's why? I told him it might save his life one day!

2 (was with my dad for this one) dad had just downed a nice fork we get to where the fork is sit down for a second and have a shot go flying through the trees above our heads. came from the road.:mad:

3 had some s#*$ for brains hunter shoot the crap out of the brush real close to where i was because the brush made a noise (3rd time being shot at same reason) i had enough and pumped 40 rnds into the trees:fal:

standard equip for deer hunting 1 fal 20rnds of soft points (6 20rnd mags filled with fmj's wich are my just in case STUPID PEOPLE MAGS )

cliffy109
November 22, 2004, 15:12
Originally posted by SoManyGun'sSoLittleTime

standard equip for deer hunting 1 fal 20rnds of soft points (6 20rnd mags filled with fmj's wich are my just in case STUPID PEOPLE MAGS )

140 rounds of ammo on you when hunting? Holy crap! That's a hell of a load.

The first thing I thought when reading this story was that the entire thing could have been put to rest pretty quickly with one carefully placed shot. It seems there was only one rifle present for the 8 casualties and likely, it was possessed by an early casualty. I know one doesn't normally think tactically when hunting, but obviously, that was a mistake in this situation.

By the way... some of you folks need to find safer hunting grounds.

olsarg
November 22, 2004, 15:23
I know that times are bad is Wisconsin but only one Rifle and 8 hunters something is wrong there Let me guess they only had 8 bullets. one for each deer. Also I'd like to hear the hmongs side before I comment. We had some locals here play cowboys and indians with some hmong campers..When they started shooting up the hmongs tents and stuff they fought back. Not as much fun then.

Sword of Laban
November 22, 2004, 16:16
My joke about dodging NVA and VC patrols while hunting just lost its humor.

I stopped hunting rifle season a few years ago here in Oregon after setting up on a couple good cuts and having a group of eight Vietnamese tromp through one time an a larger group another time. Loud dumbdicks and the deer aren’t worth getting lit up for. Bow season is still good. If I do rifle hunt again it will be in a group with FAL’s.

Wadman
November 22, 2004, 16:26
Yup, that's the first thing I saw when I logged on to the MSN website.

A hunter kills people with an SKS assault-style rifle . They couldn't just say some guy wigged out.

BRM308
November 22, 2004, 16:33
Rumor has it, THIS IS A RUMOR, that the shooter is a Hmung. The Wisconsin DNR has had a huge problem with these guys hunting out of seaon, poaching, using unconventional means, etc. At the SE end of the state there is a problem with the Russian and Ukranian emigres over hunting and fishing.

bausch
November 22, 2004, 16:41
Immigration strikes again Zipperhead asshole

bykerhd
November 22, 2004, 16:58
An article I read said the guy came down out of the tree and was walking away when he suddenly turned and began firing.

olsarg
November 22, 2004, 17:40
the suspect is a Naturalized citizen who speaks good english. Maybe we should wait and see what set him off. Possibly the hunting party thought he was another damn stupid Hmong.

gman552
November 22, 2004, 17:42
Originally posted by bausch
Immigration strikes again Zipperhead asshole

Thanks for your wonderful insight :rolleyes:

Isn't "Bausch" a German name?

I'm sure you'd feel better if the shooter looked like these All-American boys:

Charles Whitman:

http://img39.exs.cx/img39/2930/CharlesWhitman1.jpg

George Hennard:

http://img39.exs.cx/img39/6362/GeorgeHennard.jpg

My point is, murderous assholes comes in all colors, shapes, and sizes - I say "Rule .303" for all of them.

Mark214, thanks for the info on the survivors' and victims' fund.

Archon
November 22, 2004, 18:54
Originally posted by bausch
Immigration strikes again

Yup, you're here. :uhoh:

Archon
November 22, 2004, 19:03
I'd like to hear his side of the story too. My first thoughts were of outrage, but then I remebered how I've been treated by some "good old boys" and decided to wait for more details.

Someone posted an update to the story which changes the course of events a bit. I guess we'll see. Either way, the Media and Gun Grabbers will have their fun with this one.

ultramagbrion
November 22, 2004, 19:25
Yeah...........It wont be long before the media screems "SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU LIFTED THE AWB " !!!!!

Im sure it will get turned into a Racialy Motivated Hate-Crime and the man was defending himself or something stupid like that.

bausch
November 22, 2004, 19:26
Yup it WAS German now its AMERICAN just like my great great granddaddy who changed his name from Franz to Frank and never looked back.
Now tell me about the new immigrants who refuse to even learn our language.
So unless you are a native American ?

alFALfa
November 22, 2004, 19:34
Local news (channel 4 - Milwaukee) just stated the shooter was in the country 25 years and served in the US Army at one time.

The Sawyer County sheriff came on and made a statement that the rifle had a 20-round magazine and it was empty.

After hearing about this story, this morning I went out to the Brady Bunch website and sure enough, had a statement which implied that this (and other crimes) happened because the "assault weapon" ban expired last September.

JAB75
November 22, 2004, 19:57
Autumn traditon turns deadly.... (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6551094/)

Excerpts:

Police identified the suspect as Chai Vang, 36, a hunter from St. Paul, Minn., who is a member of the Twin Cities’ Hmong community. While authorities do not know why he allegedly opened fire, there have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region.


“It’s pathetic. They let all these foreigners in here, and they walk all over everybody’s property,” said Jim Arneberg, owner of the Haugen Inn in nearby Haugen.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently, he did not like being told to get the hell off of private property.


I'll stick to muzzleloading.

-JAB75

rajohns
November 22, 2004, 19:59
Rusk co. Sheriff's dept. is looking for two more men in his hunting party who have disappeared. When he turned around as if to walk away,he took the scope off the rifle then turned and fired on the two hunters who confronted him about being on private property. Investigators found 20 rnds. total were fired by him,witnesses said he reloaded once. That means standard SKS,doesn't it? The other people in the hunting group were called by one wounded man on a radio, and went to the stand area where they were fired upon as they arrived. One other hunting rifle was found at the scene,apparently belonging to one of the first two hunters. I'll keep you posted when I can find more details. My brother & nephews were about 3mi. away from the incident.

hawkman
November 22, 2004, 20:11
I think we will see this unfortunate and isolated incident blown out of proportion and used by the anti's as fodder for trying to push through another weapons ban that will be more onerous than the previous one that expired 2 months ago.

Unfortunately they will try to make it look like this happened on the heels of the AWB expiration and is directly attributable to that expiration. The "Streets will run red with blood because of the easy availability of assaul weapons" BS.

Somehow the leftist propaganda that we are sure to see needs to be met with some sort of counter information. But naturally the major networks will never air the truth. Only that which furthers their leftist dogma.

I know that neither WCCO nor KSTP in Minneapolis will air the truth; I lived in Mpls for several years and saw their ideology first hand. The same with the (Red) Star And Tribune fish wrapper.

Rant mode off.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 20:12
Originally posted by mark214

Focusing on the firearm not the criminal:

MILWAUKEE -- The semiautomatic rifle used in the fatal shooting of five northwestern Wisconsin hunters is becoming increasingly popular with hunters in the Northwoods, a state warden said.



I would expect as much from Milwaukee and Mineapolis. Mark, we've got to get you to read some less conspicuous news sources...

:angel:

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 20:18
Originally posted by hawkman
I think we will see this unfortunate and isolated incident blown out of proportion and used by the anti's as fodder for trying to push through another weapons ban that will be more onerous than the previous one that expired 2 months ago.

Unfortunately they will try to make it look like this happened on the heels of the AWB expiration and is directly attributable to that expiration. The "Streets will run red with blood because of the easy availability of assaul weapons" BS.

Somehow the leftist propaganda that we are sure to see needs to be met with some sort of counter information. But naturally the major networks will never air the truth. Only that which furthers their leftist dogma.

I know that neither WCCO nor KSTP in Minneapolis will air the truth; I lived in Mpls for several years and saw their ideology first hand. The same with the (Red) Star And Tribune fish wrapper.

Rant mode off.


Agreed.

motosapien
November 22, 2004, 20:47
The guy on the radio failed to warn his fellows of the danger. Although understandable after being shot, it is none the less an awful circumstance. I wonder if the military/police give training to avoid this situation?

Showing up at a rifle fight without a rifle has really got to suck.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 21:11
The victim in critical condition has died. Now six dead and only two wounded.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 21:16
Originally posted by mark214
You are right, I usually depend on the newspapers from the peoples republic of Madison for the real truth and how I should think.:rolleyes:

Wow. Lighten. Up.

Cripes.

Gremper
November 22, 2004, 21:25
Originally posted by darkknight9
Zeigle said the suspect was "chasing after them and killing them," with a SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle, a common hunting weapon. Wisconsin's statewide deer gun hunting season started Saturday and lasts for nine days.

About 20 shots were fired but it was unclear if any of the hunters had fired at the suspect or who might have shot first, Zeigle said. There was just one gun among the eight people killed or wounded, he said.

Running to the sound of the guns.....UNARMED?

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 21:35
"Snips" from news reports (here comes the race comments)

The St. Paul Pioneer Press reported on Monday that Hmong hunters have complained about being harassed by other hunters in the past, and Minnesota has assigned Hmong officers to ease the situation. There may be a culture gap between other hunters and the Hmong, who were accustomed in Laos to hunt wherever they wanted instead of seeking permission to go on private property, the newspaper said.

About 75,000 Hmong have settled in Minnesota in the last 30 years. The majority in St. Paul,

Minnesota Hmong fear backlash after Wisconsin shooting

ST. PAUL - The arrest of a Hmong-American in the shootings of eight hunters in northwest Wisconsin left some Hmong citizens in his hometown fearful of a backlash.

"This is a very tragic event," Michael Yang, a Hmong activist, said. "This hurts all of us."

In St. Paul, home to more Hmong than any other American city, Sunday's shootings that killed five and wounded three others hit hard.

Ying Vang, executive director of the Lao Family Community of Minnesota in St. Paul, said he fielded 35 to 40 calls Monday from Hmong residents who are worried about reaction to the shooting.

"They told me, 'We are here to stay, and when such a tragedy happens, the American citizens look at us differently than they did before,'" Vang said.

Yang said various Hmong groups held an emergency meeting Monday to talk about how to respond. Several Hmong hunters were invited to the meeting, he said, and some told stories about friction with white hunters.

Investigators in Wisconsin said Chai Vang, 36, opened fire on hunters after they told him to leave a deer stand that was on private property. Pressed for a reason for the violence, investigators said they simply didn't know.

"The action makes no sense," Sawyer County (Wis.) Sheriff James Meier said.

Ilean Her, director of the St. Paul-based Council on Asian Pacific Minnesotans, said conflicts between white hunters and Hmong hunters aren't new. She recalled an incident about five years ago near Rochester, Minn., when Hmong hunters were involved in a fistfight after crossing onto private land to hunt.

"This doesn't come as that much of a surprise," Her said. "What surprised me was the level of violence involved."

Her said "lots of people" in the Hmong community are empathizing with Vang.

"So many people in the community were like, 'Well, let's try to listen to the story the way that this man is being treated,'" she said. "Why did he feel like he had to shoot them? ... If it's just one against so many, what did they do to him that made him a threat?"

State Sen. Mee Moua, one of two Hmong legislators in Minnesota, rejected the idea that cultural differences or racism played any role in the shooting.

"He's probably crazy," she said.

She acknowledged that Hmong-Americans feel racism on a daily basis, but "that doesn't mean you kill people."

"We're all just speculating that may have been a trigger for him," Moua said. "We're all searching for answers. But as we're doing that search, speculation is just speculation."

Mark Johnson, executive director of the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association, said he hadn't heard of widespread conflict between Hmong hunters and others.

"In this case, you have a private land issue," he said. "I haven't walked in his shoes. My understanding of what he as a Hmong has gone through is nil. I can try to understand, but I don't."

Johnson said the private land issue, in particular, has been a growing source of conflict as land available for public hunting is lost to development.

He said he's had a couple of meetings with the Hmong community to try to increase understanding on both sides, especially because the Hmong community is probably the biggest minority hunting group in Minnesota.

Minnesota and Wisconsin have large concentrations of Hmong, immigrants from southeast Asia with a long tradition of hunting. Both states have hired conservation officers and others with southeast Asian backgrounds to help educate newcomers on dealing with regulations.

But Vang didn't appear to be a neophyte. He's held hunting licenses in Minnesota since 2000, and had a valid firearms license this year in Wisconsin too. In Minnesota, he also had a deer archery license and small game license, used for hunting pheasant, grouse and squirrel, for instance.

In Minnesota, he was cited once, in 2001, for a fishing violation when he took 93 crappies more than the legal limit.

People who know Vang said he loves to hunt, Her said: "He is a hunting zealot."

When Yang, the Hmong activist, was reached Monday, his cell phone was nearly dead. He said it had been ringing nonstop since Sunday afternoon, with callers concerned about the shooting. The groups at the emergency meeting planned to present a unified message at a news conference Tuesday, he said.

"I am fearful of misunderstanding," Yang said. "That's why the group came together. It's how we can help this community, we can reassure the community - the community as a whole. We are part of a single community."

Le Phan, a Vietnamese American who owns a car repair shop in St. Paul, is familiar with the area of the shootings, about 135 miles northeast of the Twin Cities.

Phan owns a lake cabin not far away near Hayward, Wis., and said he's enjoyed frequent visits there with his wife and four children for the past five years.

Now, Phan said, "I hesitate to go up there as a minority. I'm a little afraid. I don't want people to see us and isolate us."

Police identified the shooter as Chai Vang, 36, a hunter from St. Paul, Minnesota, who is a member of the Twin Cities' Hmong community. While authorities do not know why he allegedly opened fire, there have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region.

Locals have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit. In Minnesota, a fistfight once broke out after Hmong hunters crossed onto private land, said Ilean Her, director of the St. Paul-based Council on Asian Pacific Minnesotans.

Her said she has heard from some people in St. Paul's Hmong community who said they knew Vang, though not well. About 24,000 Hmong (pronounced "mung") live in St. Paul, the highest concentration of any U.S. city.

"They said he loves to hunt," Her said. "He is a hunting zealot."

Meier said Vang was on the wrong tree stand because he had become lost and wandered unknowingly onto private property. The county has thousands of acres of public hunting land. Vang spoke good English and investigators said he was cooperating. The sheriff said he was "extremely calm."

The arrest has left some Hmong citizens in his hometown fearful of a backlash. Michael Yang, a Hmong activist, said various Hmong groups held an emergency meeting Monday to talk about how to respond. Those at the meeting heard stories from some Hmong hunters about friction with white hunters.

The shooting has already provoked racial tension in an area of Wisconsin where deer hunting is steeped in tradition.

"It's pathetic. They let all these foreigners in here, and they walk all over everybody's property," said Jim Arneberg, owner of the Haugen Inn in nearby Haugen.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 21:38
Originally posted by Gremper


Running to the sound of the guns.....UNARMED?

Indeed. I remember being kicked in the butt....not figuratively either....for not bringing my weapon out with me during shooting hours to help retreive another hunters deer. Why on earth anybody with a license would not be carrying something during season is beyond me.

v188
November 22, 2004, 22:04
I only hunt in Nebraska, but it appears there is no ammunition limit on your firearms in Wisconsin.

Are most states like mine with a limit of rounds allowed in your rifle, or like WI that allow anything, up to and including I guess a Meta mag?

Nobody hunts with an SKS in Nebr, at least I've never seen it.

crazyk2758
November 22, 2004, 22:13
You know I am really sick and tired of the knee jerk reactions of some of you on this board. This is a situation that goes beyond just the "slope, chink, gook" bashing that goes on this board.

I appreciate that many of you are Vietnam vets and "little brown mother-fu**ers shooting at me".

Let's look at the facts.

No one here on the board was on the ground when it happened.
I am a "slope, chink, gook" by many of your definitions so ease up with the pejorative terms.
Vang was naturalized. Read that again. Means citizen. Just like my parents and many of your forebears. It has to start with one.
He speaks English well. This does not mean he gets along with everyone. Hey, my dad would have been a charter member of the local KKK chapter if he had been white. But then again he hated everyone.
My point is this. Until we hear from the people on the ground at the time of this unfortunate incident, we can speculate till the cows come home, but it will still be conjecture. I propose we wait and see what develops and stop making broad, general and sweeping conclusions based on conjecture or opinion. Gee sounds like what most libs do, doesn't it?

As always my $.02.

darkknight9
November 22, 2004, 22:15
Originally posted by v188
I only hunt in Nebraska, but it appears there is no ammunition limit on your firearms in Wisconsin.

Are most states like mine with a limit of rounds allowed in your rifle, or like WI that allow anything, up to and including I guess a Meta mag?

Nobody hunts with an SKS in Nebr, at least I've never seen it.

My first hunt was in MN, with an sks. That very sks I had to sell later in life for money for books for school, has made the rounds between friends, and will be accompanying me tomorrow- the friend that now owns it is driving.

No limit in MN or WI. Restrictions on ammo are limited to caliber and usage of soft points in both states.

gman552
November 22, 2004, 22:32
Bausch, good point on immigrants not learning the language or not figuring out that one doesn't hunt on private property without permission.

However, the shooter speaks good English, has hunted for several years and has hunting licenses in Wisconsin and Minnesota.

Maybe he's just a homicidal asshole, regardless of his ethnic origin. Or maybe he's going to claim self-defense, which, at this point, looks pretty unlikely.

Perhaps he's going to claim that "the Man was puttin' me down" :rolleyes:

Enough. I hope that justice will be served, the survivors recover both physically and mentally, and the relatives of those who were killed will be comforted (cold comfort though that may be) :(

rajohns
November 22, 2004, 22:52
A sixth hunter has now died of his injuries from the shooting. The shooter goes to court tomorrow. He was once in service for the U.S. army & was 36yrs. old.

FAL_FREAK
November 23, 2004, 01:38
It is truely sad that there are wackos in the world like this.

At least USA Today didn't list the weapon as a "high-powered assault rifle" as my local paper did. Sigh.... time to draft a letter to the editor.

MACV
November 23, 2004, 11:29
I hunted with my SKS this year in Missouri. We have a ten round limit in firearms and it must be an expandable type bullet. My SKS is handy, carries well on my quad runner, and I dont have to worry about dropping it and getting it scratched up. The ballistics are a little lighter than a 30-30 but enough punch for white tail deer. Also a nice weapon to have if some dumbass takes a pot shot at you. There are more than a few dope growers and Meth makers running around in the woods of Mo.

TrooperDan
November 23, 2004, 11:45
I've already had a liberal democrat co-worker come up to me and say, "Well Bush can add something else to his resume", meaning the six deaths in Minnesota where the crazy "hunter" used an SKS. I explainged to him the SKS wasn't an evil assualt weapon and the recent ban that expired hadn't suddenly made it avaialble once again.

TV and Associated Press are both calling the SKS used an "assualt weapon" that held 20 rounds. They use a generic picture that shows the standard 10 round magazine. Does anyone know if the actual rifle used had a 20 round magazine?

And does anyone know how to send an email to the Associated Press explaining the errors they are making?

cheif61
November 23, 2004, 11:50
http://www.hayward-wi.com/ Local news link. AP just picking and choosing for shock effect.

TrooperDan
November 23, 2004, 15:21
Vang is now saying that they shot at him first, after threatening him and making racial comments. Apparently, there was only one rifle among the eight victims that were shot; I'd love to know if it had been fired when it was recovered! And I'd like to know if Vang's SKS had been modified with a twenty round magazine.

darkknight9
November 23, 2004, 15:25
From local news (http://www.kare11.com)

Vang Says Hunters Shot First




A man suspected in the killings of six hunters told investigators he began firing after he was shot at first and some of the victims called him racially derogatory names, according to documents filed Tuesday.

A judge set bail at $2.5 million for Chai Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minn., who is suspected in the killings Sunday of six deer hunters and the wounding of two others.

Bail was set after investigators filed documents arguing there was probable cause to hold Vang in the shootings. No charges have been filed.

Vang, a Hmong immigrant from Laos, was arrested Sunday about four hours after the shootings as he emerged from the woods with his empty SKS 7.62 mm semiautomatic rifle.

Sawyer County Sheriff Jim Meier said a dispute over Vang's use of a tree stand -- a raised platform used by hunters -- on private property preceded the gunfire.

Vang told investigators he didn't realize he was on private property when he climbed the tree stand, according to the probable-cause statement released Tuesday.

A hunter approached Vang to tell him he was on private property, and Vang started to leave as other hunters approached, the statement said. Vang said the hunters surrounded him, and some started calling him racial slurs.

Vang said he started walking away but looked back to see the first hunter point his rifle at him and then fire a shot that hit the ground 30 to 40 feet behind him, the statement said.

That's when Vang told investigators he started firing at the group, and some fell to the ground and others tried to run away, according to the statement.

Five people died at the scene and a sixth died Monday in a hospital. Two others were wounded. The dead were identified as the landowner, Robert Crotteau, 42; his son Joey, 20; Al Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Jessica Willers, 27; and Denny Drew, 55, who died Monday at St. Joseph's Hospital in Marshfield. Willers' father, Terry Willers, remained hospitalized Tuesday in fair condition, while the other wounded hunter was released.

Officials said the victims were part of a group of 14 or 15 who made their opening-weekend trip to the 400-acre property an annual tradition.

"This was his first time out with that group. He was delighted to be invited," said Karen Roidt, mother of victim Mark Roidt.

According to an account by authorities Monday, two or three hunters spotted a man on a hunting platform on Crotteau's land. The men radioed to the rest of their hunting party to ask if the platform should be occupied or empty. They were told no one should be there.

One of the men approached the intruder and asked him to leave, as Crotteau and the others in the cabin hopped on their all-terrain vehicles and headed to the scene, according to the account.

"The suspect got down from the deer stand, walked 40 yards, fiddled with his rifle. He took the scope off his rifle, he turned and he opened fire on the group," Meier said.

One of the men called for help on his radio, and those who arrived to help also were shot, authorities said.

He was "chasing after them and killing them," Deputy Tim Zeigle said. "He hunted them down." There was only one firearm among the eight hunters and it was unclear whether anyone returned fire, authorities had said.

Some Hmong leaders had questioned whether racial differences may have figured in the shootings.

Sang Vang said his family was devastated, and that his brother has lived in the United States for more than 20 years and is a U.S. Army veteran.

Minneapolis police said they arrested Vang on Christmas Eve 2001 after he waved a gun and threatened to kill his wife. No charge was brought because she didn't cooperate with authorities, spokesman Ron Reier said. Police in St. Paul said there had been two domestic violence calls to his home in the past year, but both were resolved without incident.

There have been previous clashes between Southeast Asian and white hunters in the region. Locals in the Birchwood area, about 120 miles northeast of the Twin Cities, have complained that the Hmong, refugees from Laos, do not understand the concept of private property and hunt wherever they see fit.

Vang's arrest left some Hmong citizens in his hometown fearful of a backlash, and a group of Hmong leaders in St. Paul condemned the shootings Tuesday and offered condolences to victims' families.

"What happened in Wisconsin is in no way representative of the Hmong people and what they stand for," said Cha Vang, who said he was representing "the greater law-abiding Hmong community." He is no relation to Chai Vang.

About 24,000 Hmong live in St. Paul, the highest concentration of any U.S. city. And the shooting has already provoked racial tension in an area of Wisconsin where deer hunting is steeped in tradition.

Minnesota state Sen. Mee Moua rejected the idea that cultural differences played any role in the shooting.

"We're all just speculating that may have been a trigger for him," said Moua, who is Hmong. "We're all searching for answers."

darkknight9
November 23, 2004, 15:27
I still think the following is the best quote for a handle on the situation:

A Minnesota lawmaker who's also an immigrant from Laos says reports that cultural differences played a role in the shooting are probably wrong. In her words, "He's probably crazy."

gman552
November 23, 2004, 16:31
"Self-defense"?

Even if what he says about being shot at first was true, it's kind of hard to claim self-defense when you shoot the people responding to the calls of the first victims.

Here's an interesting article:

Suspect's alleged actions at odds with reputation (St. Paul Pioneer Press) (http://www.twincities.com/mld/pioneerpress/news/local/10250162.htm)

ThunderGod
November 23, 2004, 17:05
Listen to the "White Guilt" in this statement by a neighbor:

Charlie Golden-Black, who lives across the street from Chai Soua Vang, said her neighbors were quiet and kept to themselves. She said she pictured him Monday as she often saw him — leaving his house in a suede jacket and dress pants.

"Shame on us for letting this happen," Golden-Black said. "Maybe there was something we could have said to this man. We have been working diligently to try to turn this neighborhood around. I just can't get over it. It's kind of scary. How can anybody that appears to be fairly normal, clean-cut account for killing (six) people?"



I have a hard time believing that the other hunters shot first, although they prolly did let loose some racial ephitets. No reason to kill over, let alone chase anybody down. That's where I have the most problems with the story and the killer's version. If it was self-defense, why shoot the unarmed? Did they all try to pick up that one rifle they had between all 8 of them? BS, guy snapped, killed fellow Americans over nothing.:sad:

motosapien
November 23, 2004, 17:25
May be something to do with his being lost. That can really freak some people out. I worked on a survey crew years ago and we had to hike a couple miles out of the woods in the dark. Kept losing our line and one of the guys wigged out. We lit some birch bark every so often to keep him calm.

Just no telling what set him off. Maybe he was hoping for some help from the guys and got a harsh treatment instead. If one of the wounded people was one of the first two on the scene, perhaps they will shed some light on it.

ultramagbrion
November 24, 2004, 05:04
I knew the racial BS would get thrown in sooner or later.:rolleyes:

The ol' STICKS and STONES thing comes to mind right away.

And one gun between eight people? WTF? How can Vang claim self defense:?

Now......IF one of the(land owner's) party fired first,then MAYBE you have grounds to return fire
legaly.........hell if someone shoots at me Im shootin back......NO IFS, ANDS, or BUTS!! Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
However.........due to the lack of victims weapons,and the fact that the responders(un-armed) were fired on, upon ariving at the crime scene..........I doubt that Vang will have a prayer in hell without Johnnie Cochran at his table.
My guess(and yes ....its a VERY un-educated guess) is he was surrounded by a bunch of local good-ol-boys and felt VERY threatened by their words and actions and snapped,un-justifiably,and went postal with an antique assault rifle.

But as numerous posters have already stated..........more info will be needed before you can really know what went on,and we may never know the real story.This will be in the news for a LONG,LONG time before,and after,the verdict is in,and likely be turned into an even larger mess by all the minority groups crying HATE CRIME !!!(...see my sig line....)
Count on a few more states outlawing assault weapons as hunting rifles,and hi-cap mags too.Alot of states already have 5 round limits.

Either way it gets judged.........Id hate to be hunting in that neck of the woods without a few friends and a few hundred rounds:(

slakline
November 24, 2004, 11:11
It would seem there may be some uncertainty on the weapon that was actually owned by Chang. There is some conversation over at the one of the SKS boards that the rifle belonging to Chang is actually the Saiga AK. This report is based on a contradictory police report filed as the weapon being a "Saiga SKS" of which we all know is not being produced by Saiga.

I have not seen the report or any picture of the actual rifle in the shootings, but if that rifle has "Saiga" anywhere imprinted on the receiver, then it was not an SKS as reported nationally.

I'm one of the feeling that whether it was an SKS or the Saiga AK, it doesn't really matter to those who will try to use this incident as fodder for a New More Complete Assualt Rifle Ban.

I for one, would much rather have the focus the investigation on the "who" and "why", not the weapon. Whether it was a steak knife or a mini gun is not the issue, the focus should be on the individual(s) involved, not justice sought against the rifle in question. However, accuracy of the evidence presented should be factual.

Here's the link:

http://www.sksboards.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16101
Survivor's SKS Boards :: View topic - 6 hunters shot dead with Saiga hunting rifle *UPDATED*

Archon
November 24, 2004, 14:01
How was he supposed to know there was only one gun in the group? One person versus a group of people which might have fired off a shot in his direction, how would any of us react? The consensus on this board has been, "Shoot first, let God sort them out". As for chasing people down, how do we know that's what happened? How did he know they were not going for their weapons?

There are a lot more questions than answers right now, so let’s hear what has to be said before condemning him. The reason most of us own guns and stand up for our rights to own them is for self defense. Let’s see if this is the case.

prosecond
November 24, 2004, 15:07
I do not understand why people call for a limit on the number of rounds your gun can hold while hunting or any other time. Why would it matter if the guy wants a beta-c mag? So what. If you follow the bag limit tell me how it matters. Just stupid hunters agreeing with gun control.

bausch
November 24, 2004, 15:22
And the beat goes on and the beat goes on

Sig220
November 24, 2004, 16:24
Archon,
I agree, the answer will come when the facts are sorted out. But, the latest is that this guy is also being investigated for the death of a hunter in 2001 (I believe) about 80 miles south of the latest incident where the suspects pretty well match him and a couple of his friends.

Remember Vang "went hunting" with two friends. These two friends have not been interviewed by authorities as they have not shown up yet. When the other hunter was killed (shot in the back) the suspects were 3 Asian males. This ought to ring some bells that something aint right.

We might have to wait for the trial for all the facts to come out, but I would venture a bet that the casings from Vang's rifle were not all in the same area and are indicative that after his initial volley he closed on his victims.

Sig220
November 24, 2004, 16:46
Just ran across this update in the news:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=10&u=/ap/20041124/ap_on_re_us/hunters_shot

Did not want to quote the whole article but thought this was interesting:

"Both accounts agreed that Vang shot the others as more people from the deer camp arrived at the scene, summoned by Hesebeck using a walkie-talkie to call for help.


Vang said he continued firing as the group scattered, and at one point chased one of the hunters and shot him in the back, only to find the man had no gun, the document states. "

Archon
November 24, 2004, 17:06
I didn't see the part about him saying he chased down one of the hunters and shot him.

Can't wait to hear more developments.

gman552
November 24, 2004, 17:08
Looks like it's time for "Rule .303"

I wonder if he decided to amuse himself by popping his two missing buddies - perhaps they didn't feel like killing people, so he did them in?

Then he could say that he got separated from them - "Aw, shucks, I dunno what happened to them, I got lost."

"Three can keep a secret if two are dead" - Russian proverb.

Archon
November 24, 2004, 17:19
Originally posted by mark214
Vang in HIS statement admits chasing an unarmed 20 year old who was yelling for help and SHOT HIM IN THE BACK.
Came back and said your not dead? and fired another round.
These are statements made by Vang the murderer.

As copied from yahoo news link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=718&e=10&u=/ap/20041124/ap_on_re_us/hunters_shot)
Vang said he continued firing as the group scattered, and at one point chased one of the hunters and shot him in the back, only to find the man had no gun

Two quotes about the same moment. The second quote says nothing about coming back and shooting the injured hunter. Am I missing somthing or is one news source adding wood to the fire?

I can't wait to read unedited statements from both sides.

Palerider
November 24, 2004, 19:49
It doesn't make any sense that after being warned of the shooting by the an initial victim via walkie talkie that all of the responding (hunters) would show up unarmed.
In fact, for hunters, riding in on their hunting equiped ATV's to arrive unarmed is beyond any stretch of the imagination when they were forewarned of the gunfight.
I would hope that the corpses and survivors would be swabbed for nitrite residue on their extremities.
It should also be looked into by the forensics whether or not any 'preparation' of the crime scene had occurred prior to arrival of the authorities. I would want to know where the hunters' rifles were - (back at the cabin?).

Pale

Hail Mary
November 24, 2004, 20:58
All depends whose news feed you read. Some have the hunters all armed; some only have the ones on the mules armed; some have only one gun. Any hunter here would know that you don't share your gun on a hunt so I can't see how eight people would have one gun. But then the man at the local gun store always said that after you shoot them, always put every gun away except for the obvious one so you don't appear as the aggressor.


Anybody know exactly what kind of gun? Some feeds have SKS, some have Saiga. If a Saiga, what was the caliber? Maybe it's time to start buying just in case there's a run on this particular model?

olsarg
November 24, 2004, 21:29
Due prossess no way the govenor is already against him only got 25,000 hmong in state more democrat hunters than that. go for the votes. hell the story smells all around. 2 or 3 guys show up to run him off no rifles on opening day sure. Why don't we wait till they get the tracks finished.

Hebrew Battle Rifle
November 25, 2004, 02:44
The other members of my hunting club have on occasion given me a look of suspicion when I put a full mag into my F A L along with an additional full mag in my coat as I am heading for the stand. Maybe now they won't think it so odd.

RRotz
November 25, 2004, 03:50
1 rifle among 8 cheeseheads on opening day of hunting season.........SUUUUUURE.

RRotz
November 25, 2004, 03:52
Originally posted by crazyk2758
You know I am really sick and tired of the knee jerk reactions of some of you on this board. This is a situation that goes beyond just the "slope, chink, gook" bashing that goes on this board.

I appreciate that many of you are Vietnam vets and "little brown mother-fu**ers shooting at me".



Us chinks gotta stick together.

Those silly little gooks kicked honky ass in Vietnam.

:wink:

ultramagbrion
November 25, 2004, 05:53
Originally posted by RRotz


Us chinks gotta stick together.

Those silly little gooks kicked honky ass in Vietnam.

:wink:


Must you ALWAYS douse yourself with gas before you try to light these fires?:confused: The putrid smell of your burnt ass in these threads is stinking this forum up.

sf46
November 25, 2004, 10:05
I think the guy was out looking for trouble. Just climbing in someone's deer stand shows he knew he was on someone else's property. How many public hunting reserves have deer stands set up for the public's use. Then you hear the reports of past problems between Asian hunters and the locals in the area.

Where I live the whole incident would have ended up with a small article in the paper about a missing Asian man who never came back after going hunting.

the gman
November 25, 2004, 14:10
Having read all this so far & Vang's statement, I have a few questions for all you "where were the hunter's guns types";

1. Why was Vang unhurt if there were so many guys around with guns? He manages to kill all those folks, including a woman & no-one so much as grazes him with a bullet?

2. He admits in his statement to returning to kill the wounded man, what part of murder don't you understand? (RRatz, you should know the answer to that one, given your assertion that the marine in Falluga is guilty of that exact act?):devil:

You don't kill that many people in self defence, IMHO, especially when they are running away from you screaming for help, he is just one of those folks who needs to be removed from the gene pool & I don't care what colour, race or creed he is, murdering SOB is all I can see.:redface:

RRotz
November 25, 2004, 17:13
Originally posted by the gman


2. He admits in his statement to returning to kill the wounded man, what part of murder don't you understand? (RRatz, you should know the answer to that one, given your assertion that the marine in Falluga is guilty of that exact act?):devil:



Where did I say anything about it not being Murder?

Murder? YES.

Justified? No.

Self Defense? Maybe......

the gman
November 25, 2004, 19:48
Self Defence??:rofl: :rofl: Check the thread in RKBA about that exact subject. Just so you understand, when the perceived threat turns & runs away, you are no longer in immediate danger & thus your reason for self defence has disappeared. Check his statement for the facts as he sees them, he even admits that they were running away from him. Just as you did with the marine, I'm calling this murder, 'cuz that's my opinion.

Any asshole that stinks up the noble art of hunting by doing crap like this deserves to be neck shot right outside the jail after his trial.:devil:

gman552
November 25, 2004, 19:49
Self-defense? "Maybe"?

There's no "maybe" about it, given what we have heard - once Vang was no longer in a situation (if it ever existed) where he was in "imminent and unavoidable threat of death or severe bodily harm", he should have stopped shooting.

From his own mouth, Vang stated that, among other people he shot:

- He chased one man down and shot him in the back from 15-20 feet (Joey Crotteau)

- Shot two people off an ATV, one of whom he says was removing a gun from his shoulder (Allan Laski and Jessica Willers.)

I'm not an attorney, but it seems to me that whatever claim to self-defense he may have had evaporated with these events. Sounds to me like he was trying to get rid of witnesses :mad:

SoManyGun'sSoLittleTime
November 25, 2004, 20:01
The above post hit the nail sguare on the head!!! FRY HIM !!

RRotz
November 25, 2004, 22:54
So, if a group of gangbangers start threatening you in the hood, one of them pulls a gun and you are armed too......you are only justified in shooting the one who pulls a gun? Then what? Let the rest of them jump you and beat you to death? Or do you give them all a taste of vigilante justice?

Ok, so maybe some of them scatter and run away. Do you stop and think.....hmmm.......this one is running away to get a gun? A threat is a threat. Deal with them like the Marines in Fallujah. What if that kid was playing possum and could have pulled a handgun? Finish him off, right?

Some of you cheer on a Marine who kills an unarmed man then turn around and condemn this nutcase for doing the same thing. I don't care if some of you want to live a life of hypocrisy and double standards but I'll call you on it.

Now, I can just hear you all saying BUT BUT BUT BUT......this is war......these are hunters........

How is it different? Life is a fight for survival. How is an insurgent shooting at you and a hunter shooting at you any different? This VANG guy is just like that Marine in Fallujah. Maybe he didn't mean to do it, but the fact remains that he DID DO IT.

Owatode
November 26, 2004, 00:28
Yahoo news:
Vang told investigators a member of the group shot at him first, but Lauren Hesebeck, one of two wounded hunters, said his party returned fire only after Vang shot at them, according to court records. Hesebeck's account also made no mention of racial slurs.

the gman
November 26, 2004, 02:37
Yeah that's right RRatzy, Vang did do it, just like the Marine did it & by your standards as you have posted plenty of times in N&CE, they are both guilty of MURDER, not self defence, not anything else, murder. You talk about double standards.........:? :?

Also, Vang had an option not open to Marines in Iraq, he could run away & he did so but not before he killed a bunch more unarmed folks. Tell you what Rratzy, why don't you follow your own analogy & go down to your nearest gangbanger hood & do as you have posted? Wait for them to start calling you cracker & such & then open up on all of them, even those running away or hiding behind cars, we'll all wait for the judgement to come down, hell, I'll even spend the airfare to come & watch your execution, 'cos you know that's what will happen.

Vang is a murderer, condemned by the words out of his own mouth. And BTW, there is a big difference between WAR & hunting, although it seems you are too blinded by hate/lack of intellect/spite to want to see or realise that, just another armchair commando.........:sleep:

motosapien
November 26, 2004, 07:30
Vang is a "person of interest" now in a hunting murder in Clarke county which is a few counties south of where he shot these eight people. Three asain males were seen leaving the area according to witnesses. THe hunter was shot in the back twice on his own property and his Ruger rifle stolen. This happened a couple years back and is unsolved.

An FBI guy says the odds of it being three different asain hunters is way out there. His hunting buddies when they are found are going to spend some long hours answering questions. There will also be a search of his house for that Ruger and also the gunshops he frequents to see if he traded it in.

Think of how many millions of dollars this is going to cost before it gets resolved. My money says this little prick is a murdering SOB and he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

gman552
November 26, 2004, 10:31
Originally posted by RRotz
So, if a group of gangbangers start threatening you in the hood, one of them pulls a gun and you are armed too......you are only justified in shooting the one who pulls a gun? Then what? Let the rest of them jump you and beat you to death? Or do you give them all a taste of vigilante justice?

If you have read Vang's statement, this situation did not occur - everyone was running away from him after the initial shots, not towards him.

Ok, so maybe some of them scatter and run away. Do you stop and think.....hmmm.......this one is running away to get a gun? A threat is a threat. Deal with them like the Marines in Fallujah. What if that kid was playing possum and could have pulled a handgun? Finish him off, right?

As already mentioned, Vang was a private citizen, not a soldier or police officer. He therefore had a duty to avoid further contact, and he had the ability to avoid further contact - there would have been enough distance between him and Joey Crotteau (had he not chased him down and shot him in the back) to permit him to run off into the woods, which he did anyway.

All I can say is, if a person seriously thinks this way about what constitutes self-defense (and isn't merely yanking our chains :) ), I hope he or she doesn't carry a firearm.

BTW, have they found Vang's two buddies? Hopefully they are at home in good health and not having a nice chat with their ancestors (or whatever they do in the Hmong afterlife) :(

FAL
November 26, 2004, 13:01
Originally posted by motosapien
Vang is a "person of interest" now in a hunting murder in Clarke county which is a few counties south of where he shot these eight people. Three asain males were seen leaving the area according to witnesses. THe hunter was shot in the back twice on his own property and his Ruger rifle stolen. This happened a couple years back and is unsolved.

An FBI guy says the odds of it being three different asain hunters is way out there. His hunting buddies when they are found are going to spend some long hours answering questions. There will also be a search of his house for that Ruger and also the gunshops he frequents to see if he traded it in.

Think of how many millions of dollars this is going to cost before it gets resolved. My money says this little prick is a murdering SOB and he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison. My money is telling me the same thing...

ultramagbrion
November 26, 2004, 18:16
Sure rotz.........theres not much difference tween the streets of Falujah and the woods of Wisconsin:rolleyes:

Them damn hunters got boobytraps under them orange vests ya know:rolleyes:and those coons are pretty sharp with an RPG in there little infidel paws!!

God only knows when one of them deer are gonna detonate a car-bomb:rolleyes:

But then again like Iraq ......once the combatants drop their weapons they blend right in with the surroundings:rolleyes: it makes it hard when you gotta go tree-stand to tree-stand sweeping for terrorist squirells and chipmunks.

Thank god my tour of duty is only fifteen days here in this Michigan war-zone!With all the gunfire and bullets whizzing by my head,and the possibility of getting blown up at any minute...........thousands of yards from home,and hours since Ive seen my loved ones...........Im about to go beserk from all the stress and chaos!!:rolleyes:


You really are a special kind of stupid!

RRotz
November 26, 2004, 18:29
Originally posted by the gman
Yeah that's right RRatzy, Vang did do it, just like the Marine did it & by your standards as you have posted plenty of times in N&CE, they are both guilty of MURDER, not self defence, not anything else, murder. You talk about double standards.........:? :?



So.....you agree? No take backs.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

ironman0311
November 26, 2004, 18:39
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:


It is apparent that your sole purpose on this board is to Troll and inflame on ANY subject.

BE GONE TROLL!

RRotz
November 26, 2004, 18:54
Originally posted by ironman0311
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:


It is apparent that your sole purpose on this board is to Troll and inflame on ANY subject.

BE GONE TROLL!

No, my sole purpose is to flame you, Tinman.

:love: :love: :love:

CRShooter32
November 27, 2004, 01:05
Originally posted by motosapien
Vang is a "person of interest" now in a hunting murder in Clarke county which is a few counties south of where he shot these eight people. Three asain males were seen leaving the area according to witnesses. THe hunter was shot in the back twice on his own property and his Ruger rifle stolen. This happened a couple years back and is unsolved.

An FBI guy says the odds of it being three different asain hunters is way out there. His hunting buddies when they are found are going to spend some long hours answering questions. There will also be a search of his house for that Ruger and also the gunshops he frequents to see if he traded it in.

Think of how many millions of dollars this is going to cost before it gets resolved. My money says this little prick is a murdering SOB and he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison.

Another hunter shot, and his Ruger stolen.

Claims of only one rifle found amongst the victims.

Another point, could it be possible that Vang took the guns he wanted, stashed them untill he could return when the heat was off? It would look rather suspicious of a single man leaving the woods with more than a half dozen guns, right after several other hunters were murdered in the vicinity.

I agree, the little bastard was out there to commit murder, nothing more, nothing less.

cliffy109
November 27, 2004, 10:11
I still find it curious that he removed his scope. I can think of only one reason to do this. The SKS loads from the top via 10 round stripper clips. A scope would interfere with a reload correct? Even by his account, the scope was removed prior to the first shot being fired. To me, this indicates premeditation. Even before the first shot was fired, he was already planning how best to finish the confrontation. He had already made tactical decisons about a gun battle before it even started.

Can anybody else come up with a theory as to why he would remove his scope as he was walking away?

darkknight9
November 27, 2004, 10:54
Originally posted by cliffy109
I still find it curious that he removed his scope. I can think of only one reason to do this. The SKS loads from the top via 10 round stripper clips. A scope would interfere with a reload correct? Even by his account, the scope was removed prior to the first shot being fired. To me, this indicates premeditation. Even before the first shot was fired, he was already planning how best to finish the confrontation. He had already made tactical decisons about a gun battle before it even started.

Can anybody else come up with a theory as to why he would remove his scope as he was walking away?

I just got back.

The three sks scope mounts that I have seen are the replacement top cover with high built in rings/waver base, replacement top cover that makes no allowance for iron sight usage, and the drill and tap side mount.

My first thoughts were that he might have been removing a top cover mounted scope to have easier use/access to the irons, but if he had a long scope on or the cheap provision that allows for a long scope (keeps the brass from hitting it, possibly cuts off usage of stripper clips) he may have been removing it for the purpose of reloading, or to make reloading easier.


The mood up there is unsurprisingly dark. With one of the funerals happening yesterday, and the rest coming this week, its only going to get worse. Folks who own private property up there are buying signs to post by the dozens. Lots of hunting land has been subsequently closed.

The guys on the public land are getting closer, via proximity. Theres lots of land, but there is also alot of orange almost everywhere you look. I would be honestly surprised if the number of accidental deaths doesn't rise in the next five years.

In short for now............two things that were predictable that occured:

1. "He used an sks! That thing aint meant for nothin but killin people anyway! That there sks round is military.....30-30 is much better than that round....."

2. "There better not be any !@#$%@!#$# hmong mother-@#$%$#@ donkey dic$# @#$%#@$% in my stand!!! Those damn hmongs are up here buyin everything, think they own the place, etc."



I really just want a quiet (gunfire excluded) place to hunt with no politics, no bs, and some frikkin snow. Is that too mush to ask?

cliffy109
November 27, 2004, 11:37
Originally posted by darkknight9


I really just want a quiet (gunfire excluded) place to hunt with no politics, no bs, and some frikkin snow. Is that too mush to ask?

Nope. Just make a trip to Virginia and look me up. I've got access to a 750 acre farm that is shared with exactly 6 hunters. Sounds like you could use a couple of days away from WI.

RRotz
November 27, 2004, 18:56
Originally posted by rdc01


I thought you were a Hawiian? But I see you are Chinese....explains alot regarding your state of mind. Still living at your Dad's place Herbert Kam Hung Lai.

Yeah that's Hawiian alright. Use to know a guy with the last name Trujillo that said he was Hawiian also. He was trying to make a bad situation better.

Ching Chong Lai

So what? My dad is half Hawaiian, half Chinese. Trace my roots back from 1888 when our family first came to Hawaii. I went to Kam School in Hawaii, you can't goto that school if you are not Hawaiian.

What do you make of my Filipina mother? Trujillo is a common Filipino name, asshole.

Where did your family come from? France? That makes you a frog. Maybe your family are sausage sucking krauts. Maybe you're a dirty, drunken Irishman.

Hillbillyboy Crackaman.

goofytoof
November 27, 2004, 22:47
careful bashin the irish rrotzy.

RRotz
November 27, 2004, 23:49
Originally posted by rdc01


So now your a high and might Hawaiian.

Remember we got a lot of work to do. Teaching you honor, responsibility, morals, reality and truth. It's gona be hard work, but I'm willing to put in the trouble and time to make it all worth while. Your only 29, there is still time.

I was born and raised in Alabama, you'll learn to respect that.

EMDII
November 28, 2004, 06:56
Deal with the issues here. Deal with personalities elsewhere. "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, great minds discuss ideas."
:skull:

















Or it all goes in the crapper.
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

darkknight9
November 28, 2004, 07:30
Ted,

let me know beforehand, I'd rather nuke it than see it go into db.....

an update (from an average mind ;) ) :

RICE LAKE, Wis. (AP) - Robert Crotteau and his son Joseph, who worked together and spent much of their free time enjoying the outdoors together, were mourned together Saturday, days after both were killed in a confrontation with a hunter trespassing on their land.

"To say they were two peas in a pod is an understatement, without question," said Steve Crotteau, Robert's younger brother, during the funeral at St. Joseph's Catholic Church. Dozens of floral bouquets blanketed the carpeted steps in front of the altar.

Robert Crotteau, 42, and his 20-year-old son were among six hunters killed and two wounded in a bloody confrontation that shocked neighbors in Rice Lake, a northwestern Wisconsin town of 8,500 people.

The man accused in the shootings, Chai Vang, 36, of St. Paul, Minn., remained in the Sawyer County Jail in lieu of $2.5 million bail Saturday awaiting formal charges.

Mary Jo Christensen played guitar and sang the song "Endless Love," during the funeral service, just as she did 22 years ago for the wedding of Robert and Jean Crotteau. Christensen said Jean Crotteau had asked her to reprise the wedding song.

"They loved each other," Christensen said after the service. "They watched out for each other.

Robert and Joseph Crotteau worked at a concrete and construction business in Haugen that the elder Crotteau owned.

Alex Drost, a friend of Joseph Crotteau, reminisced Saturday about the fun times he and other friends spent hunting and snowmobiling.

"We are going to miss Joe's smile, his laugh, every comment he had to make," Drost said during the funeral.

Vang, a Hmong immigrant, told authorities the hunters surrounded him and used racial slurs before one fired a shot at him. One of the survivors said Vang fired the first shot.

The Rev. David Oberts, who officiated at funerals Saturday for both the Crotteaus and Allan Laski, urged mourners to take comfort in one another and in their faith in God.

"We're drawn together by this really tragic, unexplainable event," he said during the service for Laski at Holy Trinity Catholic Church in Haugen.

Like the Crotteaus, Laski, 43, loved the outdoors, especially fishing and hunting, and even traveled out West to hunt elk. The father of three was the manager of United Building Center in Rice Lake.

Mourners crammed into the pews and packed the choir loft at Holy Trinity for Laski's funeral. His son, Adam, a high school senior, joined a group of five friends at the front of the church with his bassoon to perform "For the Beauty of the Earth."

Laski's sister, Linda Levan, read a poem entitled "Miss Me, But Let Me Go."

"When I come to the end of road and the sun has set for me, I want no rites in a gloom-filed room," she read through her tears. "Miss me a little, but not for too long, and not with your head bowed low."

Many mourners had pinned blaze-orange ribbons to their lapels and some of them attended both funerals Saturday, including the two men injured in the shooting.

Terry Willers, was released from the hospital late Wednesday after suffering gunshot wounds to the neck and shoulder in the shooting spree. Lauren Hesebeck was released from the hospital Tuesday after treatment of his wounds.

The close-knit community also faced two more funerals for the other hunters killed on the second day of Wisconsin's gun deer season.

The funerals planned are for Dennis Drew on Monday at Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church and Terry Willers' 27-year-old daughter, Jessica. on Monday at St. Joseph's.

Christensen said the community would continue to feel the pain of the loss for some time.

"So many lives have been changed forever," she said.

tigerfans2
November 28, 2004, 16:12
Originally posted by EMDII
Deal with the issues here. Deal with personalities elsewhere. "Small minds discuss people, average minds discuss events, great minds discuss ideas."
:skull:

















Or it all goes in the crapper.
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

Just for clarification oh mighty officer type moderator, with rattzy calling folks here honky's and crackers is it allowed to respond by calling him a pissant gook?
Just for clarification you understand. :wink:

EMDII
November 28, 2004, 17:26
And why do you think I was addressing any single person in particular?
:skull:

olsarg
November 28, 2004, 18:23
Moderator Don't you think this belongs in News and current events? There isn't a single entry about the great outdoors. the whole thread is about a bunch of dead people in Wisconsin and three who are alive. Sorry but we can't bring them back. If the name calling continues maybe db Thank you.

EMDII
November 28, 2004, 20:37
It's not remained a national event. The thread has degenerated to I don't know what. We'll see what happens now that I've drawn a line in the sand.

Firestarter
November 28, 2004, 21:36
Originally posted by EMDII
It's not remained a national event. The thread has degenerated to I don't know what. We'll see what happens now that I've drawn a line in the sand.

Lets just say you are very selective in what you send where. :wink:

CRShooter32
November 28, 2004, 23:47
Originally posted by darkknight9
Ted,

let me know beforehand, I'd rather nuke it than see it go into db.....

an update (from an average mind ;) ) :

RICE LAKE, Wis. (AP) - ...

Vang, a Hmong immigrant, told authorities the hunters surrounded him and used racial slurs before one fired a shot at him. One of the survivors said Vang fired the first shot.

Now this sounds really off the wall, they surrounded him, yelling slurs, then fired the first shot, so he retaliated by shooting 8 of them? Had they actually had him surrounded, fired first, and he began shooting them, I really doubt Vang wold have been the one walkng away.

darkknight9
November 30, 2004, 06:06
from local news (http://www.fox9.com)

Chai Vang charged


Two survivors of a shooting that killed six hunters say no one in the group pointed a gun at a Minnesota man before he started shooting, according to a criminal complaint filed Monday.

The complaint charged Chai Vang, 36, with killing the six hunters and trying to kill two others.

The two survivors, Terry Willers and Lauren Hesebeck, said Vang fired the first shot after a dispute over a tree stand on private land, according to the complaint.

Vang, a Hmong immigrant from St. Paul, Minn., told authorities the hunters confronted him and used racial slurs and profanity before Willers fired a shot at him Nov. 21 in Sawyer County.

Initially, Vang had told investigators he did not shoot anyone but that Willers took his gun and shot the others, then forced Vang to walk to each of the bodies, according to the complaint.

Vang then changed that story, but the complaint does not say why.

Vang remained in the Sawyer County Jail in lieu of $2.5 million bail. His initial appearance was scheduled for Tuesday.

Vang faces mandatory life sentences on six counts of first-degree intentional homicide. He also was charged with two counts of attempted homicide.

The dispute began when Willers saw Vang in a tree stand on private property where Willers and about a dozen friends were hunting. Vang told investigators he got lost while hunting.

Willers, who was carrying a rifle over his shoulder, told Vang to leave, and Hesebeck and others in the hunting party drove up on all-terrain vehicles.

Willers and Hesebeck told investigators "at no time did anyone touch the defendant, make any threatening gestures or threatened to shoot the defendant," according to the complaint.

But Hesebeck said Robert Crotteau, who owned the land, used profanity and told Vang he would report him to state authorities for trespassing, according to the complaint.

Vang began walking down a path and the hunting group started to return to a nearby cabin when Hesebeck turned to see the suspect pointing his rifle at Willers, according to the complaint.

At that point, Willers unslung his rifle and held it in front of his body but did not point it at Vang, the two survivors told investigators.

Willers yelled at Vang to put down his gun and get off the property, according to complaint.

Hesebeck and Willers said Vang then started shooting at the group, according to the complaint.

Killed in the shootout were Crotteau, 42; his son Joey Crotteau, 20; Al Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Terry Willers' daughter Jessica Willers 27; and Dennis Drew, 55. Terry Willers and Hesebeck were released from the hospital last week. All were from the Rice Lake area.

The final two funerals for the victims were held Monday, with family and friends paying tribute to Jessica Willers and Drew in separate services.

A week's passage has done little to heal the community's wounds from the shootings, the Rev. Jim Powers said in delivering the homily at Willers' service.

"Most of us are just as confused and lost and stunned as we were when we first heard about it," Powers said told several hundred mourners. "We need to work through this and we need to help others work through it."

At a different church later Monday, mourners spilled out onto the steps outside to pay respects to Drew, a father of three who was raised on a dairy farm, served in the Army in Vietnam and returned to the area to raise his family.

For the Rev. Dave Oberts, it was his fourth funeral in as many days. He said he and others were exhausted.

"I think they are completely worn out," he said. "They've been attending funerals and going all the time."

motosapien
November 30, 2004, 06:16
Vang's lawyers mentioned using a "mental state" defense so I think they have put aside any notion that this was self defense. At least one of the survivors was there when the shooting started and his story conflicts directly with Vang's.

Add to that Vang allegedly threatening his wife at gunpoint and it looks like he is unstable and quick to violence. He went berserk.

Enquiring Minds
December 02, 2004, 23:49
He was TRESPASSING, and shot the property owner. Yeah, that's defensible.

He then shot several unarmed persons IN THE BACK. Yeah, that's defensible.

No surprise that the People's Republic of Wizz has no death penalty. Those squishy-heads who voted for such nonsense will now be rewarded with paying to "rehabilitate" this psycho for the rest of his life. Time for GW to be a stand-up guy and prosecute this whacko under the Federal system.


PS: I can see why so many Hmong immigrated to Minnesota, i.e. the tropical climate in MN reminds them of SE Asia. :rofl:

darkknight9
December 03, 2004, 06:13
Originally posted by Enquiring Minds

PS: I can see why so many Hmong immigrated to Minnesota, i.e. the tropical climate in MN reminds them of SE Asia. :rofl:

LOL!!!!

This is my dad's favorite comment. He routinely mentions that their homeland looked nothing like MN when he was there on his government sponsored vacation back in the late 60's.

:D :rofl:

Stranger
December 03, 2004, 08:37
Originally posted by mark214


.......................
According to autopsy findings contained in the complaint, Mark Roidt, 28, died of a gunshot wound to the head. Dennis Drew, 55, died of a gunshot wound to the abdomen that entered through his left side. Robert Crotteau, 42, died of a single wound to the lower back. His son Joey Crotteau, 20, died after he was shot four times in the back. Laski, 43, and Willers, 27, died after they were both shot three times in the back.

Come on, Jerrod, I want to see you explain this one away.

You and Rocky have a lot in common. BTW, how is that gattling-gun-mount-on-a-ford-escort project going? I figure you must be Rocky's project design manager.

darkknight9
December 03, 2004, 09:30
From local news (http://kare11.com)

His wrists handcuffed and his ankles shackled, Chai Vang shuffled into a makeshift courtroom Tuesday, sat upright in a plastic chair and crisply answered a judge's questions, on charges he fatally shot six deer hunters.

Vang, a 36-year-old truck driver from St. Paul, Minn., showed little emotion -- no tears, no smiles -- during a five-minute hearing in a basement classroom at the Sawyer County Sheriff's Department. The day before, prosecutors filed charges accusing him of intentionally killing six hunters and trying to kill two others after a confrontation over trespassing on private land.

"Yes," Vang responded, when Sawyer County Circuit Judge Norman Yackel asked whether he understood the allegations detailed in a 14-page criminal complaint and the possible punishments, life in prison.

"No, your honor," Vang replied when asked whether he was under the influence of any drugs.

Yackel asked about his schooling. "A two-year college," the Hmong immigrant and father of six said, his accented voice calm and steady in his first public appearance since the Nov. 21 shootings in the woods about 35 miles south of here.

According to the criminal complaint, two survivors of the shootings, Terry Willers and Lauren Hesebeck, said Vang fired the first shot after a dispute over his use of a tree stand on land owned by Willers and another hunter who was shot.

Vang, a deer hunter since 1992, told authorities the hunters confronted him and used racial slurs and profanity before Willers fired the first shot, according to the complaint.

During Tuesday's hearing, the judge asked Vang eight questions, including whether he read and understood English. Vang, who came to the United States from Laos more than 20 years ago, said he did.

When Yackel asked whether Vang was under the care of a psychiatrist or psychologist the past six months, Vang paused and his attorney Steven Kohn answered.

"I believe that Mr. Vang is certainly mentally competent ... for these proceedings," the attorney said.

Later, Kohn declined to elaborate but cautioned reporters not to read too much into the comment.

Yackel scheduled a preliminary hearing Dec. 26, when prosecutors would present evidence to try to persuade the judge a felony was committed and a trial warranted.

Vang's attorneys said they're thinking about waiving that hearing, which would let Vang immediately enter a plea to the charges.

Bond remained at $2.5 million. Each of the six counts of first-degree intentional homicide carries a mandatory life prison sentence.

Killed were Robert Crotteau, 42; his son Joey Crotteau, 20; Al Laski, 43; Mark Roidt, 28; Willers' daughter Jessica Willers 27; and Dennis Drew, 55.

Terry Willers, 47, and Hesebeck, 48, were released from the hospital last week. All were from the Rice Lake area, where area churches planned a community prayer service at the high school Tuesday night.

Tuesday's hearing took place in a basement classroom, as the judge sat at a wooden desk, much like a teacher would. Prosecutors, Vang and his attorneys sat in plastic chairs at folding tables. Vang wore a jail jump suit, the color similar to the blaze orange of hunting jackets.

Taped to the wall behind the judge in the sparse room was a banner reading "Truth and Justice," apparently printed from a computer.

No family members of Vang or the victims were at the courthouse, Sheriff's Lt. Kurt Barthel said.

Yackel said he held the hearing at the jail because making the courthouse and regular courtroom secure would take "massive efforts."

"The safety of all concerned is of primary importance," the judge said.

In nearby Clark County, investigators last week said they were looking into a possible connection between Vang and the unsolved killing of a man who was shot in the back twice as he hunted alone on family land.

Sawyer County Sheriff James Meier said Tuesday that Vang has not made any admissions regarding that case.

Meier also said investigators talked to two people who went hunting with Vang on Nov. 21. They told investigators the three went into the woods at 5:30 a.m. and "almost immediately became separated and have not seen him since," Meier said. "They were not involved in the homicides."

darkknight9
December 06, 2004, 22:47
Somewhat related:

From a post on sturmgehwer.com

WASHINGTON -- November 29 -- SKS assault rifles like the one reported to
> have been used to murder five hunters and wound three others in Wisconsin
> over the weekend are a primary threat to police, the Violence Policy
> Center (VPC) reported today. So far in 2004, at least six law enforcement
> officers have been slain by SKSs. In the wake of the shooting, the VPC
> called on President George W. Bush today to use the Administration's
> executive authority over firearm imports to fully ban the import of all
> foreign-made assault rifles. Such an action would not require
> Congressional approval. The Bush Administration has specifically
> authorized the importation of SKS assault rifles from both Yugoslavia and
> Albania.
> "Armed hunters were no match for one person firing an SKS assault rifle,"
> said Kristen Rand, VPC legislative director. "This sad incident
> illustrates why the SKS is also a leading cop-killing rifle in America
> today."
> Rand pointed out that the SKS assault rifle was not covered by the
> recently expired 1994 federal assault weapons ban. The VPC criticized the
> 1994 law as inadequate and favors enactment of a tougher version of the
> law that would ban the SKS and many other assault weapons that easily
> slipped through the old law's loopholes.
> "Even though the 1994 law was easily circumvented by the gun industry,
> Congress has failed to move on a strong replacement law. President Bush
> could, with the stroke of a pen, tighten the import ban and stop the
> import of all foreign-made assault rifles," Rand said.
> She noted that both the President's father, former-President George H.W.
> Bush, and former-President William J. Clinton stopped the import of
> hundreds of thousands of assault weapons by using their executive
> authority under firearms import and trade laws. Under the current Bush
> Administration, specific foreign-made assault rifles, including some SKSs,
> have returned to the marketplace.
> For more information on the SKS assault rifle and the use of it and other
> assault weapons against law enforcement personnel, please visit
> www.vpc.org.
> The Violence Policy Center is a national non-profit educational foundation
> that conducts research on violence in America and works to develop
> violence-reduction policies and proposals. The Center examines the role of
> firearms in America, conducts research on firearms violence, and explores
> new ways to decrease firearm-related death and injury.


(HOMER) Urge to kill.....rising!!!(/HOMER)

ThunderGod
December 15, 2004, 13:21
Any updates on this?